F
ffg
Guest
Are you not the one looking for answers? You said the question still stands.
Good luck with your truth hunting.
- Status
Good luck with your truth hunting.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, the Christians have always believed in One God as others said.
The Muslims and Jews believe in God and the Holy Spirit, that is two.
You agree with the constant that God is unchangeable, is outside substance.
How can you explain then that Allah is giving Muhammed orders that contradict the 10 commandments that have been with the Jews since Moses? And we Christians also hold the commandments as well.
And you cannot give us the reason why Allah created the world…why would he? What is the purpose of creation?..an enslavement? Why would Allah contradict the commandments given Moses…and note how the Jews advanced in their culture. You see their salvation history, their ups and downs, their failures, their successes…human relationship with God…
God revealing Himself to a gathering of people, not one human as Muhammed with no disciples, no witnesses, no questioning.
The Catholic Church has the highest objective documentation of any institution in the world. The apostles exhorted, ‘Write it down!’. They said if all the information from the Vatican archives were put on computer, the information could go out into outer space…to the moon? I cannot remember…and back. We have 2,000 years of documented history.
And the Church at the beginning utilized the Septuagint tradition of Scripture…the very one that Christ and His apostles used. What sources do you use?
One of the issues of the Vatican in its attempt to dialogue with Islam is that it teach what we truly believe and not what any competitive, contradictory source tells you.
I explained to you the life in the Holy Trinity…and it is about relationship, about reconciliation with God and all of creation. God created all things good out of love.
The Muslims and Jews believe in God and the Holy Spirit, that is two.
You agree with the constant that God is unchangeable, is outside substance.
How can you explain then that Allah is giving Muhammed orders that contradict the 10 commandments that have been with the Jews since Moses? And we Christians also hold the commandments as well.
And you cannot give us the reason why Allah created the world…why would he? What is the purpose of creation?..an enslavement? Why would Allah contradict the commandments given Moses…and note how the Jews advanced in their culture. You see their salvation history, their ups and downs, their failures, their successes…human relationship with God…
God revealing Himself to a gathering of people, not one human as Muhammed with no disciples, no witnesses, no questioning.
The Catholic Church has the highest objective documentation of any institution in the world. The apostles exhorted, ‘Write it down!’. They said if all the information from the Vatican archives were put on computer, the information could go out into outer space…to the moon? I cannot remember…and back. We have 2,000 years of documented history.
And the Church at the beginning utilized the Septuagint tradition of Scripture…the very one that Christ and His apostles used. What sources do you use?
One of the issues of the Vatican in its attempt to dialogue with Islam is that it teach what we truly believe and not what any competitive, contradictory source tells you.
I explained to you the life in the Holy Trinity…and it is about relationship, about reconciliation with God and all of creation. God created all things good out of love.
F
ffg
Guest
Well, consistency is good.
If you understand, then the question is not outstanding.
If not, then I’m happy to have the conversation - none of my questions were sarcastic.
I like to think about this stuff very structured if / then.
Sometimes people come in to these questions from a very complicated standpoint, expecting some kind of miracle answer.
Understanding is a slow process, there are so many puzzle pieces (for those of us more like doubting Thomas).
S
SalamKhan
Guest
No, we do not.
The Sharia Law only contradicts the Sabbath from the ten commandments. There was nothing evil in violating the Sabbath except disobedience to Allah, just as there is nothing evil today in consuming swine except disobedience to Allah. These are disciplinary laws, not moral laws, given by Allah to test our obedience towards Him. And Allah has the authority to abrogate any disciplinary law.
Allah is independent from His creation. If He were dependent, that would make Him contingent, and not necessary. I have already answered this before.
Incorrect. Our Prophet (S) was asked questions, we have more information about Prophet Muhammad (S) and what he taught than any of the previous Prophets. There were many witnesses to his inimitable miracles, such as the splitting of the moon and the providing water with his finger tips.
And yet they still decided to revise the Latin Vulgate according to modern textual criticism, and publish the Nova Vulgata. No matter, does the Vatican possess an entire corpus of all the verified traditions that can be traced back to Isa ibn Maryam and his disciples? Surely, they could have ended the schism (or at least diminished its effects) with the Eastern Churches long ago if they possessed such a corpus.
