Questions for any Protestants

[kenmiller]

This assumes Catholics exclude the Bible. It also assumes (all) Protestants exclude tradition. It further assumes that scripture and Tradition inevitably come to different conclusions.
I would contend against all three assumptions.

Catholics clearly and regularly use scripture. To begin with, their entire Mass is scripture.
Lutherans, at least, rely strongly on Tradition. To begin with, our confessional book begins with the three ancient Creeds.
Lutherans, at least, and Catholics have far more convergence than many people think.

Jon

Catholics have incorporated many things into their Mass from Lutherans and same as Lutherans service have done from Catholics Mass : Music as an example and elimination of kneeling

 

[rinnie]

Based upon tradition Catholics are correct , based upon the bible Protestants are correct -

As my kids would say, nut ah.

Main example the bible states You are Peter and to YOU I give the keys to the Kingdom. That is denied by all protestants and many Catholics too!

 

[rinnie]

Respectfully , we have our own disagreements within the RCC on those issues - no need to point fingers

Yes but you got to give her that one. The bible says a marriage between the same sex is an abomination.

The Bible says that after Peter claimed ALL should be Baptized in the name of the Trinity, entire households were baptized. (what entire households did not have kids in those days?

I could go on but I believe my point is taken.

 

[rinnie]

robwar;12584153:

First of all Catholic priests don’t claim this power. The ability to forgive sins “persona Christi” is part of the priestly ordination and anointing of that office. A majority of Protestantism has s different view than the Catholic/Orthodox and including our Anglican and Lutheran friends that have already commented in that Protestantism believes in the priesthood of all believers, therefore the sacramental view of the priesthood is not found. Likewise, a majority of Protestantism emphasizes the believer one on one relationship with God. Considering these two views priesthood of all believers and non-sacrimental pastors and ministers, they do not believe and support the sacrament of confession. If one sins, they simple would say go to God and ask for forgiveness. The verses that mention Jesus breathing on the disciples to forgive sins etc are ignored.

QUOTE]

I believe you summarized well the position of the protestant denominations I am familiar with, Robwar.

Note: The statement that I highlighted in bold is not necessarily ignored in the denominations I am familiar with. However, they are usually explained away as being just for the disciples during their earthly ministry (temporal) and not passed on to their successors or to anyone else after they died. I’m not saying that I agree with that interpretation – just saying that the verse isn’t ignored, it’s explained away, just like the verses on some of the charisms just being for the disciples and not carried on to today.

In my local church, asking for forgiveness of sins is hardly mentioned in the church service at all and there is no part of the service that covers it except for the altar call near the end of the service. Apparently it is assumed that everyone handles the confession of sins between themselves and God.

I find having a sacrament of Reconciliation to be an effective way to remain accountable for our sins and to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are forgiven, and I wish my church did more in that area.

Okay lets see it your way, and lets say that the laying of the hands was not to continue on by the Apostles, then why did they do it.

And Jesus commanded his Apostles to carry his word to the ends of the earth. (So are you saying God did not know they would die). Remember no internet then, nor cars etc. So if the Apostles were it, how do you explain away his word to be given to the ends of the earth?

Sorry, just asking!

 

[rinnie]

Which non-Protestants are correct?
The ones that say the Filioque?
The ones that say the Filioque is an innovation?
The ones that say the pope has universal jurisdiction?
The ones who say the pope has a primacy of honor?

Regardless of who is divided from whom, our divisions are sad, and hurt to ministry of His Church.

Jon

But to myself, the biggest problem is we can see who divided the Church and why. And unfortunately it was never truly over the word of God, it was because of those who disappointed God as in the RCC I will give you that.

Or those who could not be given the permission to continue in their sin, and left the Church because they put their will above Gods.

But as my Dad says God will sort it all out.

 

[Novocastrian]

Yes but you got to give her that one. The bible says a marriage between the same sex is an abomination.

Let’s be fair to all sides in the homosexuality debates:

Catholics and traditional Protestants aren’t just a bunch of homophobic bigots. Orthodox censures of homosexual behaviour are balanced by the command to love one’s neighbour and seek what’s best for them, to protect their human rights and personal safety, etc.

Liberals aren’t just ignoring a Biblical “abomination”. The “abomination” category includes shellfish as as well as two men engaged in sexual acts.

 

[rinnie]

Let’s be fair to all sides in the homosexuality debates:

Catholics and traditional Protestants aren’t just a bunch of homophobic bigots. Orthodox censures of homosexual behaviour are balanced by the command to love one’s neighbour and seek what’s best for them, to protect their human rights and personal safety, etc.

Liberals aren’t just ignoring a Biblical “abomination”. The “abomination” category includes shellfish as as well as two men engaged in sexual acts.

