Questions for Evolution-Deniers

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The needle on my Baloney Detector is back in the danger zone. This goes back to the totally unproven statement made some decades ago by scientists who said that if a planet had water and “the building blocks of life,” poof, life.

Peace,
Ed
They’re not trying to prove that if you mix a bunch of random elements into a warm glass of water, shake or stir, that a worm jumps out… or maybe not to that absurd degree… maybe an amoeba is what you wanna see? Is that the proof you want them to show is that it works like Chocolate Quick? Because that’s not what this is about.
 
First of all, Abu, I notice you don’t actually bother to respond to the OP.

Second of all, I’m reminded of a quote of Bertrand Russell: “Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so.”
Genetic similarity between apes (particularly, chimpanzees) and humans—in itself—is compatible with either common descent or common design.
Well it depends on the kind of genetic similarity.
The fusion evidence merely tells us that our ancestors—whether essentially human or otherwise —once had forty-eight chromosomes. It does not tell us whether our ancestors were related to modern apes.
I agree. The fusion evidence does not provide evidence for common descent (which should be clear to one who understands inductive reasoning and Bayes’ theorem), but there’s much more than that in the genome. The right question to ask is the likelihood of what we see in the genome when the hypothesis of common descent is compared with that of common design. So, while the chromosomal fusion is an unlikely event (to occur and to get fixed in the genome), it’s no more unlikely if humans were created with 48 chromosomes than if they were descended from chimps.

But I notice you didn’t even bother to attempt to refute the evidence of endogenous retroviral insertions at the same point in the genome or of the GULO pseudogene. These are the strongest evidences for common ancestry in the genome. The likelihood is much, much greater under common descent than under common design. The same mutation (or insertion in the case of the ERV at the same point in the genome) must occur and then get fixed in the population under common design, whereas under common descent the likelihood is close to 1, if the ERV insertion or mutation was near fixation in the ancestral population.
Francis Collins himself admits that shared functional similarities between two organisms does little to assist in discriminating between common ancestry and common design with separate ancestry. Thus, the evidence for chromosomal fusion in humans provides no special evidence for common ancestry between humans and apes.
The chromosomal fusion is not a shared functional similarity, it’s a difference.

But anyway, the key is comparing likelihoods under common descent vs. common design. Francis Collins doesn’t seem to understand this.
In the past, Darwinists loudly proclaimed that much of our DNA contained repetitive elements that are meaningless. Darwinists have claimed this major portion of DNA is selfish or parasitic DNA that invades and becomes inserted into our genomes: only eight years ago, Richard Dawkins specifically targeted repetitive DNA as undesigned “junk,” writing that “creationists might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with . . .junk tandem repeat DNA. But geneticists are constantly disproving the assumption that non-coding DNA is “junk.”
[See <i>Intelligent Design 101</i>: A Reply to Francis Collinss Darwinian Arguments for Common Ancestry of Apes and Humans]
Well this is exaggerated just a bit here. AREs might not be as strong evidence as ERVs and pseudogenes but still. Why would a creator choose “tandem repeats” for that function if any sequence would do vs. it being an evolutionary “artifact” of “parasitic DNA” that becomes inserted into our genomes with that precise sequence, because the sequence the parasite has. It’s not as much of a slam dunk as ERVs but still it does provide some support.
“An argument against random mutations in the Darwinian theory is that, for a new species to survive, both a male and a female of the species would have to appear at approximately the same time and place.
Nope. Species aren’t rigid typological categories in “Darwinism”. It’s assumed that if a male of a new species arose it wouldn’t be able to breed with the other females around. That assumption is incorrect. This might be an argument against saltationism.
 
**Unravelling chance by design **

“By 2004, base sequences for more than a hundred genomes had been determined, and “these complete genome sequences have revealed several complexities that Darwinian evolutionary theory did not anticipate.” Four of these unanticipated complexities are the following: a)transfer genes; b)bacterial species evolving also by deletion of genetic material; c)the finding that some portions of the genome that do not code for proteins are not, nevertheless, “junk DNA;” d)the finding that “the expression of genes is controlled by regulatory circuits that are as complicated and as precisely arranged as the most sophisticated engineering diagrams” (Hirsch, pp. 2-3).

