Questions for any Protestants

[robwar]

Are you sure ? Do we also ignore honoring Mary, and “eating” Christ, and keys, and rock ? Would it not be unfair for us to say you ignore the scripture that says call no man “father” except He that is in heaven, or to avoid vain repetition ?

Am I sure about what? It is what scripture says. This thread is about confession and reconciliation. Your other issues have been discussed here and on Catholic answer articles and on the radio. Using your logic, you yourself shouldn’t be calling your own father father because it is unBiblical.

 

[robwar]

Sorry to be nitpicky Jon for otherwise totally agree with your post . Just disagree on this one statement .The Mass is 99% scripture. Unfortunately, the 1% some claim to be the main reason for the Mass (as a sacrifice,ala OT sense), so it is a pretty big discrepancy.

let me ask you this. Since you find anything Catholic unBiblical, why are you here? Are you here to discuss or attack?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sorry to be nitpicky Jon for otherwise totally agree with your post . Just disagree on this one statement .The Mass is 99% scripture. Unfortunately, the 1% some claim to be the main reason for the Mass (as a sacrifice,ala OT sense), so it is a pretty big discrepancy.

Umm… the Sacrifice of Christ… ala the NT Sense… ala the Catholic Church isn’t the same as the OT sacrifice. OT sacrifice was unable to save, needed annual scapegoats, fulfilled the law but not the spirit. The New Covenant sacrifice is the Person of Jesus Christ, eternal high priest. I think that 1% you’ve described needs to be restudied.

 

[rinnie]

We need to recognize that Catholics and Lutherans have so much more in common than disagree - and celebrate each other

Not only Lutherans my Love, all of Gods children have much in common. The most important of all our love for one another and love for God.

 

[benhur]

2 Thessalonians 2:15-King James Version (KJV)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now, which Church has been around the longest that it might know what there traditions taught by word might be? And why don’t protestants know or follow these traditions taught by word but not epistle? And why do so many ignore this passage and not adhere to oral Tradition like “Apostolic succession” even though scripture says that Tradition taught by word and not written down does exist?

St. Paul never heard a “confession”. It is an assumption on just what Paul meant by "traditions. for it is rarely used in scripture in a positive sense. We all do follow some traditions. Paul’s buddy Barnabus had a tradition, for he wrote , “It is well that he who has learned the judgements of the Lord, as many as have been written, keep them”

 

[robwar]

St. Paul never heard a “confession”. It is an assumption on just what Paul meant by "traditions. for it is rarely used in scripture in a positive sense. We all do follow some traditions. Paul’s buddy Barnabus had a tradition, for he wrote , “It is well that he who has learned the judgements of the Lord, as many as have been written, keep them”

And you were there to know this?

 

[kenmiller]

Not only Lutherans my Love, all of Gods children have much in common. The most important of all our love for one another and love for God.

agree my love, and yet so much time by Lutherans , Catholics claiming their superior and better. With so much energy wasted and not recognizing what we do agree upon

 

[rinnie]

First of all op stated they claim the power. Yes, priest have power to forgive or retain sins but it isn’t because they “claim” it, it is because Christ gave it to them as part of the sacrament of Holy Orders. It isn’t claimed but given. That is a big difference in understanding and if that is how Op understand this, then is should be corrected.

I never intended to mean that they have the power because they claimed it.

The point I was trying to make is, they indeed do claim that they indeed have it, if asked how can you support that claim, the answer would be the laying of hands is how the power was given.

I have never heard a Preacher claim to be able to forgive sin in the name of God. Or to put it a different way Methodists have not made this claim, Baptists, etc.

From what I have read so far on this thread, only Lutherans, and Anglicans have also claimed they have this power.

 

[benhur]

Umm… the Sacrifice of Christ… ala the NT Sense… ala the Catholic Church isn’t the same as the OT sacrifice. OT sacrifice was unable to save, needed annual scapegoats, fulfilled the law but not the spirit. The New Covenant sacrifice is the Person of Jesus Christ, eternal high priest. I think that 1% you’ve described needs to be restudied.

