Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

You are the one saying the day is judgement day not me. Now prove using the context of Heb 10:25 that judgement day fits the context.

I already did, I sighted the Ignatius Catholic study Bible. If Dr. Scott Hahn’s commentary says that is a valid possible interpretation ( not the only one) then I’m confident the Catholic Church has no objections.

Now prove that you are correct. As I pointed out the Catechism does not reference the end of the verse, so if you are going to be so huffy about there can only be one interpretation, then prove it.

My goodness, I even agreed your interpretation was valid, why are you being so difficult about this? Neither interpretation is heretical.

God Bless

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You are the one saying the day is judgement day not me. Now prove using the context of Heb 10:25 that judgement day fits the context.

I already did, I sighted the Ignatius Catholic study Bible. If Dr. Scott Hahn’s commentary says that is a valid possible interpretation ( not the only one) then I’m confident the Catholic Church has no objections.

Now prove that you are correct. As I pointed out the Catechism does not reference the end of the verse, so if you are going to be so huffy about there can only be one interpretation, then prove it.

My goodness, I even agreed your interpretation was valid, why are you being so difficult about this? Neither interpretation is heretical.

God Bless

No one knows when judgement day is. So How then can anyone be guilty of not meeting on judgement day, as is already the habit of some, if no body knows when judgement day is…

Re: Scott’s commentary
“In Hebrews at 10:19 it states that “by the blood of Jesus” we “have confidence to enter the sanctuary.” We have this great blessing then, merited by our Covenant Mediator, Jesus Christ (which those in the Old Covenant did not have), to participate in the Eucharistic liturgy whereby through the sacrificial offering of Jesus’ body and blood we can truly access the “marriage supper of the Lamb” in Heaven (see Rev. 19:9 and commentary to Hebrews 10 in Ignatius Catholic Study Bible). Thus, given the magnitude of this blessing, *the author of Hebrews admonishes his readers “not [to neglect] to meet together” for the Sunday assembly (Hebrews 10:25). He adds: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment….” (Hebrews 10:26). Dr Hahn comments on these verses: **
“People who don’t meet together on the Lord’s day are repudiating the only sacrifice that will work for their sins. The sinning deliberately refers to deliberately sinning by not going to Mass. We don’t know anybody who has committed that sin, do we? All American Catholics go to Mass every week. It hasn’t become the habit of some Catholics not to go to the Eucharist, has it? God help us if we don’t attend weekly liturgy as has become the habit of some. We’re sinning against the most beautiful laws that God has delivered to humanity, that there is a once and for all powerful sacrifice, God be praised! And we renew that sacrifice every time we draw near to the Eucharistic banquet.” (See link below and CCC 2178) …”
From SCRIPTURE SAYS “KEEP THE FEAST”; DON’T SKIP SUNDAY MASS | Catholic Strength

 

[guanophore]

I gave my sources properly referenced.

Yes, of course. Finding support for your position with references is noble. Your conclusion does not contradict the teaching of the church, and the Church does not require us to interpret the passage this way.

Non sense.

It is usually most difficult for us to see in ourselves what we most object to in others. It is human nature.

Okay, this is the perfect place to give those voluminous references.

I don’t think so, but if you want to start a thread I will do so.

“the Day” of assembly is already known.

The direct object of the verb is the assembly, not the Day.

How else can those who don’t meet on that day, be guilty of not meeting on that day and warned about the consequences for not meeting on that day, unless they know what day it is?

There are consequences for neglecting the assembly. There is nothing about the day on which that assembly occurs.

Maybe because YOU are pushing that view

Ok, I will drop it, then. I have conceded that your private interpretation, though not consistent with any scholarship or theology, is also not contradictory to the Teaching of the Church. It is also not in contradiction to the concept that the reference to the Day here is the Day of Jesus coming.

really?

Please explain.

The author is writing to people who have neglected the assembly of themselves together. Possibly on the mistaken notion that judgment is nigh, so there is no need to assemble.

Really?

So you know when judgement day Was? Okay when was it? I want to know the exact day, month, and year.

The author is reminding the readers that judgment Day draws near, as is said in many other passages. Since none of us know when that Day is, we should not neglect the assembly of ourselves together. We are to encourage one another to be in assembly.

@MT1926 is right, one does not need to know the exact time to understand the passage is telling us we are not to neglect assembling ourselves together, even if we do believe judgment Day is near.

 

[guanophore]

You are the one saying the day is judgement day not me. Now prove using the context of Heb 10:25 that judgement day fits the context.

