Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

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Candide West

*So are you suggesting that theism is an infantile psychological condition while atheism is a juvenile psychological condition?

This seems reasonable given using the above logic and the fact that most theists acquire their belief while young children. **

To the extent that children acquire religion in childhood they usually acquire it from adult parents who have passed it on to them, rather than as an invention of their own. Most children welcome their experience of religion, as they flocked to be near Jesus himself.*
Sorry, not clear on the response on this one, is that a yes? Don’t mean to be awkward, just trying to be clear.
The teenage atheist acquires his atheism, I would say in most cases, either from atheist parents, or as a self-developed philosophy that has not been thought through because the person is still in a juvenile stage of mental and emotional development.*
I suppose you could argue the case either way on this one. Either that losing the religion is an immature rebellion as you have done. Or alternatively that it occurs at the emergence of the processes of independent (adult) thought as opposed to the childish acceptance of what has been taught by the parents.
*Atheism is the truncation of religion. Atheists who find religion later in life generally admit that their former state was one of youthful rebellion and willful ignorance of the true experience of God.
Not sure how the numbers stack up on this one but from personal experience I know a number of people who were raised religious but later realised that their beliefs were just childish wish fulfilment and grew out of them.*
That is what I understand from most of the former atheists at CA. I would say it is also true of my own experience as a former atheist.
Interesting. Thanks*
 
candide west
**
Not sure how the numbers stack up on this one but from personal experience I know a number of people who were raised religious but later realised that their beliefs were just childish wish fulfilment and grew out of them.***

That is a frequent observation. After reading lots of Sigmund Freud and Bertrand Russell, I had it about my own repudiation of religion and adoption of atheism. Later I realized the argument is a two-edged sword. The blossoming atheist can be engaging in some juvenile wish-fulfillment of his own! 😉
 
Code:
                            I don't think the majority counts for little, hence why I said it  could adduce considerable inductive strength. If I didn't have good  reason to be atheist, it could very well be enough to sway me to theism.  On the same hand, your reasoning could justify solipsism :P If everyone  is a solipsist, should I be to?
 
People are using different definitions here. In one definition people use “disbelief” (or something similar). In another people are using a definition that contains “without belief”. I checked through a few dictionaries and I can find variations of these definitions in different dictionaries. The small differences in these definitions makes for a significant amount of disagreement.

So far this is the only word with the greek prefix “a-” around which there is so much disagreement that I can identify. For some other words the differences between withing and against are distinguished through the uses of the prefix “a-” vs “anti-” such as “apathy” (without feeling, doesn’t care) vs “antipathy” (having averse feelings against).
True. Perhaps nontheism would be better. ?
 
True. Perhaps nontheism would be better. ?
It might. I think that word may be less associated with stereotypes and may be less impacted by the confusion that comes from the difference in definitions and interpretations of the words “agnostic” and “atheist”. But it is a bit of an umbrella term and includes a wider spectrum of people than the other terms. Wikipedia list deist and pantheists under non-theists.
 
I believe the same thing, and I am a Catholic. This has nothing to do with atheism. The scientific evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming.

I believe the same thing, and I am a Catholic. This has nothing to do with atheism. The scientific evidence for evolution according to Neo-Darwinian synthesis is overwhelming.
One more repetition of this mantra, and blood would have come shooting from my ears.
I also believe the first living cell was formed spontaneously, and I am a Catholic and a scientist (a biochemist). This has nothing to do with atheism. By now the scientific evidence has made an origin by natural causes highly probable, see my article for the leading evolution website Talkorigins.org:

talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html

However, the first living cell was simple, not complex, see my article.
Well, you had to do it. I swabbed up the blood (ruined a perfectly serviceable carpet) and took some blood pressure pills and a few shots of vodka, so I’m okay now.

If Talkorigins.org: is “the leading evolutionary website,” then my beard clippings left in the bathroom sink, when properly interpreted, explain everything there is to know about how and why the universe came into being.

i waded through a third of the gobbledegook and concluded that since it was based upon a combination of false and obscure premises, no probability calculations, reiterations of pop-science trash larded over with enough arcane jargon to give it an aura of credibility, it was going into the same WOM (Write-Only Memory) as other papers on the same subject. So I gave up at this particular point: Quoting from your article—

Extrapolating from all the above data, inside fatty-acid vesicles the first self-replicating RNA molecule could have started copying itself.