The Septuagint is the Old Testament, not the New. Nonetheless, the Latin Vulgate (now the Nova Vulgata) is the official Bible of the Catholic Church; originally composed by Jerome, who believed that the Hebrew text more reliable than the Septuagint text.
F
ffg
Guest
Considering the old (OT) was full of prophecy, then doesn’t it make sense to capture the fulfillment of the prophecy? (Gospels)
From prophecy(OT) to fulfillment (Gospels) plus early events of the disbursing of the information (Acts & letters). A nice full picture from which to study.
The same message that Jesus and the Apostles taught, is the message today through the CC.
Obviously, a fulfillment of a prophecy is a focal point over a prophecy.
I can guess how much it will cost to fix my car, but when I see the bill, the reality of the guess has it’s substance.
But that doesn’t mean the prophecy is out the window.
That’s why at Mass, there is typically a reading from the OT, NT (acts or letters), and Gospels.
From prophecy(OT) to fulfillment (Gospels) plus early events of the disbursing of the information (Acts & letters). A nice full picture from which to study.
The same message that Jesus and the Apostles taught, is the message today through the CC.
Obviously, a fulfillment of a prophecy is a focal point over a prophecy.
I can guess how much it will cost to fix my car, but when I see the bill, the reality of the guess has it’s substance.
But that doesn’t mean the prophecy is out the window.
That’s why at Mass, there is typically a reading from the OT, NT (acts or letters), and Gospels.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
The Catholic Church takes Truth and Faith very seriously and Jesus started a Church. The whole purpose is to evangelize proclaiming the Good News.
Please name one follower of Isa. So then we can talk and see if there are some common things instead of debating over claims (which has been covered long before atleast from 2004 here with Muslims).
Peace be with you.
MJ
K
KathleenGee
Guest
When I point out contradiction between Judeo Christianity and Islam, I take to heart the teachings of Christ, the Beatitudes, not hating one’s brother, not living by the sword, forgiveness and reconciliation…about serving those who are not our family and friends or people of our same faith…how Christ is there among the poor, the suffering, those in prison (we assume for committing sins), those naked and hungry.
It doesn’t matter if they are fellow Christians or not, it is anyone.
What I am getting at is that in and of itself…the Creed that states as Christ Himself said, that God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. But we are human, and we ourselves cannot fully comprehend Who God is because we are creatures.
So this concept in the Trinity in and of itself in one sense is taken as mystery and accepted in faith.
Faith is living in mystery, where we don’t have control over our lives, but there is the constancy of living out God’s will…and this entering into the Holy Trinity with God Himself
And in God, coming into communion with our neighbor as well as ourselves…in love.
This love of God for us is very evident.
But as Muslims have issues with the Holy Trinity, I have issues understanding Allah’s purpose for creating this world. I have issues about Muhammed in his House of War against anyone who does not accept Islam, these practices of Medina.
In Saudi Arabia there are teachings in text books to wipe out Christianity. Or to kill the infidels.
This is a complete contradiction to Christ and that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind with all our strength, to love our neighbor as ourselves and in doing so we fulfill the 10 commandments.
Our beliefs uphold the sanctity of life, our God gives us purpose when there is no hope, the carrying of the Cross in our daily lives helps us to live through things we cannot change, and see the Cross as purifying us of our inclination to do wrong.
The Holy Trinity, although in essence a mystery in and of itself, is God providing us new life and fulfillment, where in life, we should extend His life and love to others in living out the Beatitudes and mercy.
True religion is not about competition or my religion is better than yours.
True religion raises us up to be saved from sin and to be redeemed one day at a time to become a new creation.
Can you follow me? The Holy Trinity brings us life, not enslavement, not competition, not death or hatred…but Life. Relationship. Communion…a vastly different effect from that of the purpose of another type of belief where there is this detachment from us.
We are not slaves but adopted sons and daughters…and this makes up for the loss suffered by Adam and Eve, our first parents.
True religion restores us as one great human family…relationships…
Is this helping in your understanding of how we believe in the Holy Trinity?
