Questions for any Protestants

[benhur]

… historically recorded evidence shows that Christians believed otherwise (than P’s) in documents as early as the first century. For example It is believed that The Didache might have been written before The book of revelations and was almost included in scripture but it was decided not to because it was not written by a apostle)

My friend we differ on some scripture plainly, or not so plainly, set before us, and so with the Didache. I love scripture and the Didache, as I am sure you do also.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Case Law also said negroes were what ? Case Law also said Jews could not work on Sundays. etc. etc. etc.

We all love Case Law, even Tradition, but only when it is in line with Truth and Spirit.

And we know that our Tradition is in line with truth and spirit from Christ’s promise…

NIV Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hades will not overcome it.

Now, if we believe That Christ founded our Church, The Catholic Church, if she teaches error that could possibly cause people to be cut off from God and sent to hell, that would mean that The gates of hades prevailed over this Church. Not possible, by our Lords promise. I don’t expect you to believe this the same way Catholics do and im not going to try to change your mind, just though I would put it out there what we believe incase you did not know. That passage is one of the reasons why I put faith in what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

My friend we differ on some scripture plainly, or not so plainly, set before us, and so with the Didache. I love scripture and the Didache, as I am sure you do also.

Seems like you wish to agree to disagree now? Thanks for reading my explanations. I love this Church because I believe it is a gift from Christ himself to aid us on our journey to heaven. He provides everything we need. That is why I try to defend what she teaches.

 

[eightydeuce82]

Paul does not say confess sin to each other but “faults” and not be be forgiven, but so that we can pray for one another and be healed ,with victory over our fleshly inclinations.
“Confess your **faults **one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16”

That’s you’re interpretation of Paul can you tell us that with infallible interpretation. Since you most likely believe that all men are fallible how can you bind anyone authoritatively to any particular interpretation of anything since you must admit you might be wrong.

As for the Talmud you must be joking. Apparently my Jewish background must have been wrong. When did you become a Jew and are able to speak authoritatively on the Talmud and the Torah? Why don’t you tell us why Moses asked the 70 to be assembled and why the Talmud was established. Then tell us when it was finally written down and how it was transmitted before that time? Since you obviously think your right about everything and think you can out whit everyone on this thread why don’t you explain all of this mr fallible non authoritative teacher of private interpretation. I bet you hate to read the apostolic fathers. You know the guys who took their bible study directly from the apostles and see how much they relied on apostolic tradition, valid ordination, the real presence etc etc.

 

[joe371]

I never would have asked my Protestant pastor that because I believed my sins were already forgiven by God. It never would have occurred to me to ask a human to forgive my sins when God had already done so by dying on the cross.

OK, your sins are already forgiven, so why would Jesus tell sinful/fallible humans, the following: “If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven?”

Therein lies the rub: no one within the Catholic Church teaches that a mere sinful human can forgive sin, other than the God-Man - Jesus the Christ, and yet Jesus still entrusted, to those men willing to conform to His new-covenant priesthood, the task of hearing a person confess his/her sins: “If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” i.e. Jesus forgives sins via this sacramental system - not sinful men. Does that seem like a natural conclusion to you?

 

[joe371]

Based upon tradition Catholics are correct , based upon the bible Protestants are correct -

Catholic Church: Sacred Tradition + Sacred Scripture, as per sacred scripture. Scripture alone is not supported by scripture alone.

 

[rfournier103]

Case Law also said negroes were what ? Case Law also said Jews could not work on Sundays. etc. etc. etc.

We all love Case Law, even Tradition, but only when it is in line with Truth and Spirit.

Shouldn’t you be saying; “we all love Case Law, even Tradition, but only when it is in line with Scripture”?

How is Catholic Sacred Tradition NOT in line with Scripture? (sounds like a new thread to me…) And tell me how the Canon of the Holy Bible isn’t a Tradition?

 

[benhur]

Shouldn’t you be saying; “we all love Case Law, even Tradition, but only when it is in line with Scripture”?

If you like but no, for Truth and Spirit is more succint. Most tradition has its ties to scripture , or an interpretation thereof. We just need proper interpretation of scripture, as Jesus points out during His time on earth, to rest tradition on.

How is Catholic Sacred Tradition NOT in line with Scripture? (sounds like a new thread to me…)

Again, most in line with scripture, but some not such a straight line, and indeed another thread

And tell me how the Canon of the Holy Bible isn’t a Tradition?

Never said it wasn’t.

 

[benhur]

I bet you hate to read the apostolic fathers. You know the guys who took their bible study directly from the apostles and see how much they relied on apostolic tradition, valid ordination, the real presence etc etc.

Maybe you should read the posts. I said I love the Didache also and early Father writings. We really are quite Catholic in many ways. Yes, they relied on all those things, including church, and scriptures.

 

[joe371]

benhur;12599488]If you like but no, for Truth and Spirit is more succint. Most tradition has its ties to scripture , or an interpretation thereof.

True. However, to some degree, each church is different in terms of said traditions.

We just need proper interpretation of scripture, as Jesus points out during His time on earth, to rest tradition on.

How does one go about locating the proper interpretation in view of so many different churches in the world today, teaching different things in certain cases?

 

[benhur]

Seems like you wish to agree to disagree now? Thanks for reading my explanations. I love this Church because I believe it is a gift from Christ himself to aid us on our journey to heaven. He provides everything we need. That is why I try to defend what she teaches.

