Questions/Challenges to the moral influence atonement theory

[Michael_Mayo]

It is therefore “necessary” for a mediator between God and man because man cannot bridge the gap on his own. Enter Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man. He offers a sacrifice to the Father both as man (but without blemish or stain of sin), and as God (an infinite perfect sacrifice, once for all). Thus His sacrifice is “effective” because it both appeases the Father and redeems mankind through his mediation and bridges the gap between God and man.

“appeases the Father” it is this that makes God seem little. God must be “appeased”?

He redeems by being the perfect example of love that hold “nothing back”, yes.

Not purchased from “Whom”, rather purchased from “What”? “Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:33-34 also Galatians 4:3).

We are purchased from the bondage of sin and death which mankind cannot overcome on our own.

Maybe “purchase” is a bad metaphor. It involves a transaction between two parties with an exchange. Sin is not bartered with. It is we who are changed. We cannot be changed unless we have a relationship with Jesus. Then we have the grace to walk away from sin. There is no other transaction.

I like your analysis of penal substitution but I think it is often assumed as an aspect of the sacrifice

 

[Matthew_Light]

Thank you. Have you read Salvifici Doloris? Please do.

Will do so, thanks!

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

“appeases the Father” it is this that makes God seem little. God must be “appeased”?

I didn’t like the word when I first wrote it, but I still can’t think of a better one. In the Garden of Eden, Satan sold the lie that God was holding back from humanity. That he didn’t have their best interest in mind. God was accused by Satan and insulted (for lack of a better word) by man when they believed the lie. Jesus is the definitive answer to that lie and insult.

I don’t know if this is correct or not, but it is kind of how I see it. It is not the Father who “demands restitution” or “appeasement”, rather it is the Son who demands restitution for the Father’s sake out of love for the Father to restore his good name in justice to the Father. I think also in our own judgment, it will be the Father, in justice to the Son, who will say “how could you treat my Son with such disdain. There is a place reserved for you but not in my kingdom.” Again, I don’t know if that is correct or not, but to me it seems to fit.

Maybe “purchase” is a bad metaphor. It involves a transaction between two parties with an exchange. Sin is not bartered with. It is we who are changed. We cannot be changed unless we have a relationship with Jesus. Then we have the grace to walk away from sin. There is no transaction.

Actually that’s the language of the scriptures. ”You are not your own, you were bought with a price” (1 Cor 6:20). In Salvifici Doloris it also speaks of “Christ’s suffering, which became the price of the Redemption” (Post #12).

He redeems by being the perfect example of love that holds “nothing back”, yes.

How does Jesus’ example redeem you? How does having a relationship with Jesus “change” you? How was the grace to walk away from sin obtained? How is that grace applied to you?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I didn’t like the word when I first wrote it, but I still can’t think of a better one. In the Garden of Eden, Satan sold the lie that God was holding back from humanity. That he didn’t have their best interest in mind. God was accused by Satan and insulted (for lack of a better word) by man when they believed the lie. Jesus is the definitive answer to that lie and insult.

Believing the lie insults God. Ok I am with you.

I don’t know if this is correct or not, but it is kind of how I see it. It is not the Father who “demands restitution” or “appeasement”, rather it is the Son who demands restitution for the Father’s sake out of love for the Father to restore his good name in justice to the Father. I think also in our own judgment, it will be the Father, in justice to the Son, who will say “how could you treat my Son with such disdain. There is a place reserved for you but not in my kingdom.” Again, I don’t know if that is correct or not, but to me it seems to fit.

I like that initiative of the Son for the Father’s sake. But restitution needs to come not only from Satan but also from Humanity for believing the lie and insulting the Father. But again crucifying the Son only puts us deeper in the hole.

Actually that’s the language of the scriptures. ”You are not your own, you were bought with a price” (1 Cor 6:20). In Salvifici Doloris it also speaks of “Christ’s suffering, which became the price of the Redemption” (Post #12).