Where does the word of God tell us to seek what is best for us? God gave us free will to obey or disobey his commands.

God destroyed towns that were behaving in this manner, do you not agree, where did he say do what best for you?

 

[Novocastrian]

Where does the word of God tell us to seek what is best for us? God gave us free will to obey or disobey his commands.

God destroyed towns that were behaving in this manner, do you not agree, where did he say do what best for you?

I’m just saying that proof-text appeals to a Biblical “abomination” without any kind of explanation as to why Catholicism takes one line on homosexuality and another on shellfish is to sell your own position short.

I’d also reiterate that’s I’m referring to the command to love one’s neighbour and seek what’s best for them. The orthodox Catholic presumably thinks that this involves protecting homosexuals from those who would harm them, while calmly and peacefully telling them that the Church teaches against homosexual marriage, etc.

I’m really not arguing against you, just saying that you can present your own position in a far more coherent and defensible way.

 

[rinnie]

I’m just saying that proof-text appeals to a Biblical “abomination” without any kind of explanation as to why Catholicism takes one line on homosexuality and another on shellfish is to sell your own position short.

I’d also reiterate that’s I’m referring to the command to love one’s neighbour and seek what’s best for them. The orthodox Catholic presumably thinks that this involves protecting homosexuals from those who would harm them, while calmly and peacefully telling them that the Church teaches against homosexual marriage, etc.

I’m really not arguing against you, just saying that you can present your own position in a far more coherent and defensible way.

I understand, but the point I was trying to make was when it was said bible only. If bible only is a Protestants defense what about saying same sex marriage is okay, and the bible states quite clear its a no no. That was my point.

Personally my opinion of same sex partners is this, love them, I love tons of gays and they love me, I respect them, in the same way they respect me, and also respect my faith, and why I cannot accept their choice.

They can accept that it is not MY choice to disagree with their choice, it is God who said this is wrong not I.

But God also taught me to love the sinner hate the sin, I have to do this, and they love me for this, as I love them. The same as they themselves cannot accept sin I have.

Its not about judging or not judging, its going the way of God and not Man.

God may forgive their sin, better then mine. Its not about that. Its we all have sin, and must help one another and by not accepting the sin, but accepting the person that counts. And it can be done. I have done it, and continue to do so, as they with me.

 

[robwar]

Yes they do, they have the power to forgive sins in the name of Jesus as I stated. And they also have the power to retain them in his name also.

First of all op stated they claim the power. Yes, priest have power to forgive or retain sins but it isn’t because they “claim” it, it is because Christ gave it to them as part of the sacrament of Holy Orders. It isn’t claimed but given. That is a big difference in understanding and if that is how Op understand this, then is should be corrected.

 

[robwar]

robwar;12584153:

First of all Catholic priests don’t claim this power. The ability to forgive sins “persona Christi” is part of the priestly ordination and anointing of that office. A majority of Protestantism has s different view than the Catholic/Orthodox and including our Anglican and Lutheran friends that have already commented in that Protestantism believes in the priesthood of all believers, therefore the sacramental view of the priesthood is not found. Likewise, a majority of Protestantism emphasizes the believer one on one relationship with God. Considering these two views priesthood of all believers and non-sacrimental pastors and ministers, they do not believe and support the sacrament of confession. If one sins, they simple would say go to God and ask for forgiveness. The verses that mention Jesus breathing on the disciples to forgive sins etc are ignored.

QUOTE]

I believe you summarized well the position of the protestant denominations I am familiar with, Robwar.

Note: The statement that I highlighted in bold is not necessarily ignored in the denominations I am familiar with. However, they are usually explained away as being just for the disciples during their earthly ministry (temporal) and not passed on to their successors or to anyone else after they died. I’m not saying that I agree with that interpretation – just saying that the verse isn’t ignored, it’s explained away, just like the verses on some of the charisms just being for the disciples and not carried on to today.

In my local church, asking for forgiveness of sins is hardly mentioned in the church service at all and there is no part of the service that covers it except for the altar call near the end of the service. Apparently it is assumed that everyone handles the confession of sins between themselves and God.

I find having a sacrament of Reconciliation to be an effective way to remain accountable for our sins and to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are forgiven, and I wish my church did more in that area.

Thank-you, I was trying to sum up what a majority of Protestants would view on this issue. I appreciate the correction on the highlighted verse. It’s been a while for me being Catholic 25 years now and was trying to come up with the standard explanation of the John passage. Thanks for your thoughtful post. I always appreciate your questions and insight.