It doesn’t matter if they are fellow Christians or not, it is anyone.
What I am getting at is that in and of itself…the Creed that states as Christ Himself said, that God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. But we are human, and we ourselves cannot fully comprehend Who God is because we are creatures.
So this concept in the Trinity in and of itself in one sense is taken as mystery and accepted in faith.
Faith is living in mystery, where we don’t have control over our lives, but there is the constancy of living out God’s will…and this entering into the Holy Trinity with God Himself
And in God, coming into communion with our neighbor as well as ourselves…in love.
This love of God for us is very evident.
But as Muslims have issues with the Holy Trinity, I have issues understanding Allah’s purpose for creating this world. I have issues about Muhammed in his House of War against anyone who does not accept Islam, these practices of Medina.
In Saudi Arabia there are teachings in text books to wipe out Christianity. Or to kill the infidels.
This is a complete contradiction to Christ and that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind with all our strength, to love our neighbor as ourselves and in doing so we fulfill the 10 commandments.
Our beliefs uphold the sanctity of life, our God gives us purpose when there is no hope, the carrying of the Cross in our daily lives helps us to live through things we cannot change, and see the Cross as purifying us of our inclination to do wrong.
The Holy Trinity, although in essence a mystery in and of itself, is God providing us new life and fulfillment, where in life, we should extend His life and love to others in living out the Beatitudes and mercy.
True religion is not about competition or my religion is better than yours.
True religion raises us up to be saved from sin and to be redeemed one day at a time to become a new creation.
Can you follow me? The Holy Trinity brings us life, not enslavement, not competition, not death or hatred…but Life. Relationship. Communion…a vastly different effect from that of the purpose of another type of belief where there is this detachment from us.
We are not slaves but adopted sons and daughters…and this makes up for the loss suffered by Adam and Eve, our first parents.
True religion restores us as one great human family…relationships…
Is this helping in your understanding of how we believe in the Holy Trinity?
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Must thank you for bringing up Joachim of Fiore . Never heard of him
But just to comment I found this from The Canons of the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 (Source: sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/lateran4.asp) Canon 2:
When therefore the Truth prays to the Father for the faithful, saying: “I will that they be one in us, even as we are one” (John 7: 22), this term “one” is understood first for the faithful, as implying a union of charity in grace, then for the divine persons, as implying a unity of identity in nature; as the Truth says in another place: “Be you perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5: 48); as if He would say more clearly: be perfect by the perfection of grace as your heavenly Father is perfect by the perfection of nature, namely, each in his own way, because between the Creator and the creature there cannot be a likeness so great that the unlikeness is not greater. If therefore anyone presume to defend or approve the teaching of the aforesaid Joachim on this point, let him be repressed by all as a heretic.
In this, however, **we do not wish to derogate in anything from the monastery of Flora, which Joachim himself founded, since therein is both the regular life and salutary observance, but chiefly because the same Joachim ordered that his writings be submitted to us to be approved or corrected by the judgment of the Apostolic See, dictating a letter which he subscribed with his own hand,in which he firmly confesses that he holds that faith which the Roman Church holds **, which by the **will of God **is the mother and mistress of all the faithful.
Peace be with you.
MJ
F
ffg
Guest
Are there any questions that are still outstanding?
Thanks,
Thanks,
meltzerboy
New member
Relationships who also have distinct functions or roles?
meltzerboy
New member
You might. We have some knowledgeable Catholics here. Be patient.
Very interesting questions, BTW.
F
ffg
Guest
Non taken, thanks.
It’s for you.
I did see one that I think you were waiting on about OT activities, but I’m not sure if it’s complete.
Not sure if you had a specific event in mind.
The OT is many genre’s, it wouldn’t lead to a good conclusion to use a broad brush.
But - in general, God acts where sin is great.
Context of each situation is so important.
F
ffg
Guest
I think that would depend on the act.
In creating we don’t see "I’ll create this, you create that’.
But in teaching we see the holy spirit at work, the Son at work, etc.
S
steve_b
Guest
since the Trinity seems to be your main focus,
Here’s from the Catechism. ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=trinity&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
The search box will allow you to search on other topics and words as well.
