Questions for Catholics about God

[KathleenGee]

In response to your statement that God does not have substance, yes…God is outside time and space.

But He had to break through time and space in the revelation of Christ. The apostles say that Christ picked the time He wished to be revealed. And again, Christ is the Incarnate Word Made Flesh, the Living Word of God through which the universe was created.

Christ is the King of the Universe, King of Creation and we celebrate this feast at the end of the liturgical year.

God the Creator outside space and time, Christ the Word through which the universe received form and the Holy Spirit that gives creation life, all of one will, one subtance: God.

 

[abucs]

Thanks to the thread starter and all responders for their insights.

I acknowledge that any discussion of God is important and worthwhile, if bound to be only partial because our limited views and perspectives and knowledge are partial.

Partialism. The top is not the entire blanket, the centre is not the entire blanket, and the bottom is not the entire blanket. The doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God.

The top of the blanket can be fully blanket without being the entirety of the blanket.

…

Relational descriptors such as top, middle and bottom are also dependent on the different positions and viewpoints of a viewer.

I think we are viewing reality from a secondary, created environment and are thus incapable of seeing the blanket (or God, or reality more generally) as it truly is.

Because of this limitation on perception, this side of Creation our knowledge of God can only be partial and incomplete.

We shouldn’t then assume that people’s limited perceptions in this world then force a description of God as partial or incomplete in the heavenly sphere. (That is the underlying primary reality).

 

[KathleenGee]

SalamKhan…

We speak of the Trinity, to understand your belief better…

What is the reason Allah created the world?

Why did Allah create the world?

Did Allah create some things bad and others good?

 

[SalamKhan]

To all the posters who have said that God is beyond human comprehension. I understand that, and acknowledge that. But as limited as our human understanding may be, we nonetheless possess understanding, which is a gift from God. Surely, what God reveals about Himself at the very least should be coherent, according to our limitations.

What is the reason Allah created the world?

Why did Allah create the world?

Did Allah create some things bad and others good?

We do not say that Allah has a motive for anything He does, as He is not dependent or in need of anything or anyone. Rather, we say that there is a wisdom for what Allah does, which may or may not be clear to us.

Yes, we believe that Allah is the creator of both good and evil, if that was what you were asking.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you.

Also, I read your identity as with a particular branch within Islam.

What part of the world do we find your branch of Islam? Is it tolerated by others within Islam?

I remember sharing at Christmas a wonderful Muslim who lived in Pakistan, but was a minority there, ‘Ahmadi’ the name?

Thanks again!

In the meantime, I will reflect and pray more how Islam understands the nature of God and how it differs from Judeo Christianity, and in particular the universal Christian faith, the apostolic faith we see of the Patriarchs and Rome – Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople.

kathleen

 

[SalamKhan]

Thank you.

Also, I read your identity as with a particular branch within Islam.

What part of the world do we find your branch of Islam? Is it tolerated by others within Islam?

I remember sharing at Christmas a wonderful Muslim who lived in Pakistan, but was a minority there, ‘Ahmadi’ the name?

Thanks again!

In the meantime, I will reflect and pray more how Islam understands the nature of God and how it differs from Judeo Christianity, and in particular the universal Christian faith, the apostolic faith we see of the Patriarchs and Rome – Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople.

kathleen

Within the Ahlus Sunnah Wa’al Jama`at (People of the Sunnah and the Congregation), otherwise known as Sunni Islam, there are four rites:

Hanifi- named after Imam Abu Hanifa, and is the rite practiced by the majority of Muslims in South Asia.
Maliki- named after Imam Malik, and is the rite practiced by the majority of Muslims in North Africa.
Shaafi- named after Imam Shaafi, and is the rite practiced by Muslims in Africa and other Arabic speaking countries.
Hanbal- named after Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and is the rite practiced by the majority of Muslims in Saudi Arabia.

There are also two creeds:

Ashari- named after Imam Abu Hasan al Ashari, and was the dominant creed of orthodox Sunni Islam, and is currently the creed of the majority of Muslims in North Africa and Arabic speaking countries.
Maturidi- named after Imam Mansur Maturidi, and is the creed of the majority of Muslims in South Asia.