Exactly how could an RNA molecule have copied itself? Last biochem I studied, RNA is not used for self-copying, but rather as a coding template in the manufacturing of proteins. RNA itself is analogous to a strip of old-fashioned punched paper tape which contains computer code— useless by itself, requiring a tape reader to decode it and a computer to interpret it.

Suppose that RNA is left by itself to copy itself, without any chemical helpers. It would need to be left, not really by itself, but in a warm nucleotide soup with the right balance of chemicals (more nucleotides), which conveniently excludes impurities that might happily glom onto the reactive ends of nucleotides and muck up the process. How do you arrange for the existence of a suitable nucleotide soup, within your hypothetical “fatty-assid vesicle,” in which the molecules are prevented from reacting with one another before they can find their niche as part of a matching RNA strand?

Oh, I almost forgot— What process provides the RNA end caps?

And should RNA successfully reproduce and become a double-stranded DNA molecule, then what? Last I heard, cells are full of complex little mechanisms which selectively use DNA to make RNA snippets which in turn are sent to little intracellular factories which interpret its code to make proteins, which are then shipped off by other intracellular machinery to fulfill their specific functions.

How do these other handy (i.e. essential) intracellular mechanisms come into being? You will explain that, yes? That is a rude question, because I know that you will not explain it.

Your article describes a hand-waving complex biochemical process that you are not going to be able to demonstrate (get that word, demonstrate, as in, perform an actual scientific experiment to back up your assertions) in a pristine biochem lab with clean beakers and reaction containers and controlled temperatures, using purified reagents. In the real world abiogenesis had to happen in a glob of warm mud.

Doing so will surely net you a Nobel prize, so instead of making up absurd, impractical theories about how it might be done, why not just shut up and do it? If the first cell can be generated by randomly occurring events, surely a superbly educated biochemist like yourself can whip up some real results in your nifty lab, by let’s say, next weekend?
 
Your probability is not scientific, since you have not understood the science of evolution. Mutations are random, but cumulative natural selection feeding on them is not. There is no ‘random’ assembly of something like a single small human gene.
I find it hard to believe that a real biochemist would make such an incompetent, irrelevant set of statements. But, you seem to know the jargon. University of Phoenix degree? DeVry?

If there is “no random assembly of …a gene,” the remaining alternative is deliberate, controlled, thoughtfully engineered gene assembly.

I shall assume that you have become confused by the nonsense programmed into your brain by atheist nits in school, so shall explain a little bit about how evolution does and does not work.

I’m not doing this for your benefit, because I have learned from prior experience that people like you are going to reiterate whatever doctrine they’ve been programmed to believe, until some authority figure comes along and says, “That’s okay, boy. We finally figured out what’s really going on, and thanks for believing our mistakes. You don’t need to fetch that newspaper anymore, because we’re on the internet now.

I’m doing this because there are people with functioning minds, rather than programmed brains, who read CAF threads.

Let us consider a few simple things, tackling a subset of the problem. Genes are snippets of DNA which are used within biological cells to make proteins. These proteins are essential components of all critters.

The genes are not the proteins, and cannot actually make proteins. Genes are reduced to RNA molecules by protein-mechanisms within the cell, and decoded to make proteins by other cellular mechanisms.

Genes are subsections of a larger DNA molecule. They are contained within the molecule. Their endpoints are designated by specific markers which can be identified by cellular mechanisms, like a BEGIN-END sequence amid a string of computer code.

The known mechanisms for the modification of a gene are random events, which may include natural forms of splitting and splicing. Genes may also be modified by non-random human interventions, such as gene splicing.

Obviously, no Darwinian evolutionary scheme can allow non-random interventions. Therefore, all Darwinian mechanisms are random events.

The typical size of a small human gene is 900 nucleotide base-pairs, which will code for a specific protein. There is some overlap which allows for small variations within a gene to successfully code for the same protein. But bottom line is that before your body can make one of these small (300-amino acid) proteins, a coding gene must first be produced.

It must be produced by random mechanisms. Unless one allows for the intervention of a genetic engineer (e.g: Creator) there are no other possibilities.