This is not necessary, as either interpretation is acceptable. Your “shoehorn” of making it Sunday does not contradict the teaching of the Church. Anyway, such “proof” is not on the thread topic.

Now prove that you are correct. As I pointed out the Catechism does not reference the end of the verse, so if you are going to be so huffy about there can only be one interpretation, then prove it.

My goodness, I even agreed your interpretation was valid, why are you being so difficult about this? Neither interpretation is heretical.

Let’s not encourage him to derail the thread.

Re: Scott’s commentary

So can we all just agree?

 

[MT1926]

Re: Scott’s commentary

It’s Dr. Scott Hahn

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God…7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

No one knows when judgement day is. So How then can anyone be guilty of not meeting on judgement day, as is already the habit of some, if no body knows when judgement day is…

I totally understand what you are saying here, but your question is based on your personal interpretation of the verse. The point you are trying to make only backs up your personal interpretation. It’s a circular argument.

I enjoyed the link you posted. It was very informative opinion piece. However, you did not do your research and you are taking the article out of context. The article was written by Tom Mulcahy, M.A. It is easy to see that this is an OPINION piece based on Dr. Hahn’s writings. Your quote includes both Dr. Hahn’s work and the authors opinions.

Thus, given the magnitude of this blessing, *the author of Hebrews admonishes his readers “not [to neglect] to meet together” for the Sunday assembly (Hebrews 10:25). He adds: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment….” (Hebrews 10:26). Dr Hahn comments on these verses: **

Notice how neither Dr. Hahn’s writings nor the author make reference to the portion of the verse that you are arguing. “All the more as you see the day draw near.”

I would like to add that the bolded portion is in none of Dr. Hahn’s writings resourced by the author. It is emphasis added by the author.

I grabbed Dr. Hahn’s book The Lamb’s Supper off the shelf and did a quick scan for the references in the article and came up empty. I was able to find the other resources here…

Eucharist, Holy Meal

It’s a great read if you haven’t read it yet. However, it never really goes into any interpretation of the “Day”.

Your opinion is valid, probable and logical, but in the end it is just your opinion.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

You may want to check your translation here

It certainly sounds like you checked your interpretation, tgG! This post sounds like something plagiarized out of the work of Dr. Thomas L. Constable,

Never met him until today on U-Tube. Dallas Theological Seminary is a fine institution and I’m sure Dr. Constable is a fine theologian.

This is an amazing commentary on a world view that is very different from that of the Apostles. For them, a good tree bore good frut, and a bad tree bore bad fruit, and those who are in Christ are no longer slaves to sin (act in a way where the inner man did not participate}.

So when Paul said “it was not him” who sinned he meant what?.. (Ro. 7:17)

guanophore,… you criticize a lot but you rarely refute.

 

[opulumpu]

We die unless we repent.

I understand you to mean that if we repent we do not die; is that correct? So if I have repented, do I go on living forever?

 

[ltwin]

I understand you to mean that if we repent we do not die; is that correct? So if I have repented, do I go on living forever?

I’m speaking of spiritual death. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam and Eve “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” He was not speaking of physical death, since Adam and Eve kept on living. They died spiritually because sin separates us from God.

Romans 6:23 states, " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Death here obviously means spiritual death and eternal separation from God. In Ephesians 4:18, Paul puts it this way: those without Christ are “alienated from the life of God.” Mankind is spiritually dead, but those who place their faith in Christ have the life of Christ. We live by the Spirit. As Paul explains in Colossians 2:

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

So, to be clear, the consequence of sin is spiritual death, which is separation from God. True faith is always accompanied by repentance. No, we will not be perfect, and when we sin, God is merciful to forgive us in Christ Jesus. He will also give us the ability to turn from our sin and to grow in holiness by changing our affections and desires.

When we are truly regenerated or converted, there is a change that occurs in our hearts. Where we once delighted in sin, now we hate it and resist it (not always successfully but the will to resist is there because we know that sin offends God and therefore it now offends us). This is because God has written His laws on our hearts and inscribed them on our minds (Hebrews 10:16).

 

[steve-b]

The direct object of the verb is the assembly, not the Day.

steve-b:

Scott Hahn’s commentary

the author of Hebrews admonishes his readers “not [to neglect] to meet together” for the Sunday assembly (Hebrews 10:25). He adds: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment….” (Hebrews 10:26). Dr Hahn comments on these verses: **
“People who don’t meet together on the Lord’s day are repudiating the only sacrifice that will work for their sins. The sinning deliberately refers to deliberately sinning by not going to Mass. We don’t know anybody who has committed that sin, do we? All American Catholics go to Mass every week. It hasn’t become the habit of some Catholics not to go to the Eucharist, has it?