Ever since the 18th century, certain scholars from South Asia, commonly known as the Deobandi, claim to be of the Hanafi rite, and claim to be of the Maturidi creed, although their understanding of Ilm al Kalam (Rational Theology) is too poor for them to consider themselves of either the Ashari or Maturidi creed. Also, certain 'reformers' emerged from modern day Saudi Arabia, commonly known as the Wahhabi, but refer to themselves as Salafi (followers of the first three generations of Islam), they are commonly of the Hanbali rite, and reject both the Ashari (although they generally respect Imam Abu Hasan al Ash`ari) and Maturidi creeds as heretical; their ‘movement’, although really just a trend, has influence over Muslims throughout the world, similar to Protestantism.

The Ahmadiyya are not Muslims, there has been a unanimous consensus between all of the scholars of Sunni Islam on this. The Ahmadiyya are followers of the false prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.

If you would like to learn more about orthodox Islamic theology as articulated by the Ash`ari creed, I highly recommend reading Gibril Fouad Haddad’s Islamic Doctrines & Beliefs series, specifically Volume 2 (named Correct Islamic Doctrine/Islamic Doctrine), and also highly recommend reading the Sanusi Creed, specifically as presented by Shaykh Sa’id Foudah.

I hope I was a big help.

 

[ffg]

That reminds me of another question. Why is it that prior to Isa ibn Maryam (AS), all the prophets, the righteous and the believers among the children of Israel did not recognise the Trinity? The usual answer from Christians is that Revelation was in its infancy, as the aforementioned would not understand the Trinity. But clearly, not even Christians to this very day understand the Trinity, referring to it as a divine mystery. So the question still stands.

I just started reading this thread, so I’m sure this conversation is well past here.

But I can appreciate the OP and this question.

The Trinity is first hinted at when Jesus was about 12 and found in the temple when His parents lost him. (in the OT, references to ‘spirit of God’ had only humans to receive and teach and would not have had God, in the flesh to clarify a distinct but united Person)

When questioned by His parents why he was there Luke 2: 49 -

" And He said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
(Luke 2: 41-52 - usccb.org/bible/luke/2 )

The first time all three are mentioned is at Jesus’ baptism. (Luke 3: 21-22 - usccb.org/bible/luke/3 )

Prior to the incarnation (God becoming Man in Jesus), there would not have been a need of specificity of the Trinity.

As God is outside of time, it is only time’s limits that have us seeing and asking ‘Why not then?’

To God, time is seen in whole. Revealing truth matters not ‘when’ as God is not limited by His creation.

It seems though, that what drives the ‘when’ of more detail is sin. But that’s just my analysis.

 

[SalamKhan]

I just started reading this thread, so I’m sure this conversation is well past here.

But I can appreciate the OP and this question.

The Trinity is first hinted at when Jesus was about 12 and found in the temple when His parents lost him. (in the OT, references to ‘spirit of God’ had only humans to receive and teach and would not have had God, in the flesh to clarify a distinct but united Person)

When questioned by His parents why he was there Luke 2: 49 -

" And He said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
(Luke 2: 41-52 - usccb.org/bible/luke/2 )

The first time all three are mentioned is at Jesus’ baptism. (Luke 3: 21-22 - usccb.org/bible/luke/3 )

Prior to the incarnation (God becoming Man in Jesus), there would not have been a need of specificity of the Trinity.

As God is outside of time, it is only time’s limits that have us seeing and asking ‘Why not then?’

To God, time is seen in whole. Revealing truth matters not ‘when’ as God is not limited by His creation.

It seems though, that what drives the ‘when’ of more detail is sin. But that’s just my analysis.

You make a fair point, but whilst the question of “why not then?” does not stand, the question of why the patriarchs, prophets, the believers among the children of Israel, etc. did not recognise the Trinity still does stand.

 

[KathleenGee]

SalamKhan,

Thanks for taking the time of explaining the different branches of Islam as well as the links and will get to them soon to study.