Perhaps, a pair of some other genes might split and recombine in large sections, with the first half of one connecting to the back half of another. This is also a random event, one with extremely low probabilities of producing a useful gene. Whatever, the nucleotides comprising each half had to be assembled in a specific order. The probabilities for the random assembly of two half-genes, multiplied, become the probability for the final gene, the same value as that for a linear assembly of the gene. However, this probability is worsened by the odds against the half-genes dividing and recombining in a useful manner, and along triplet boundaries.

Since Darwinism cannot admit to the deliberate, engineered assembly of nucleotides, random chance is the only remaining option. The best possible odds for the random assembly of 900 nucleotide base pairs is, to be more precise than before, 1.4 x 10[sup]-542[/sup].

Natural selection has nothing whatsoever to do with the assembly of nucleotides in a particular sequence. I cannot understand why someone who claims to be a scientist would propose that N.S. intervenes, as if intelligently, in nucleotide sequencing. Are you making stuff up, just to assert some justification for your beliefs?

Natural selection can only take place after a gene has been modified and a new protein produced.

Natural selection is a very simple process which amounts to an evaluation-- does the end product work, and if it does, can it compete successfully in the marketplace? Natural selection determined short lifetimes for Edsels, Yugos, and Jimmy Carter’s alleged “presidency.” However, natural selection had nothing to do with the engineering of Edsels or Yugos, and played an uninformed part in Carter’s election, as in B.O’s. It is simply a marketplace evaluation which has no function in the absence of a market.

The “natural selection” in the above examples is based upon a slight measure of intelligence. In non-engineered biology it operates at lower, non-intelligent level, where the biological equivalent of Edsels and Yugos might survive for awhile simply because they work, at the level of, does worm A reproduce faster than worm B, thus surviving by depriving worm B of nutrients?

I defy you to explain to anyone here exactly how “natural selection” which itself is genuinely “natural,” i.e. random, can affect the random mutation of genes.

The words you’ve wrapped around this, above, are meaningless. Do better.
Indeed, it gets worse and downright absurd when someone does not understand how evolution works.
It sure does, Al. I have to wonder why you bother to be a Catholic, but frankly, since IMO you seem to exist happily in the la-la land of cognitive dissonance, I don’t really care.
 
candide west
**
Not sure how the numbers stack up on this one but from personal experience I know a number of people who were raised religious but later realised that their beliefs were just childish wish fulfilment and grew out of them.***

That is a frequent observation. After reading lots of Sigmund Freud and Bertrand Russell, I had it about my own repudiation of religion and adoption of atheism. Later I realized the argument is a two-edged sword. The blossoming atheist can be engaging in some juvenile wish-fulfillment of his own! 😉
Indeed, obviously whichever view we hold now we must consider to be correct and previous ones to be flawed in some way.

I hate to pester but do you have an answer to my original question? Unless it was only meant to be tounge in cheek? In which case apologies for misunderstanding?
 
Most atheists consider their position to be the result of some kind of intellectual failure on the part of religion to show evidence of Gods existence; this is essentially no different to agnosticism.
I am one of the few people who blames herself for not believing in God, who blames herself for not seeing evidence of God’s existence.
Which is what theists actually want: that people who don’t believe in God would blame themselves for that.

But this doesn’t help me either to find God. Continually blaming myself, seeing fault in myself, discrediting and disqualifying myself has so far not led to any certainty about God - just the opposite.
MindOverMatter2;8307609:
The metaphysical consequence of intellectual atheism is nihilism.
That would be the case in a world where there are no pleasures at all.
But its a bit more complicated than that. I can be agnostic of Gods existence in terms of true knowledge, and yet still believe in God according to faith; for example i can say that i don’t “know” if God exists for certain, but i have faith in God.
Then this is all you have: faith. You don’t actually know.
Agnosticism, as a principle of knowledge, does not preclude faith when properly understood. So it seems that believers and disbelievers are both equally entitled to the label of agnosticism, if by agnosticism we mean a limitation in scientific or metaphysical knowledge regarding the possible existence of some being or object.
Sure.
So where does that leave the atheists and agnostics on this forum? It seems to me that they need to redefine their position because their philosophical ideas are overlapping to the extent that one can no-longer consider them as being two separate philosophical positions.
Not at all. The only thing that may be necessary for more meaningful discussions is to drop the labels and stereotypes, and instead actually listen to what people say.