Amen.

 

[benhur]

Now, if we believe That Christ founded our Church, The Catholic Church, if she teaches error that could possibly cause people to be cut off from God and sent to hell, that would mean that The gates of hades prevailed over this Church.

Then everyone in church shall prevail, kind of like eternal security ? Actually most of our differences are not the kind that determine eternal life or not, but we sure make a big deal about them. Having said that, all that "noise’’ sometimes hides the only real issue and some folk do perish for the lack of proper “knowledge”.

Not possible, by our Lords promise. I don’t expect you to believe this the same way Catholics do and im not going to try to change your mind, just though I would put it out there what we believe incase you did not know. That passage is one of the reasons why I put faith in what the Catholic Church teaches.

Understand . Thank you .That scripture is one that also motivates discussion and even reform. It is by His grace that anything is right in the church , and also if not, that we can still be right with Him.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Then everyone in church shall prevail, kind of like eternal security ? Actually most of our differences are not the kind that determine eternal life or not, but we sure make a big deal about them. Having said that, all that "noise’’ sometimes hides the only real issue and some folk do perish for the lack of proper “knowledge”.Understand . Thank you .That scripture is one that also motivates discussion and even reform. It is by His grace that anything is right in the church , and also if not, that we can still be right with Him.

If you mean Eternal security as in once saved always saved, then no. Catholics believe it is possible to fall from Grace and reject God even after once being in Gods grace. No, not everyone in The Church shall prevail (I take you to mean “Be saved” by prevail?) All baptized persons are in The Church but not all are true followers of Christ. Remember the parable about the wheat and tares? This is a Church of Wheat and tares. God will judge at the end who is what. But The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1st Timothy 3:15) now, we believe our Church is the Church Christ founded. So, if she departs from the truth, that means the gates of hades prevailed. Not possible, per what our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 16:18. Amen that it is by His Grace that anything is right in The Church. Merry Christmas

 

[wildrumpus]

I hope you are asking these questions because you seek knowledge and not to cause further division among the many here who clearly believe differently from each other, even ones in the same church.

Anyway,

I take us to Mark 2:7, where after Jesus forgave the sins of a paralytic, some questioned His authority. Jesus immediately understood in His spirit that they were thinking like this and said to them, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, Get up, pick up your mat, and walk?”

What do you think Christ meant?

 

[Randy_Carson]

He can’t be driving two cars at the same time . Each car has it’s own key and its own driver. That Christ is shown to have the keys in Rev. shows that there are at least two sets, so why not 3 or twelve ? ?

I don’t know what your experience has been, but every car I’ve owned over the past 40 years or so has had two sets of keys.

But that aside, we both know that if you had a verse showing anyone other than Peter being given the keys of the kingdom, this would be a very different discussion.

You don’t.

And you do know we’re not talking about actual, physical keys, right? I mean, Jesus wasn’t over at Home Depot the day before His ascension having spares cut…

 

[joe371]

He can’t be driving two cars at the same time . Each car has it’s own key and its own driver. That Christ is shown to have the keys in Rev. shows that there are at least two sets, so why not 3 or twelve ? ?

As per my protestant sister we have all been given a set of keys. Seriously though: of course Jesus holds the figurative keys, because He is God. However, that does not deny the obvious fact that Jesus did in fact give those figurative keys to His chosen prime minister/earthly leader in His stead i.e. keys represent authority, as everyone knows, and Jesus as the ultimate authority, gave His authority to just one person. After all, Jesus is not literally here on earth any more to make definitive declarations; He does that via the Petrine office/Ecumenical Council in an ineffable/mystical manner, as per the catholic faith.

 

[joe371]

I don’t know what your experience has been, but every car I’ve owned over the past 40 years or so has had two sets of keys.

But that aside, we both know that if you had a verse showing anyone other than Peter being given the keys of the kingdom, this would be a very different discussion.

:yup:

 

[benhur]

I don’t know what your experience has been, but every** car **I’ve owned over the past 40 years or so has had two sets of keys.

Then you have not had enough kids .

But that aside, we both know that if you had a verse showing anyone other than Peter being given the keys of the kingdom, this would be a very different discussion.
You don’t.

Perhaps, but you do hear Christ telling the twelve to get in their cars and " you will start your engines and go forth".

And you do know we’re not talking about actual, physical keys, right? I mean, Jesus wasn’t over at Home Depot the day before His ascension having spares cut.

Succession almost sounds like there is a physical key.

 

[benhur]

So, if she departs from the truth, that means the gates of hades prevailed.

Seems a bit purposely simplistic. Wisdom, even history, teaches that a departure from truth for some does not mean for all. Someone always picks up the banner to march on . A remnant always remains . Reformation/revival/restoration come from time to time. Hades has not prevailed. There is a difference between Hades winning some battles and actually winning the war, which he does not. That the reformatiom may be justified in no way says His Promises were unkept, which is what you allude.

 

[benhur]

If you mean Eternal security as in once saved always saved, then no.

Good, now apply that (OSAS) to a “church” or of a faction developing thereof.

Catholics believe it is possible to fall from Grace

yes but again not for her view /definition of “church”. Revelations suggests an entire church, her bishop and all can go astray,while others “return” or remain faithful.