Now going to your last post here, you ask why the Jewish people did not accept Him.

In the Old Testament it speaks of Him Who will die on a ‘tree’…and He will be no stranger to suffering, we recall the prophetic texts of Isaiah.

At His presentation in the Temple when He was only 40 days old, it was prophesized that a sword would pierce the soul of Mary, that her Son would be the rise and fall of many of Israel.

Note that Christ did not choose one apostle to witness for Him. He chose 12 apostles, a community, and we know reading the Gospels they would argue among themselves before Him, and He would rebuke and correct them. So we don’t depend on one person but a gathering of the 12, checks and balances…the 12 representing the 12 tribes of Israel, and also the perfection of number comprised of the Church.

There seems to be no reason why Allah created the universe, no motivation.

And the first Church, which began at Pentecost, was the beginning of the Church, where the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles, Mary, and over 160 other witnesses. The apostles came out and spoke and although many people in the crowd spoke different languages, they understood them.

The first Church was Jewish. The Church of Rome was Jewish comprised of those who fled in the Diaspora when Rome expelled the Jews from their land.

So, many of the Jews ‘rose’ with Christ, and many fell for not accepting Christ, and this was His great sorrow, and we recall Him weeping over Jerusalem where His Father’s house, the Temple stood, its ministers rejecting Him, He betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, His own apostles, except John, fleeing and in fear.

What I am alluding to in regards to the Holy Trinity, in contrast to Allah, is that God created us out of pure love. He gave to mankind the earth to enjoy, to cultivate, to be in dominion over it.

Sin broke the relationship between God and Adam and Eve…but before them after they were expelled from the Garden, was the Tree of Life…Hope in God’s love and reconciliation.

The reconciliation came with the coming of the Messiah, Christ, the fulfillment of Abraham’s son Isaac, Christ Who chose to be born in the Constellation of Aries the Ram, but poor, powerless, a baby.

The lowest God can come down to us is as Man. Christ is the Living Word of God through which the universe was made, Christ who gave form to all of creation. It was said as He hung on the cross before He died, ‘He rises all things up to Himself’…

The difference is that God created us to be loved by Him, and He gave us His only Begotten Son to save and redeem us and restore us, and through Word, Sacrament, and to continue to teach and comfort us through the Holy Spirit Who breathes life.

Restored to God in Christ, nourished by Christ, we made adopted sons and daughters by this communion with Him…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We are not slaves…but friends as Christ called us…and restored with the Lord God.

The first vocation of a Universal Catholic – I mean the apostolic Church that incorporates the Patriarchs and Rome – is to enter into the life of the Holy Trinity.

So yes, Thomas Aquinas can speak of God in abstract philosophical terms and he wa able to prove the existence of God through philosophy in the Aristotle tradition, Cause and Effect, God the Unmoved Mover…the only constant.

And Thomas one day was given a glimpse of heaven, and afterwards he said all his incredible theology was only as straw.

The Holy Trinity is the means we enter into communion with God, with all of creation with each other…and even within our own being. This communion is outside of us, but we enter it, one day at a time.

We experience God the Creator, we experience Christ Who said He is the visible face of God – the Father, and the Holy Spirit – His gifts of the virtues, so that one is very rich living in God and then you can see why there were martyrs in the past who refused to marry but only wanted God alone, and why the Lord choses men to be His ministers, a calling to work the kingdom.

Any priest can tell you he is not worthy for this great calling, and is happy and most fulfilled in his vocation.

So what I am getting at is the life we live as Christians in the full deposit of faith in the apostolic tradition, is lived out in some ways the same as Muslims but that we enjoy this most incredible interior life through the Holy Trinity as adopted sons and daughters.

 

[SalamKhan]

SalamKhan,

Thanks for taking the time of explaining the different branches of Islam as well as the links and will get to them soon to study.

Now going to your last post here, you ask why the Jewish people did not accept Him.

We experience God the Creator, we experience Christ Who said He is the visible face of God – the Father, and the Holy Spirit – His gifts of the virtues, so that one is very rich living in God and then you can see why there were martyrs in the past who refused to marry but only wanted God alone, and why the Lord choses men to be His ministers, a calling to work the kingdom.