Labels and classifications make it appear that we know the other, when actually, we have caught the shadow and not the substance. Since we are convinced we know ourselves and others … [we] no longer actually see what is happening before us and in us, and, not knowing that we do not know, we make no effort to be in contact with the real. We continue to use labels to stereotype oursleves and others, and these labels have replaced human meanings, unique feelings and gowing life within and between persons.
(From: Clark Moustakas, Individuality and Encounter: A Brief Journey into Loneliness and Sensitivity Groups)

For me, talking to theists usually makes for profoundly depersonalizing, alienating experiences - I usually end up feeling like I don’t exist, don’t matter.

They tend to slap a label on me, and then they talk to that label and expect me to conform to it; otherwise, they accuse me of acting against God.

I make an effort to be assertive. But with theists, I have found that it usually does not work. They are unable or unwilling to reciprocate that way.
I wonder why that is.
 
I am one of the few people who blames herself for not believing in God, who blames herself for not seeing evidence of God’s existence.
Which is what theists actually want: that people who don’t believe in God would blame themselves for that.
I don’t understand. Where did i blame you? If for some reason you are incapable of seeing that belief in God is absolutely rational and evident through the things that are made, then that is really no fault of your own, so long as you are being honest.
But this doesn’t help me either to find God. Continually blaming myself, seeing fault in myself, discrediting and disqualifying myself has so far not led to any certainty about God - just the opposite.
It seems you are obsessed with feeling guilt. But what has that got to do with what i said.
That would be the case in a world where there are no pleasures at all.
That there is pleasure in the world is irrelevant to the existential consequences of disbelief. If you understood nihilism you would not have made that reply.

If the fleeting pleasures of life is all that you’re interested in, if that is enough for you, then i fail to see why you are posting here? Do us deluded Christians make you feel guilty, so now you want to attack us? Sounds like an insecure reaction. Maybe you need to reevaluate your honesty about the issue before criticizing one of my posts.
Then this is all you have: faith. You don’t actually know.
You don’t know what i know. Please don’t dictate to me what i know and don’t know.
My post was discussing the nature of atheism and agnosticism. I was trying to show people why they are not different at all if we define atheism as merely a reservation of belief until evidence is provided. My post is not meant to be an argument for the existence of God or a disproof of metaphysical-naturalism, so i don’t understand why you are so insecure that you need to respond in this manner.
Sure.

Not at all. The only thing that may be necessary for more meaningful discussions is to drop the labels and stereotypes, and instead actually listen to what people say.
I was once an atheist two. I fully understand the nature of both atheism and agnosticism. I am not using any stereo types.
For me, talking to theists usually makes for profoundly depersonalizing, alienating experiences - I usually end up feeling like I don’t exist, don’t matter.
I am sorry you feel that way. But surely you realize that if there is no God, no objective meaning, no moral value or purpose to life other than what people fantasize in their heads, then what you say, think, do, and feel, really doesn’t matter or give anything of any true value to existence accept a fantasy which is only of subjective value to those who are insecure enough to participate in that existential delusion you call a life worth living.

You speak of “you” as if their is an intrinsically valuable significance to the word. But In the absence of God, “You” (defined as an intrinsically valuable significant entity) do not exist. You are just a bag of chemicals, on an insignificant ball of rock, floating around in an insignificant universe, in which you are going to die and cease to exist in a relatively short period of time. You have no more value than cow dung. That you can think and speak is irrelevant.

The only way that man can truly preserve and validate the intrinsic value and significance of the entity called “You”, as an objective truth, is through the existence of God. Thats why many people put their hope in Gods existence, because they seek objective significance and moral value, a value which materialist society cannot give them. Man seeks God because he becomes aware of what it truly means to value ones own existence.
 
cho pilo;8344307:
I am one of the few people who blames herself for not believing in God, who blames herself for not seeing evidence of God’s existence.
Which is what theists actually want: that people who don’t believe in God would blame themselves for that.
I don’t understand. Where did i blame you? If for some reason you are incapable of seeing that belief in God is absolutely rational and evident through the things that are made, then that is really no fault of your own, so long as you are being honest.
It would have been better if she had put a qualifier in her statement (“Some” might fit for this statement). I don’t think she was referring to you blaming her. It may be possible to infer the nature of some life experiences from her statement if her words are examined dispassionately though.
 