Are you still going to keep your narrative going after this?

Scott continues

God help us if we don’t attend weekly liturgy as has become the habit of some.

[snip for space]

please read From SCRIPTURE SAYS “KEEP THE FEAST”; DON’T SKIP SUNDAY MASS | Catholic Strength

guanophore:

The author is reminding the readers that judgment Day draws near, …

@MT1926 is right, one does not need to know the exact time to understand the passage is telling us we are not to neglect assembling ourselves together, even if we do believe judgment Day is near.

Please read Eucharist, Holy Meal

starting with

"Turn with me now to Hebrews 10 and here is where we will draw our conclusions. Verse 19, “Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus…” It’s because of that Eucharist and because of Christ the High Priest offering Himself that I’ve got confidence to draw near to the presence of God. That’s how John could do it. That’s why the scroll’s seals could be broken open.

We have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living language He opened for us through the curtain, that is, through His flesh, His flesh and blood. When were they offered? His body and blood were offered when He instituted the New Covenant in the Upper Room. “And since we have a great High Priest over the family of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith with our hearts sprinkled clean, a reference to Baptism, from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering for he who promised is faithful, and let us consider how to stir up one another in love and good works.” Amen! Let’s do it.

[snip for space]

“The Lord’s day, from the earliest times, was the regular meeting for the people of God. Even the Romans tell us that early on Sunday morning they would get together. …”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Re: Scott’s commentary

It’s Dr. Scott Hahn

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God…7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

No one knows when judgement day is. So How then can anyone be guilty of not meeting on judgement day, as is already the habit of some, if no body knows when judgement day is…

I totally understand what you are saying here, but your question is based on your personal interpretation of the verse. The point you are trying to make only backs up your personal interpretation. It’s a circular argument.

I have no idea how this is not getting through to you. I’m giving my sources all properly referenced. This is NOT my personal interpretation. Questions about when people get "saved" - #1203 by steve-b

Mt1926:

I enjoyed the link you posted. It was very informative opinion piece. However, you did not do your research and you are taking the article out of context. The article was written by Tom Mulcahy, M.A. It is easy to see that this is an OPINION piece based on Dr. Hahn’s writings. Your quote includes both Dr. Hahn’s work and the authors opinions.

steve-b:

It’s YOU who are taking liberties not me. That’s why I quote the links. People can read the points for themselves.

Thus, given the magnitude of this blessing, *the author of Hebrews admonishes his readers “not [to neglect] to meet together” for the Sunday assembly (Hebrews 10:25). He adds: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment….” (Hebrews 10:26). Dr Hahn comments on these verses: **

Mt1926:

Notice how neither Dr. Hahn’s writings nor the author make reference to the portion of the verse that you are arguing. “All the more as you see the day draw near.”

I would like to add that the bolded portion is in none of Dr. Hahn’s writings resourced by the author. It is emphasis added by the author.

I grabbed Dr. Hahn’s book The Lamb’s Supper off the shelf and did a quick scan for the references in the article and came up empty. I was able to find the other resources here…

Eucharist, Holy Meal

It’s a great read if you haven’t read it yet. However, it never really goes into any interpretation of the “Day”.

Your opinion is valid, probable and logical, but in the end it is just your opinion.

God Bless

What I notice, you still ,even given my direct links, still read back your opinions onto the link.

Yes I have the lambs supper by Scott. And my quotes and references which I quote, are all properly referenced. All one has to do is open them

 

[MT1926]

I have no idea how this is not getting through to you. I’m giving my sources all properly referenced. This is NOT my personal interpretation. Questions about when people get “saved”

The reason your not getting through to me is because I can plainly see that none of your sources sights the second half of the verse. Not to mention I have already given you Dr. Hahn’s Bible commentary where he sights and gives additional meaning to the second half of the verse.

Can you explain why you are unwilling to accept Dr. Hahn’s Bible commentary here when you use his work to try to prove your point?

It’s YOU who are taking liberties not me. That’s why I quote the links. People can read the points for themselves.

I accept all of the links and spent time reading everything you posted. Did you do the same for me and take the time to read Dr. Hahn’s commentary in the Ignatius Study Bible? or are you so rooted in your position that you are unwilling to read and contemplate anything I have posted?