I chalk it up to the inadequacy of language. “Price” is related to “cost” and is a way of expressing sacrifice or giving something up. Persevering with his mission in spite of opposition.

How does Jesus’ example redeem you? How does having a relationship with Jesus “change” you? How was the grace to walk away from sin obtained? How is that grace applied to you?

His example redeems me because he, at least, is one human who did something right. He redeems us in the sense that he shows us what humans are capable of doing. And that inspires us as well. Having a relationship with Jesus is mystical. We can only begin to speculate on how he helps us through grace in all kinds of ways. We don’t even see or recognize it all. We can feel his presence and that gives us strength and even when we cannot feel his presence he gives us an even subtler strength to persevere. Grace to walk away from sin is obtained through motivation and inspiration. We see it can be done and we want to make that walk. Grace is favor. Strength, inspiration, and motivation are results of that grace because grace or favor are tastes of love. With that taste of love, and the realization that he went to the cross because of love (persevering with his mission to proclaim the Kingdom regardless of the consequences), our own hearts are inflamed with love. All of that seems to me to be a most suitable means of pleasing the Father far more than something like an innocent lamb. Jesus indeed is the Lamb that was Slain. Just how that “purchases” anyone is a mystery to me. Purchased from whom? “Sin?” Then I ask you, How?

How else can Jesus redeem us? Save us? Change us?

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo:

His example redeems me because he, at least, is one human who did something right. He redeems us in the sense that he shows us what humans are capable of doing.

In the book of Hebrews Chapter 11, there is a list of people from the Old Testament who “received divine approval” (Heb 11:3). We also know that Zachariah and Elizabeth were both “righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless” (Luke 1:6). These are just the ones written of, who knows how many others unwritten of also were approved of in the eyes of God without Jesus’ example. But, Hebrews 11 concludes with “though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised…[and were] not made perfect” (Heb 11:40). Moses talked face to face with God so that his face radiated God’s glory (Exodus 34:29-30). David was a man after God’s own heart (1 Sam 13:14), and yet they were not “made perfect”. We also know that “nothing unclean (imperfect) shall enter into [heaven], nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood” (Rev 21:27). Heaven is closed to all mankind, even those who are righteous before God, because they are not perfect. Notice in Revelation 21:27 the reference to both the practice of abomination or falsehood (personal sin), and being “unclean” apart from personal sin (reference to original sin). As the Catechism states: “Original Sin is a sin “contracted” and not “committed”- a state and not an act” (CCC #404). A very basic definition of sin is separation from God. All of Mankind is in the state of sin contracted from Adam. All of Mankind is in a state of separation from God from the moment of each individual’s conception in the womb. “For the judgment following one trespass brought…. Condemnation for all men” (Rom 5:16, 18).

How do we know that mankind is in a “state of sin” contracted from Adam from the moment of conception? We know that death is the punishment for sin (Gen 2:17) and “In Adam all die” (1 Cor 15:22). Even the newborn baby who never committed a personal sin, can still suffer and die. If that child is not in a state of sin, that child should not die until he commits a personal sin. If that child is not in a state of sin, then God judges and condemns all men, even the innocent, to physically die for something which is false.

This leads to two options: Option 1 that all men are in a state of sin even though they may have not committed a personal sin. Option 2 that God is vindictive and cruel and directly causes suffering and death on some innocent people for no reason. Since Jesus is the image of the Father (Col 1:15, John 14:9), and we are in agreement that Jesus is perfect love, option 2 cannot be true. Therefore all men are in a state of sin from the moment of conception and as such are unclean and unable to enter into heaven (Rev 21:27).

We also know that the righteous people from the Old Testament prior to Christ are “made perfect”, not apart from Christians, but in union with Christians (Heb 11:39-40 and Heb 12:23). Prior to Jesus, no one enters heaven. After Jesus, heaven is now possible for all mankind. Jesus did something concretely and objectively that made it possible for all men to be made perfect and thus enter into heaven. Not only for those who followed after him by example, imitation, and participation; but also those who could not follow his example because they lived prior to him. Therefore, since men are redeemed who never followed Jesus’ example, it is not Jesus’ example which redeems all of mankind.