I don’t understand. Where did i blame you? If for some reason you are incapable of seeing that belief in God is absolutely rational and evident through the things that are made, then that is really no fault of your own, so long as you are being honest.
Why wouldn’t I - or anyone else - be honest about their not believing in God?
That there is pleasure in the world is irrelevant to the existential consequences of disbelief. If you understood nihilism you would not have made that reply.
You said:
The metaphysical consequence of intellectual atheism is nihilism.
I contend this is not the case; I think you are missing several stages and road-forks.

An intellectual atheist can still be an epicurean. (And there is plenty of them.)
From epicureanism, people can become, for example, theists, or depraved hedonists (and from depraved hedonism go to nihilism).

But I do not think it automatically follows that an intellectual atheist is a nihilist. There is too much pleasure and beauty in this world - and people do experience them - to fall like you suggest.

I was once an atheist two. I fully understand the nature of both atheism and agnosticism. I am not using any stereo types.

Anytime anyone uses labels, such as the words “theist” or atheist," in conjunction with the name of a particular person or in reference to them, there is the possibility of stereotyping.
I am sorry you feel that way. But surely you realize that if there is no God, no objective meaning, no moral value or purpose to life other than what people fantasize in their heads, then what you say, think, do, and feel, really doesn’t matter or give anything of any true value to existence accept a fantasy which is only of subjective value to those who are insecure enough to participate in that existential delusion you call a life worth living.

You speak of “you” as if their is an intrinsically valuable significance to the word. But In the absence of God, “You” (defined as an intrinsically valuable significant entity) do not exist. You are just a bag of chemicals, on an insignificant ball of rock, floating around in an insignificant universe, in which you are going to die and cease to exist in a relatively short period of time. You have no more value than cow dung. That you can think and speak is irrelevant.

The only way that man can truly preserve and validate the intrinsic value and significance of the entity called “You”, as an objective truth, is through the existence of God. Thats why many people put their hope in Gods existence, because they seek objective significance and moral value, a value which materialist society cannot give them. Man seeks God because he becomes aware of what it truly means to value ones own existence.
Again, I think you don’t know much about atheism or agnosticism.

I think you are insensitively skipping several steps and simplifying things. Like in the example above of claiming intellectual atheists are nihilists.
It is this skipping and simplifying that gets you negative responses, not the fact that you talk about God.
 
Why wouldn’t I - or anyone else - be honest about their not believing in God?
Are you suggesting that people can’t be dishonest? I see no good reason to question a persons ability deceive his or her self. God requires sacrifices that some of us are not willing to make. Some of us want to define our own meaning and purpose, and God represents a threat to that desire.
An intellectual atheist can still be an epicurean.
An intellectual atheist can choose to be an epicurean, but that doesn’t change the metaphysical consequences of atheism.
Anytime anyone uses labels, such as the words “theist” or atheist," in conjunction with the name of a particular person or in reference to them, there is the possibility of stereotyping.
But not necessarily.
Again, I think you don’t know much about atheism or agnosticism.

I think you are insensitively skipping several steps and simplifying things. Like in the example above of claiming intellectual atheists are nihilists.
It is this skipping and simplifying that gets you negative responses, not the fact that you talk about God.
I think you are making a straw-man of what i said. If atheists were intellectually honest they would be nihilists, because there can be no objective meaning or moral value in a world where God does not exist. If objective reality is reduce to merely atomic actions and reactions it is meaningless to speak of moral truth or to consider raping and murdering children to be wrong, since they are just objects with no true value; and an honest person would see that. But many atheists are not intellectually honest, and many are ignorant of the consequential reality of their choice regarding religious beliefs, some atheists have been taking life for granted for so long, such as the beauty and pleasure of life, they have failed to see the inconsistency between their optimistic and moral attitude towards life and their choice to be atheists.

You call me insensitive, but in reality it is the reality you embrace in Gods absence that is insensitive to your existence as a person.
 
I simply can not grasp the mind of atheism. I wonder if there are any real atheists?
Apologies if this has already been given a thorough response - have not been online for a week, so just dipping back in.

I think it’s as fair to say there are ‘real’ atheists as that there are ‘real’ theists. I don’t think anyone can be totally convinced there’s a god, either. It’s an issue of belief, which is warranted by whether the balance of one’s experiences comes out on one side or the other.