The summary of my last post to you is as follows:

Within Sunni Islam there are four rites (Hanafi, Maliki, Shaafi & Hanbali) and two orthodox creeds (Ashari & Maturidi), and that the so called ‘reformers’ known as the Deobandis and Wahhabis (the latter often referring to themselves as Salafis) have deviated from Sunni Islam to a certain extent. The Ahmadis however are not considered part of Islam altogether.

I did not ask why the Jewish people did not accept Isa ibn Maryam (AS). Even we Muslims accept Isa ibn Maryam (AS) as a prophet, messenger, and the Messiah. But we reject the Trinity, just as the prophets, the righteous and the believers from what you call the Old Testament period did not recognise such a thing, and we also believe that Isa ibn Maryam (AS) in reality did not teach such a thing. My question was why the believers among what you call the Old Testament period did not recognise a Trinity if this was the eternal truth about God.

This is phenomenology, relying on personal experience. The Sufis claim to experience the truth, and although in Islam we consider Sufism to be beneficial, relying on personal experiences is not the objective way to initially arrive at the truth.

 

[MartinJordan]

But we reject the Trinity, just as the prophets, the righteous and the believers from what you call the Old Testament period did not recognise such a thing, and we also believe that Isa ibn Maryam (AS) in reality did not teach such a thing.

Then you’ve come to the wrong place to tell us about the Trinity and the Old Testament.

How do you know that Isa didn’t teach such a thing? Can you trace his followers what he taught them?

On top of this, the Old Testament clearly mentions Isaac as the sacrifice, but I’m sure you’ll disagree with that right?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi I believe you have been misled, the Church has always believed in the Holy Trinity and wrote it down as a doctrinal belief of the Church at the 325AD Nicene counsel in the Nicene Creed virtually the same profession of faith we say at every Sunday Mass today. God doesn’t oppose Himself. He can’t because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One ‘consubstantially’ with each other. And that is written in the Creed as well. And God isn’t an ‘essense’ rather God is God.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi Salam you clearly didn’t read what I said correctly. I didn’t say God was a spirit, I said God is Spirit. There is a big difference. And to be spirit is a substance. Whether it is a tangible substance or not is of no significance when talking about the spiritual because there are very real realities cause by the spiritual. Now what you believe is your belief so why ask the question when you clearly are not taking the time to understand another point of view than your own?. Know the Son and you will know the Father.

Exactly. (See bolded).



MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

I answered above the distinctions are real.

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

Then you’ve come to the wrong place to tell us about the Trinity and the Old Testament.

How do you know that Isa didn’t teach such a thing? Can you trace his followers what he taught them?

On top of this, the Old Testament clearly mentions Isaac as the sacrifice, but I’m sure you’ll disagree with that right?

MJ

We know he didn’t teach such a thing, primarily because of what Allah revealed to our Prophet Muhammad (S).

Christians cannot verify that their teachings go back to Isa ibn Maryam (AS), they cannot even verify that their traditions go back to his disciples or verify that his disciples wrote various New Testament documents except from secondary sources at best.

In what you call the Old Testament, the Israelites were required to offer their first born sons, after what Ibrahim (AS) did. If the name of Ishaq (AS) is not an interpolation, and Allah knows best, then consider the fact that both Ismail (AS) and Ishaq (AS) were his first born sons from different wives, so both the Biblical and Islamic account could have happened.

 

[MartinJordan]

We know he didn’t teach such a thing, primarily because of what Allah revealed to our Prophet Muhammad (S).

Christians cannot verify that their teachings go back to Isa ibn Maryam (AS), they cannot even verify that their traditions go back to his disciples or verify that his disciples wrote various New Testament documents except from secondary sources at best.

In what you call the Old Testament, the Israelites were required to offer their first born sons, after what Ibrahim (AS) did. If the name of Ishaq (AS) is not an interpolation, and Allah knows best, then consider the fact that both Ismail (AS) and Ishaq (AS) were his first born sons from different wives, so both the Biblical and Islamic account could have happened.