One thing we know to be true, because it is divine revelation from God, is that Jesus’ passion and death is what redeems mankind from our original state of sin. The animal sacrifices in the OT were commanded by God in order to prepare them for the truth of the true sacrifice which would redeem them. Redemption through the passion and death of the Messiah is foretold by the OT prophets. It is attested to as being fulfilled in the NT from the declaration of John the Baptist, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”, to the plain statement of St. Paul, “In Christ we have redemption through his blood” (Eph 1:7) and again in 1 Peter 2:24 “…and by his wounds you have been healed”.

Jesus was free from all sin and free from the state of Original Sin. Jesus literally could not suffer and die unless he chose to because suffering and death is the result of separation from the source of life, God, due to sin. Therefore his death was not an “inevitable consequence of sin” because that would still be an unjust punishment in a similar manner as penal substitution. Jesus has authority from the Father to lay down his life in suffering and death (John 10:18) despite being innocent, and in that sense to be “made sin for our sake” (2 Cor 5:21). A perfect offering, not an inevitable consequence.

From the Catechism: “The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplished “once for all” by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ” (CCC #571).

The crucifixion of Jesus is indeed the central Gospel message. “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews, and folly to the Gentiles” (1 Cor 1:23). How exactly it all works is somewhat of a mystery, nevertheless we can know it to be true because it has been revealed and attested to by God to be true and we can give the assent of faith even though we do not fully understand this mystery. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men” (1 Cor 1:25).

 

[spiderweb]

Originally Posted by Michael mayo:

Having a relationship with Jesus is mystical. We can only begin to speculate on how he helps us through grace in all kinds of ways. We don’t even see or recognize it all. We can feel his presence and that gives us strength and even when we cannot feel his presence he gives us an even subtler strength to persevere. Grace to walk away from sin is obtained through motivation and inspiration.

Agreed that we can not even imagine how God helps us through grace in all kinds of ways. We cannot even take our next breath except by the grace of God. This type of grace was and is poured out to mankind from the very beginning to “believers” and “non-believers” alike. This is what the Church calls “actual graces” which refers to God’s interventions seen abundantly in the Old and New Testaments. Actual grace is not enough to obtain heaven which is why no one from the OT can enter heaven prior to Jesus. They need something more and so do we. They need “Sanctifying Grace”, the grace that can make them “perfect”. “How” this is applied to people who lived prior to Christ in the OT, we do not know, only that it is applied to them in a way known only to God. For the Christian however, this is objectively and concretely applied to us through baptism where the original state of sin and any personal sins are washed away and we are infused with a supernatural state of holiness or sanctification (Acts 22:16). It is by baptism that we objectively become members of the body of Christ and receive the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). Through baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit, we objectively receive sonship and become children of God, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ (Rom 8:15-17). Without baptism, no matter how perfectly we live our life, we cannot obtain heaven because we are still in the state of sin from Adam, and not born again into life in Christ. Jesus merited this sanctifying grace for us through his suffering and death. He established the ordinary way how this grace is applied to each of us through baptism. It is necessary that we receive this grace even for infants because we are all born in a state of sin and separation from God.

It is only after receiving sanctifying grace that we are capable of participating with Christ. Until that point, we are still in a state of sin and because of that barrier we could imitate him, but could not participate with him. Although after baptism we objectively are in a state of grace, what we do with that grace becomes a different matter. Do we reject it through sin? Or grow in it through a life of virtue and a deepening relationship with God. It is at this point where everything you mentioned comes into play. A heart enflamed with love, repentance for sins, imitation and participation in and with Jesus and the Godhead who dwells within you through sanctifying grace, etc. Yes, this is what God wants, but we cannot achieve that when we are in a state of sin, which is why we must first receive the free gift of sanctifying grace from God which is his doing lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).