 

[robwar]

Let’s be fair to all sides in the homosexuality debates:

Catholics and traditional Protestants aren’t just a bunch of homophobic bigots. Orthodox censures of homosexual behaviour are balanced by the command to love one’s neighbour and seek what’s best for them, to protect their human rights and personal safety, etc.

Liberals aren’t just ignoring a Biblical “abomination”. The “abomination” category includes shellfish as as well as two men engaged in sexual acts.

This thread is a question about Protestant views on reconciliation. If you wish to discuss how the Catholic Church views homosexuality, then please start your own thread and this subject can be discussed there.

 

[kenmiller]

Yes but you got to give her that one. The bible says a marriage between the same sex is an abomination.

The Bible says that after Peter claimed ALL should be Baptized in the name of the Trinity, entire households were baptized. (what entire households did not have kids in those days?

I could go on but I believe my point is taken.

We need to recognize that Catholics and Lutherans have so much more in common than disagree - and celebrate each other

 

[benhur]

Some are orbiting more closely than others.

http://www.grandislandschools.org/webpages/yfantrazzo/imageGallery/ig295_planets_solarsystem_021.jpg

As for the Anglican communion, the Kuyper Belt is not shown on that diagram.

Can you get a macro universe shot, you know billions of stars ? Then our differing distances from our sun seem puny as compared to your illustration’s perspective

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can you get a macro universe shot, you know billions of stars ? Then our differing distances from our sun seem puny as compared to your illustration’s perspective

If that diagram were to scale, the distances between the bodies would appear much, much bigger.

 

[benhur]

The verses that mention Jesus breathing on the disciples to forgive sins etc are ignored (by P’s).

Are you sure ? Do we also ignore honoring Mary, and “eating” Christ, and keys, and rock ? Would it not be unfair for us to say you ignore the scripture that says call no man “father” except He that is in heaven, or to avoid vain repetition ?

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Based upon tradition Catholics are correct , based upon the bible Protestants are correct -

I am not sure you mean that in a general way, or regarding confession of sins to priests. Well, regarding God giving man ability to forgive sins in his name…

John 20:21-23 NIV
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

That’s from The NIV version, because I know that version is quite popular these days and that is scripture supporting a Catholic belief that God gave certain men the ability to forgive sins. Go ahead and read the passages before and after it, so that you know I am quoting this verse in proper context. I assume you have a Bible. Most (though not all) non Catholics say that we got that passage wrong but I guarantee our interpretation is the one the early Christians believed and whether those that hold our view like it or not it is historically recorded that confession has been in Christianity since the beginning. Back then the way it was done was different (Public confessions ) and other things.

Remember, God gave us The Bible through The Catholic Church. Give us more credit that Maybe just maybe The Catholic Church, that has been around for almost 2000 years might know a bit more about it than all these new churches that have been popping up over the last hundred years and think they know better than The Mother Church. Just consider it.

 

[kenmiller]

We are bashing over details and losing big picture of what Catholics and Protestants agree - in the end Christ will likely see both as wonderful people .

I am not sure you mean that in a general way, or regarding confession of sins to priests. Well, regarding God giving man ability to forgive sins in his name…

John 20:21-23 NIV
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

That’s from The NIV version, because I know that version is quite popular these days and that is scripture supporting a Catholic belief that God gave certain men the ability to forgive sins. Go ahead and read the passages before and after it, so that you know I am quoting this verse in proper context. I assume you have a Bible. Most (though not all) non Catholics say that we got that passage wrong but I guarantee our interpretation is the one the early Christians believed and whether those that hold our view like it or not it is historically recorded that confession has been in Christianity since the beginning. Back then the way it was done was different (Public confessions ) and other things.

Remember, God gave us The Bible through The Catholic Church. Give us more credit that Maybe just maybe The Catholic Church, that has been around for almost 2000 years might know a bit more about it than all these new churches that have been popping up over the last hundred years and think they know better than The Mother Church. Just consider it.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Are you sure ? Do we also ignore honoring Mary, and “eating” Christ, and keys, and rock ? Would it not be unfair for us to say you ignore the scripture that says call no man “father” except He that is in heaven, or to avoid vain repetition ?

2 Thessalonians 2:15-King James Version (KJV)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now, which Church has been around the longest that it might know what there traditions taught by word might be? And why don’t protestants know or follow these traditions taught by word but not epistle? And why do so many ignore this passage and not adhere to oral Tradition like “Apostolic succession” even though scripture says that Tradition taught by word and not written down does exist?

 

[benhur]

To begin with, their entire Mass is scripture.

Sorry to be nitpicky Jon for otherwise totally agree with your post . Just disagree on this one statement .The Mass is 99% scripture. Unfortunately, the 1% some claim to be the main reason for the Mass (as a sacrifice,ala OT sense), so it is a pretty big discrepancy.