What I notice, you still ,even given my direct links, still read back your opinions onto the link.

How is me stating the links never sight the part of the verse stating the “Day” me making an opinion? I’m just stating a fact. Point out in your links where it sights the end of the verse and I will agree that your opinion can be the only valid one.

Yes I have the lambs supper by Scott. And my quotes and references which I quote, are all properly referenced. All one has to do is open them

I already did. Didn’t find it. Maybe I missed it. Could you please tell me which page number Dr. Hahn states the “DAY” is Sunday?

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

“The Lord’s day, from the earliest times, was the regular meeting for the people of God. Even the Romans tell us that early on Sunday morning they would get together. …”

Yes, but it was not the only day of the week that they gathered.

"With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart, " Acts. 2;46

In fact, one reason that Constantine wanted the Council of Nicea so badly is that he wanted the Bishops to choose either Sat. or Sun. Half the empire citizens wanted the day off for worship on Sat and the other half wanted Sunday so it meant that the Marketplace was closed or nearly closed two days out of the week and it was bad for commerce.

 

[guanophore]

I have no idea how this is not getting through to you. I’m giving my sources all properly referenced. This is NOT my personal interpretation.

I understand that others share it with you.

Yes I have the lambs supper by Scott. And my quotes and references which I quote, are all properly referenced. All one has to do is open them

You seem to think that, when we read the links, that we must necessarily agree with them.

you so rooted in your position that you are unwilling to read and contemplate anything I have posted

It is ok. It is an acceptable interpretation, just the same as understanding “the Day” as judgment day.

 

[steve-b]

I have already given you Dr. Hahn’s Bible commentary where he sights and gives additional meaning to the second half of the verse.

steve-b:

AFTER Heb 10:25 takes place, the Lord’s Day, the Day of meeting, to celebrate the Eucharist, THAT is the Day some are deliberately missing. And if they don’t correct this, judgement day is coming.

That is Scott’s point.

Mt1926:

Can you explain why you are unwilling to accept Dr. Hahn’s Bible commentary here when you use his work to try to prove your point?

steve-b:

Where does he contradict himself

Mt1926:

I accept all of the links and spent time reading everything you posted. Did you do the same for me and take the time to read Dr. Hahn’s commentary in the Ignatius Study Bible? or are you so rooted in your position that you are unwilling to read and contemplate anything I have posted?

Scott refers to Sunday AND judgement separately. They aren’t the same day.

Mt1926:

Point out in your links where it sights the end of the verse and I will agree that your opinion can be the only valid one.
Could you please tell me which page number Dr. Hahn states the “DAY” is Sunday?

(All emphasis mine)

Re: the commentary to Hebrews 10 in the Ignatius Study Bible. … for the Sunday assembly (Hebrews 10:25).

He adds: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment….” then -----> (Hebrews 10:26) Scott uses some sarcasm

“People who don’t meet together on the Lord’s day are repudiating the only sacrifice that will work for their sins. The sinning deliberately refers to deliberately sinning by not going to Mass. We don’t know anybody who has committed that sin, do we? All American Catholics go to Mass every week. It hasn’t become the habit of some Catholics not to go to the Eucharist, has it? God help us if we don’t attend weekly liturgy as has become the habit of some. We’re sinning against the most beautiful laws that God has delivered to humanity, that there is a once and for all powerful sacrifice, God be praised! And we renew that sacrifice every time we draw near to the Eucharistic banquet.”

That quote is from Scott’s commentary from the Ignatius study bible. He identifies, Eucharist, Lord’s Day, Mass, don’t attend weekly liturgy as is the habit of some, in that section of Heb 10.

What is the Lord’s day? Would / did Scott deny it is Sunday?

Scott’s point is

If a person continues missing mass, on Sunday, as is the habit of some, THEN judgement awaits THEM.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I have no idea how this is not getting through to you. I’m giving my sources all properly referenced. This is NOT my personal interpretation.

I understand that others share it with you.

Yes I have the lambs supper by Scott. And my quotes and references which I quote, are all properly referenced. All one has to do is open them

You seem to think that, when we read the links, that we must necessarily agree with them.

And THAT’S the real issue… agreed?

 

[guanophore]

And THAT’S the real issue… agreed?

No, I don’t think so. As I said, both interpretations of the words “the Day” are acceptable and do not conflict with Catholic teaching.