Well,you miss some other "sense’. Like something we offer up to God thru an intermediary (priest). Does a “Mass” sacrifice save you where an OT sacrifice didn’t ?

 

[SyroMalankara]

We need to recognize that Catholics and Lutherans have so much more in common than disagree - and celebrate each other

Wow, that’s some major fluff! Celebrate each other - What does that even mean?

benhur:

St. Paul never heard a “confession”. It is an assumption on just what Paul meant by "traditions. for it is rarely used in scripture in a positive sense. We all do follow some traditions. Paul’s buddy Barnabus had a tradition, for he wrote , “It is well that he who has learned the judgements of the Lord, as many as have been written, keep them”

An Excommunication by the Apostle St. Paul
“The man who has done such a thing should be expelled from your fellowship. And even though I am far away from you in body, still I am there with you in spirit; and as though I were there with you, I have in the name of our Lord Jesus already passed judgment on the man who has done this terrible thing. As you meet together, and I meet with you in my spirit, by the power of our Lord Jesus present with us, you are to hand this man over to Satan for his body to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.” (I Cor. 5:3-5)

A confession and absolution
“When you forgive someone for what he has done, I forgive him too. For when I forgive — if, indeed, I need to forgive anything — I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are.” (II Cor. 2:10-11)

 

[rinnie]

St. Paul never heard a “confession”. It is an assumption on just what Paul meant by "traditions. for it is rarely used in scripture in a positive sense. We all do follow some traditions. Paul’s buddy Barnabus had a tradition, for he wrote , “It is well that he who has learned the judgements of the Lord, as many as have been written, keep them”

They you are saying St Paul denied the power given to him by Christ, and refused to forgive sin in the name of God?

Then why did he state in 2 Cor 5:18 that Christ gave US the ministry of Reconciliation.

You are saying he states he had a mission from God to forgive sin, but refused to do so? How do you figure?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well,you miss some other "sense’. Like something we offer up to God thru an intermediary (priest).

You mean exactly like how God the Son - eternal high priest - is an intermediary for the human race to God the Father?

Does a “Mass” sacrifice save you where an OT sacrifice didn’t ?

Old Covenant Sacrifice of the Holy Prophet Moses, for the chosen people - the Israelites:
“This … is the blood of the covenant that Yahweh has made with you.” (Exodus 24:8)

New Covenant Sacrifice of our Lord God and Savior, for the chosen people - the Church:
“For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28)

The Mass/Divine Liturgy saves because of who offers the sacrifice - Christ; and who the Sacrifice is - Christ. Unlike the OT sacrifice, offered by a mortal priest with mortal flesh.

 

[rinnie]

Well,you miss some other "sense’. Like something we offer up to God thru an intermediary (priest). Does a “Mass” sacrifice save you where an OT sacrifice didn’t ?

Yes, Jesus is who is sacrificed for our sins in the N.T. In the O.T. an animal was sacrificed but it was not until Jesus died that heaven was opened for all and all sins were paid for in full.

Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice. In the O.T. they were held with Abraham until Christ died and opened heaven for them to enter.

 

[robwar]

I never intended to mean that they have the power because they claimed it.

The point I was trying to make is, they indeed do claim that they indeed have it, if asked how can you support that claim, the answer would be the laying of hands is how the power was given.

I have never heard a Preacher claim to be able to forgive sin in the name of God. Or to put it a different way Methodists have not made this claim, Baptists, etc.

From what I have read so far on this thread, only Lutherans, and Anglicans have also claimed they have this power.

90% of Protestant ministers don’t claim the power of confession. we both understand the work claim differently. Coming from a name it claim it WoF type experiences, when I see the word claim, it would mean to me that the person is taking the power as their right. You are viewing it as the claim it because it has already been given to them by their sacrament of Holy orders. We both agree Catholic priests have this as a gift. I take issue with Op use of claim because it can be understood in the way I am stating which is they take the ability to forgive as their right. It isn’t their right, it is a gift from God. This is true of the Eucharist, we don’t “take it”, we receive it from the priest. There is a difference here.