I do think that a vastly different perspective arises from serious consideration of a godless universe. This is the basis of atheist philosophy.
Could it be those who call themselves atheists are simply critical because they have not been totally convinced? I don’t believe one can be totally convinced there is no God. I can understand one lacks total convince there is one, but think there is always a part of them that keeps wondering, keeps the door open, which would explain why we often see atheists in Christian forums or Christian related threads in political forums. I think they never want to be too far off from God, even if they are not convinced. May God open their hearts!
Sounds like you subscribe to Pascal’s wager.

But of course people keep wondering. That is why philosophy and science are not closed books, but open-ended in the quest for knowledge and understanding. There is no single decisive argument or piece of evidence for the existence or nonexistence of god. It’s a matter of what you believe. As I said, the world looks very different if you consider it from the perspective of atheism. It’s not a matter of wanting to be close to any concept of god, but a matter of wanting to understand the world and our lives. If there were genuine, unequivocal evidence for (or against) god, there would be no need to wonder.
 
Are you suggesting that people can’t be dishonest? I see no good reason to question a persons ability deceive his or her self.
I see no use in informing a person that she “deceives herself.”

What is she going to do? Blindly accept your judgment of her that she is deceiving herself?
God requires sacrifices that some of us are not willing to make. Some of us want to define our own meaning and purpose, and God represents a threat to that desire.
That may be a truism, yes.

But since it is anything but clear what it is that God wants, why would it be wrong to fall back on our own ideas about meaning and purpose?

Moreover, if God is our Creator, then whatever ideas about meaning and purpose we might have, will always necessarily be in line with His.

As His creations, we cannot have a value system that would be contradictory to God’s.
I think you are making a straw-man of what i said. If atheists were intellectually honest they would be nihilists, because there can be no objective meaning or moral value in a world where God does not exist. If objective reality is reduce to merely atomic actions and reactions it is meaningless to speak of moral truth or to consider raping and murdering children to be wrong, since they are just objects with no true value; and an honest person would see that. But many atheists are not intellectually honest, and many are ignorant of the consequential reality of their choice regarding religious beliefs, some atheists have been taking life for granted for so long, such as the beauty and pleasure of life, they have failed to see the inconsistency between their optimistic and moral attitude towards life and their choice to be atheists.
Again, I think you don’t know much about atheism or agnosticism, much less about people who on some polls identify themselves as atheists and agnostics.
And you are stereotyping.

You have a particular idea, a stereotype, of what an atheist is, and then you see actual people (such as me and some others) in line with that idea. And that makes you blind to everything else that there is or may be to us as persons.
You call me insensitive, but in reality it is the reality you embrace in Gods absence that is insensitive to your existence as a person.
You don’t know much about me.
 
I think you are making a straw-man of what i said. If atheists were intellectually honest they would be nihilists, because there can be no objective meaning or moral value in a world where God does not exist. If objective reality is reduce to merely atomic actions and reactions it is meaningless to speak of moral truth or to consider raping and murdering children to be wrong, since they are just objects with no true value; and an honest person would see that. But many atheists are not intellectually honest, and many are ignorant of the consequential reality of their choice regarding religious beliefs, some atheists have been taking life for granted for so long, such as the beauty and pleasure of life, they have failed to see the inconsistency between their optimistic and moral attitude towards life and their choice to be atheists.

You call me insensitive, but in reality it is the reality you embrace in Gods absence that is insensitive to your existence as a person.
They
  1. do not necessarily see their starting points as as certain as you see them,
  2. do not necessarily jump to conclusions like you do.
Like Habermas, you are making the mistake of presuming people are (or should be) always in touch with all their beliefs and have them fully worked out at all times, presenting them adequately at all times.

They
  1. do not necessarily see their starting points as as certain as you see them,
  2. do not necessarily jump to conclusions like you do.
Like Habermas, you are making the mistake of presuming people are (or should be) always in touch with all their beliefs and have them fully worked out at all times, presenting them adequately at all times.
 
MindOverMatter2;8349905:
Are you suggesting that people can’t be dishonest? I see no good reason to question a persons ability deceive his or her self. God requires sacrifices that some of us are not willing to make. Some of us want to define our own meaning and purpose, and God represents a threat to that desire.
I see no use in informing a person that she “deceives herself.”