Jesus indeed is the Lamb that was slain. Just how that “purchases” anyone is a mystery to me. Purchased from whom? “Sin?” Then I ask you, How?

How else can Jesus redeem us? Save us? Change us?

Adam “sold” his friendship with God. God is eternal life. In a sense, Adam “sold” eternal life and “purchased” death for all mankind. Jesus reversed that and “purchased” eternal life for mankind through “selling” his own life. I think the understanding of this is best expressed in Matthew 16:24-26 in terms of “gain” and “forfeit”. The barter system is the wrong idea.

Jesus redeemed all of mankind by meriting sanctifying grace through his suffering and death. There is no other means of redemption. Eternal life is now possible for all humanity through that grace.

We are “saved” when sanctifying grace is applied to the individual in baptism through Faith.

Sanctifying grace is always working to bring us closer to God. It works to strengthen our wills, increases Faith, Hope, and Love. Helps to make our wills more in line with God’s will. It is strengthened through the sacraments and by living the virtues, and lost through unrepentant serious sin (yes, you can lose your salvation). Actual grace helps us avoid sin, perform the works that God desires from us, nudges us in the right directions, helps us to repent when we sin, etc. Both of these types of graces work together to change us and to perfect us provided that we cooperate with those graces. When we cooperate with those graces we are objectively “living in Christ” by Grace through imitation and participation in Faith.

How all that works for certain, we will never fully understand in this life, but because we believe in Jesus Christ, and no lie is in him, we know that it does work because it is his work and he has spoken it.

I know that was a lot. I hope it makes some sense.

 

[fred_conty]

St. Anselm taught that Jesus, being God, is the only person adquate to pay the price of sin which is a Godly offense. And Jesus, being man, he was able to pay as a man for all mankind.

The theory of St. Anselm, tho not condemned, is no longer pushed as a teaching. It is because this theory seems to push justice rather than the love of God. It diminishes the heart of the redemption of Jesus. The retired Pope Benedict said this same thing.

I have always heard that God could have straightway just forgiven us without the suffering of Jesus. But if God had done it that way, would it have had the force of strong proof of his love?

I believe it was St. Faustina who said that the reason Jesus chose to suffer on the Cross was that anyone who looked at His suffering could not help but be moved to sorrow. This would present the best chance at redemption to the worst of men, the most hardened, so they would be moved by seeing his great suffering for them.

So the emphasis is not the justice of God being resolved in our redemption as much as it was the great love of God for us.

And just what did Jesus save(redeem) us from? The state of permanent spiritual death, the death of the soul, which preempts the spiritual life of the soul in God. Mankind was lost in sin … death. Christ returned life to us which had formerly had been lost in Genesis. And as many people who accept redemption, they are restored to spiritual life. They have been resurrected by Jesus, come to life again, redeemed from spiritual death. Jesus chose to freely pay with his life(lamb) to accomplish this salvation of the lost. Which would show how much he truely loved us.

“Turn your face away from my sins and wipe out all my transgressions; create a pure heart in me, God, put a steadfast spirit into me.” Psalm 50

 

[Jake_Parker]

I think a great explanation of the atonement, the “Incarnational” theory of atonement.
Read the whole thing: tinyurl.com/jefwflv

The general idea behind the “new” theory of the Atonement that I will be developing actually has a long history in Christian thought. This idea of the Atonement doesn’t start with the idea of law or use courtroom imagery to describe God’s fundamental relationship with the world, but instead begins with the idea of God’s grace and love for creation and uses imagery of God’s participation in creation to bring it to fulfillment. This different approach ultimately goes back to the Apostle Paul, was advocated by some of the early Greek Fathers of the Church, and has been further developed through the centuries by Eastern Orthodox theologians (though in a way that seems problematic from the perspective of Western modes of thought).(8) Moreover, this alternative idea has also turned up here and there in Western Christianity throughout the centuries, for example, in the theology of the medieval mystic Julian of Norwich, and in various theological traditions which stress Jesus’ identification with us, especially in injustice and suffering. As far as I can tell, however, no one has systematically developed this alternative theological approach in a way that is clear and coherent from the perspective of Western philosophy. This is now what I will attempt to do.