 

[benhur]

From what I have read so far on this thread, only Lutherans, and Anglicans have also claimed they have this power.

I think so. I would say however most preachers do state that the essence of preaching is the power, not only to receive forgiveness of sins, but even a changed nature, to do the will of God. So as Catholics even state, Jesus, not the priest though “standing in” for Him , forgives the sins. The priest , like the preacher , does not individually do it. One does it sacramentally, the other from the pulpit or even sacramentally in baptism/water. As you posted a bit earlier, “all of Gods children have much in common”.

 

[kenmiller]

How come when I respond someone delete the posts - I would think debate would be welcomed. , very frustrating and alarming

QUOTE=SyroMalankara;12585916]Wow, that’s some major fluff! Celebrate each other - What does that even mean?

An Excommunication by the Apostle St. Paul
“The man who has done such a thing should be expelled from your fellowship. And even though I am far away from you in body, still I am there with you in spirit; and as though I were there with you, I have in the name of our Lord Jesus already passed judgment on the man who has done this terrible thing. As you meet together, and I meet with you in my spirit, by the power of our Lord Jesus present with us, you are to hand this man over to Satan for his body to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.” (I Cor. 5:3-5)

A confession and absolution
“When you forgive someone for what he has done, I forgive him too. For when I forgive — if, indeed, I need to forgive anything — I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are.” (II Cor. 2:10-11)

 

[benhur]

Yes, Jesus is who is sacrificed for our sins in the N.T. In the O.T. an animal was sacrificed but it was not until Jesus died that heaven was opened for all and all sins were paid for in full.

Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice. In the O.T. they were held with Abraham until Christ died and opened heaven for them to enter.

What I meant was if a person participates in a mass does that “save” him ? It was stated an OT sacrifice did not save.

I understand what u mean by “full” and differences on afterlife from OT and NT for saints. OT saints were that, saints , regenerated, born of the Spirit, declared righteous by the same person we are, Jesus. They looked forward to Him in faith as we look backward at Him (Calvary, and forward also to second coming) in faith.

 

[benhur]

Wow, that’s some major fluff! Celebrate each other - What does that even mean?

An Excommunication by the Apostle St. Paul
“The man who has done such a thing should be expelled from your fellowship. And even though I am far away from you in body, still I am there with you in spirit; and as though I were there with you, I have in the name of our Lord Jesus already passed judgment on the man who has done this terrible thing. As you meet together, and I meet with you in my spirit, by the power of our Lord Jesus present with us, you are to hand this man over to Satan for his body to be destroyed, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord.” (I Cor. 5:3-5)

A confession and absolution
“When you forgive someone for what he has done, I forgive him too. For when I forgive — if, indeed, I need to forgive anything — I do it in Christ’s presence because of you, in order to keep Satan from getting the upper hand over us; for we know what his plans are.” (II Cor. 2:10-11)

Thank you. Judgement is not “confession”. Forgiving someone who has trespassed against you is not “confessional”. So your two examples do not fit anymore than “confess your faults one to another”.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thank you. Judgement is not “confession”. Forgiving someone who has trespassed against you is not “confessional”. So your two examples do not fit anymore than “confess your faults one to another”.

So confession is not confession?

 

[benhur]

Am I sure about what? It is what scripture says. This thread is about confession and reconciliation. Your other issues have been discussed here and on Catholic answer articles and on the radio. Using your logic, you yourself shouldn’t be calling your own father father because it is unBiblical.

You said we ignore where Jesus breathed on them and go and forgive sins. Hence I asked if you are sure about that , for I don’t think anyone ignores that scripture, or any others where we differ. It seems if we differ on scripture you say we ignore that scripture. I used the example of the father scripture to show the unfairness of such thinking, and I do not think you ignore that scripture. Using your logic I would say that though.