J
jmcrae
Guest
They were living at a time when the concept of a spiritual God was still a mind-blowing concept. The surrounding tribes and nations followed stone, bronze, and golden gods - physical entities that they could see and touch, which they believed to have divine powers and personalities confined inside them. Their question would have been, what evidence do you have for a God that you can’t see?
God reveals Himself to us one idea at a time. Jesus Christ is the full revelation of God, but we are still learning it.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
This am I read St. Cyril who spoke of the life in the 300’s who spoke of the Holy Trinity.
And I also read up on the Septuagint…
We have to be careful of the sources we use or how we understand accurate sources.
When I get the time will hope to write out St. Cyril’s, a portion on one of his catecheses…a number of them.
And I also read up on the Septuagint…
We have to be careful of the sources we use or how we understand accurate sources.
When I get the time will hope to write out St. Cyril’s, a portion on one of his catecheses…a number of them.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
This am, still pondering on this thread…
The Holy Trinity is in essence a mystery.
It can only be best understood on the human level:
How does God see human beings?
Why did God make us? He didn’t create out of a vacuum. Would He create things He loved and hated?
What purpose is belief when it is used to go to war with other human beings - working within a specific time period…you convert now or you die…?
Why not demonstrate the reason for faith in God rather than wipe them out?
Our belief in the Holy Trinity is not directed towards domination.
The Holy Trinity is in essence a mystery.
It can only be best understood on the human level:
How does God see human beings?
Why did God make us? He didn’t create out of a vacuum. Would He create things He loved and hated?
What purpose is belief when it is used to go to war with other human beings - working within a specific time period…you convert now or you die…?
Why not demonstrate the reason for faith in God rather than wipe them out?
Our belief in the Holy Trinity is not directed towards domination.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
You cannot understand the Holy Trinity in itself in all understanding or else you are God.
You must come to know the One True God through His effects…
St. Cyril’s Jerusalem catecheses going back to the 300’s…‘When we were baptized into Christ and clothed ourselves in Hi, we were transformed into the likeness of the Son of God.’
‘Christ’s anointing was not by human hands, nor was it with ordinary oil. On the contrary, having destined him to be the Savior of the world, the Father himself anointed him with the Holy Spirit: Jesus of Nazareth. The words of Peter bear witness to this: Your throne, O God, shall endure for ever; your royal scepter is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above all your fellows…the Holy Spirit the source of spiritual joy. But we too have been anointed with oil, and by this anointing we have entered into fellowship with Christ and have received a share in his life…beware of thinking this is simple ordinary oil and nothing else. After the invocation of the Spirit it is no longer ordinary oil but the gift of Christ, and by the presence of his divinity it becomes the instrument through which we receive the Holy Spirit. While symbolically, on our foreheads and senses, our bodies are anointed with this oil that we see, our souls are sanctified by the holy And life giving Spirit.’
The Holy Trinity is the author of life. He does not come to enslave us, to use the sword to kill us.
You must come to know the One True God through His effects…
St. Cyril’s Jerusalem catecheses going back to the 300’s…‘When we were baptized into Christ and clothed ourselves in Hi, we were transformed into the likeness of the Son of God.’
‘Christ’s anointing was not by human hands, nor was it with ordinary oil. On the contrary, having destined him to be the Savior of the world, the Father himself anointed him with the Holy Spirit: Jesus of Nazareth. The words of Peter bear witness to this: Your throne, O God, shall endure for ever; your royal scepter is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above all your fellows…the Holy Spirit the source of spiritual joy. But we too have been anointed with oil, and by this anointing we have entered into fellowship with Christ and have received a share in his life…beware of thinking this is simple ordinary oil and nothing else. After the invocation of the Spirit it is no longer ordinary oil but the gift of Christ, and by the presence of his divinity it becomes the instrument through which we receive the Holy Spirit. While symbolically, on our foreheads and senses, our bodies are anointed with this oil that we see, our souls are sanctified by the holy And life giving Spirit.’
The Holy Trinity is the author of life. He does not come to enslave us, to use the sword to kill us.
- Status