The best way of developing what I will call the Incarnational theory, I believe, is by starting with Paul’s model of the Atonement as found in Romans chapter 6, Galatians 2:22, Galatians 3:27, 2 Cor. 5:14, and other biblical passages. In these passages, Paul hints at a theory of the Atonement based on participation or unity with Christ, but doesn’t go into much detail. Although Paul tells us something about how Atonement works in these verses–it is through unity with Christ’s death that we are united with Christ in his Resurrection (see, for example, Romans 6:5)–he does not tell us why unity with Christ’s death is necessary. It seems like an extra step in the process of salvation. Why couldn’t God, for instance, simply unite us with himself directly? Why do we first need to be united with Christ in his death? And how does this unity with Christ’s death actually come about? I am going to hypothesize, following Paul, that unity with Christ in his death is necessary for unity with Christ in his Resurrection, but I will go beyond what Paul explicitly says by explaining why this extra step about unity with Christ’s death is necessary. To this we now turn.

Let’s begin by analyzing what unity with Christ amounts to. A variety of metaphors which suggest a very intimate relationship are used in Scripture: Various passages compare our future unity with Christ to that between a vine and its branches (Jn. 15), to that between the parts of a body (I Cor. 12:12-28), to that between the Son and the Father (Jn. 17), and to that which ideally occurs in marriage (Mk. 10:8; Eph. 5:25-32). What is common in each of these analogies is that unity is conceived as involving a mutual sharing, integrating, and intertwining of two selves, along with the sharing of a common life. For example, the vine and the branches are inseparable from one another, sharing the common life of the plant together, and the life and well-being of each part of the body is intimately tied to that of all the other members, so that no part can get along without the other members. Moreover, the unity between Christ and the Father is one in which Christ is “in” the Father and the Father is “in” Christ; the metaphor of parent and child conveys the concept of a shared family identity, history, and inheritance (and the doctrine of the Trinity indeed claims that Jesus the Son is a separate person from, yet “one substance” with, the Father.) Finally, the unity that ideally occurs in marriage involves a mutual sharing of one’s life and self, a sharing in which each life and each self become “part” of the life and the self of the other through a mutual choice and a common life history.

Now the central claim of the Incarnational theory is that just as an apple tree branch, for example, cannot be successfully be grafted into a form of life that is totally alien to it, such as a horse, God’s self cannot be united with our selves in the way scripture suggests if God’s self is too alien from our selves. But, apart from the Incarnation, God’s self would be very alien to ours. After all, God is infinite, we are finite; God knows everything, our knowledge is limited; God is eternal, we are not; God is everywhere, we are confined to a body; God is not dependent, we are vulnerable and dependent; and the list goes on. Thus, in order to establish as much common ground between God’s self and ours as a basis for the deep sort of intertwining unity the biblical images point to, God must not only take on human nature, but God must share what I call our life-situation, for our life-situation as human beings is inseparable from what we are. Since our life-situation, however, involves among other things negative conditions such alienation from God and others (including ourselves), vulnerability, suffering, victimization, and mortality, this means that God the Son must himself experience alienation, vulnerability, suffering, victimization, mortality and the like in order to share our life-situation. This is what, according to the Incarnational theory, Christ did in his life and death. Jesus took on and participated in even the most negative elements of our human life-situation. Indeed, as the Eastern Orthodox theologian Kallistos Ware stresses, the Cross represents the very climax of Christ entering into our human condition, and thus the very climax of Christ’s atoning work. On the Cross Christ even experienced our alienation from God, as evidenced by his exclamation “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 16:34).