What is she going to do? Blindly accept your judgment of her that she is deceiving herself?
Hey cho pilo, MindOverMatter2:

Your conversation has some similarities with other conversations I’ve seen in the past in which no bridges were successfully built to the other person’s side, no understanding was made between the two people, and the conversation just decayed into a volley of non-complimentary adjectives. I think the your conversation is heading in the same direction. Unless that’s any one’s objective I think your conversation is at a point where it can serve no further purpose. It is probably a good idea to make your closing words on your position and move onto other threads.
 
Which versions of the problem of evil do you have in mind?
I think the explanatory power of theism over the universe is astonishingly minute. That is, P(E|T & K) << .5, where E = the universe we observe around us, T = theism and K = our background knowledge.

When we talk about the problem of evil, the theist wants to say that the observation of evil isn’t surprising, given theism. This could be because of free-will, or…whatever. But, the point is the theist’s goal is to establish that theism has a high explanatory power over evil. Otherwise, evil will constitute significant evidence against theism.

So, I’d say the observance of the universe around us is surprising given theism, and therefore the theist is asking way to much of us to think evil is to be expected given God’s existence.
I find physicalism irrational because it undermines not only rationality but also morality and free will. Our sole certainty is the fact that we are thinking whereas the existence of physical objects is inferred from our perceptions.
I don’t think physicalism undermines either, obviously. Another thing to note is if physicalism were true, our phenomenological experiences would be the same. I’d still go on living as I always have, I’d just believe everything was physical, or supervened on the physical.
 
I think the explanatory power of theism over the universe is astonishingly minute. That is, P(E|T & K) << .5, where E = the universe we observe around us, T = theism and K = our background knowledge.
On what facts do you base this calculation? Where do you obtain your values?
When we talk about the problem of evil, the theist wants to say that the observation of evil isn’t surprising, given theism. This could be because of free-will, or…whatever. But, the point is the theist’s goal is to establish that theism has a high explanatory power over evil. Otherwise, evil will constitute significant evidence against theism.
Evil is significant only if it is demonstrated to be unnecessary.
So, I’d say the observance of the universe around us is surprising given theism, and therefore the theist is asking way to much of us to think evil is to be expected given God’s existence.
You seem to define evil as “that which causes suffering”. If so you need to explain how all suffering could be prevented in an orderly universe. Even David Hume conceded that some evil is inevitable. He argued that it is excessive without producing any statistics to justify his conclusion (which is based on emotion rather than logic… )
I don’t think physicalism undermines either, obviously. Another thing to note is if physicalism were true, our phenomenological experiences would be the same. I’d still go on living as I always have, I’d just believe everything was physical, or supervened on the physical.
Do you regard yourself as a biological machine incapable of controlling yourself? :confused:
 
Evil is significant only if it is demonstrated to be unnecessary.
Why should evil ever be necessary in a universe created by a perfectly good, omnipotent god? Why must order be balanced by disorder if there is such a divine orderer?
You seem to define evil as “that which causes suffering”. If so you need to explain how all suffering could be prevented in an orderly universe. Even David Hume conceded that some evil is inevitable. He argued that it is excessive without producing any statistics to justify his conclusion (which is based on emotion rather than logic… )
The point is not whether the evident suffering could be prevented in an orderly universe, but whether it would be prevented in a universe created and (according to some, maintained) by a perfectly good and perfectly capable god. Even given the observable fact that some suffering is necessary to bring about outcomes we would deem positive - such as childbirth, extraction of a bad tooth, or even simply the increased appreciation of pleasure that is often brought about by the experience of suffering - the question still remains as to why we must have this dichotomy if the universe is the province of a perfectly good, perfectly benevolent god who would not wish his creations to suffer if he could prevent it, and would be able to prevent it if he were all that theists claim. Childbirth could be painless; teeth could be prevented from rotting; appreciation of pleasure and satisfaction could be maximal without the need for pain and suffering - all this would be possible in a universe created by a perfectly good, omnipotent god.

The fact of the matter is that evil is far better explained in a godless universe than in one over which a good god presides. The possibility of an evil god is philosophically, yet not emotionally, satisfying. Theists must not only accept that evil occurs and endeavour to fit it into their worldview, but must also shoulder the burden of possibility - is evil, in fact, the intention of their god?
 
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