The trouble with all of this SK, is that it will be a serious problem to tell us Christians, what we’ve known that Jesus really lived and breathed and loved and died for us, that we can’t verify this. We love my friend because Jesus taught his disciples/Apostles to teach us how to love God.

See my signature.

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Christians cannot verify that their teachings go back to Isa ibn Maryam (AS), they cannot even verify that their traditions go back to his disciples or verify that his disciples wrote various New Testament documents except from secondary sources at best.

Sorry, I wanted ask initially,

a) Which “Christians” cannot verify their traditions?

b) Can you name one follower of Jesus (Isa) according to First hand record from Islam tracing teachings?

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

The trouble with all of this SK, is that it will be a serious problem to tell us Christians, what we’ve known that Jesus really lived and breathed and loved and died for us, that we can’t verify this. We love my friend because Jesus taught his disciples/Apostles to teach us how to love God.

See my signature.

Peace be with you.

MJ

It does not matter. In the early centuries of Christianity, Catholics weren’t the only ones who claimed to trace their teachings back to Isa ibn Maryam (AS) and his disciples; there were many other groups who claimed the same or similar things? How can you verify that it was the Catholics who were right in their claim?

In the early centuries of Islam however, as soon as there was division, men began to painstakingly make the effort to collect and write down the oral traditions, and verify their authenticity by examining the chain of narrators, investigating the biography of each narrator, etc.

 

[ffg]

You make a fair point, but whilst the question of “why not then?” does not stand, the question of why the patriarchs, prophets, the believers among the children of Israel, etc. did not recognise the Trinity still does stand.

If the answer is ‘God knows the details about Himself are so far beyond creation’s understanding, or ability to understand, that giving the details in appropriate time is necessary’, then so be it.

But we like to analyze.

Experience solidifies the foundation of our belief. What if I was really 20 feet tall and I wrote on here that I was 20 feet tall.

Would you believe?

How much greater is it for God to say ‘I am 3 person’s’ and not show it?

Do you think before God was able to be experienced in the flesh / and first witnessed as 3 at the baptism of Jesus, the patriarchs, prophets, & believers would accept? We see sin throughout history.

Sadly, we accept the reality of sin before we accept the reality of God.

Perhaps we should analyze what the relationship of God would have been like with these early folks, if it existed.

The first person?

Do you think the first person would have known God ‘is’?

I would like to make a clarification as well. In the story of creation, ‘let Us…’ is used in the 26th stanza.

Text is found here - Genesis 1: 26 ( usccb.org/bible/genesis/1 )

26 Then God said: Let us make* human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.

It seems most purposeful, as why not start the story with ‘Let Us’?

A change 26 lines in seems very much like the guy in the neon shirt holding a John 3:16 sign in the back of the end zone.

This is the first hint, right at the beginning.

 

[SalamKhan]

If the answer is ‘God knows the details about Himself are so far beyond creation’s understanding, or ability to understand, that giving the details in appropriate time is necessary’, then so be it.

But we like to analyze.

Experience solidifies the foundation of our belief. What if I was really 20 feet tall and I wrote on here that I was 20 feet tall.

Would you believe?

How much greater is it for God to say ‘I am 3 person’s’ and not show it?

Do you think before God was able to be experienced in the flesh / and first witnessed as 3 at the baptism of Jesus, the patriarchs, prophets, & believers would accept? We see sin throughout history.

Sadly, we accept the reality of sin before we accept the reality of God.

Perhaps we should analyze what the relationship of God would have been like with these early folks, if it existed.

The first person?

Do you think the first person would have known God ‘is’?

I would like to make a clarification as well. In the story of creation, ‘let Us…’ is used in the 26th stanza.

Text is found here - Genesis 1: 26 ( usccb.org/bible/genesis/1 )

26 Then God said: Let us make* human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.

It seems most purposeful, as why not start the story with ‘Let Us’?

A change 26 lines in seems very much like the guy in the neon shirt holding a John 3:16 sign in the back of the end zone.

This is the first hint, right at the beginning.

I suggest you read through the thread again.