“Collins (theistic evolutionist) “admits also that most of the mutations that take place naturally in essential or vulnerable parts of the genome are harmful and are rapidly culled out of the population, because they reduce reproductive fitness, so that only on rare occasions will a mutation take place by chance that offers a slight amount of selective advantage, but over a very long period of time these favorable changes can result in major changes in biological function (p. 131). Is this reasoning up-to-date? Collins offers no statistical study of the probability of the mechanism that he is describing, **while Meyer points to statistical studies that show that to synthesize even one new kind of protein by the method proposed by Collins would take longer than the duration of the entire universe. **And this is just for one new protein. But the basic discussion here has to do with macroevolution, with changes ending up in new living species, possessing thousands or millions of new and different codes and characteristics in and around the genomes. Collins sees the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution to be rather arbitrary, inasmuch as “larger changes that result in new species are a result of a succession of smaller incremental steps” (p. 132). Is this just wishful thinking?”
[LT124 - Francis S. Collins and The Language of God - Part I: Random Change Versus Intelligent Design]](LT124 - Francis S. Collins and The Language of God - Part I: Random Change Versus Intelligent Design])

“32. Collins tells us that Darwin had no way of knowing what the mechanism of evolution by natural selection might be, but “we can now see that the variation he postulated is supported by naturally occurring mutations in DNA” (p. 131). This is an interesting admission, because it tells us that, for nearly a hundred years before the discovery of DNA, evolutionists were letting the public believe that they had a mechanism of evolution, when, in fact, they did not. Collins does not present any statistics of probability for the success of his mechanism, **but we have seen in Part I of this essay that the probability of new species, of new organs, or even of new molecular functions arising by a process of random change is so small as to render it prohibitive **(nos. 9ff. above). Evolutionary scientists are constantly trying to show that the theory of evolution can be used to predict events in the rise of living species, but some recent discoveries on the level of DNA have gone contrary to what Darwinian theory predicts (nos. 20-25 above). [My underlining and emphasis].
[LT125 - Francis S. Collins and The Language of God - Part II: Genesis 1-3 and the Origin of Man]](LT125 - Francis S. Collins and The Language of God - Part II: Genesis 1-3 and the Origin of Man])

All part of the deception which characterises the evolutionist quagmire.
 
Wouldn’t that be a failure of predictability? as in observable, testable and predictable
Randomness imposes some restraints on predictability. We cannot predict what number will show next when we roll a truly random die. We can predict reasonably accurately what numbers we will see if we roll that die 60,000 times. With randomness our predictions move towards the statistical.

rossum
 
When I asked this questions years ago, the general consensus was that the word “evolution” necessarily refers to “unguided (‘random’) events” and thus necessarily excludes any God concept.

At that point, I had to declare that the definition itself is an oxymoron. But the definition gradually changed over the years and now seems to represent merely a “tread of events that leads toward more complex development”. It reminds me of the Second Law of Thermodynamics in that the law keeps getting rewritten so as to save face for its proponents.

As stated in this OP, evolution is inherently being defined as merely “Evolution == things get developed from lesser to greater”.

I have to question whether human kind is improving or getting worse actually. Perhaps it is merely becoming more homogeneous, less than its prior best but greater than its prior worst. Societies (Man) appear to show the same effect.

Some things change upward. Some things change downward. Change is required (although not in all things).

Evolution is merely a focus on ONE aspect of all that is going on. With that in mind, when the definition actually makes sense, it is an unavoidable fact, Science or no Science, Scripture or no Scripture.

Is evolution the ONLY thing that causes development (is Evolution God)? Of course not (until they redefine it again to include ALL potential influences).
dementia,disease,death, dust cannot be evolution,nor can dust to dust - twinc
 
survival of the prettiest - Can evolution explain the origin of beauty.Things do not need to be beautiful to survive.The crow and the sparrow are just as numerous if not more so than peacocks and birds of paradise - twinc
 
survival of the prettiest - Can evolution explain the origin of beauty.Things do not need to be beautiful to survive.The crow and the sparrow are just as numerous if not more so than peacocks and birds of paradise - twinc
Study Sexual Selection - the official name for “survival of the prettiest”.

rossum
 
survival of the prettiest - Can evolution explain the origin of beauty.Things do not need to be beautiful to survive.The crow and the sparrow are just as numerous if not more so than peacocks and birds of paradise - twinc
You should really read up on the subject to avoid putting forward such ridiculous arguments against it.
 
They’re not trying to prove that if you mix a bunch of random elements into a warm glass of water, shake or stir, that a worm jumps out… or maybe not to that absurd degree… maybe an amoeba is what you wanna see? Is that the proof you want them to show is that it works like Chocolate Quick? Because that’s not what this is about.
That is precisely what this is about. When a scientist appears on TV and says: “If we find planets with liquid water and the building blocks of life (amino acids) then we should expect to find life there.”

The scientist usually leaves out the part describing how the building blocks of life go from amino acids to life. He is creating a mental image in the listeners’s mind that goes like this: Amino Acids > --------------- > some undefined series of events > -------------- > Life. It’s just that vague and it’s just that unproven.

And there are a few posters here arguing for precisely that: you’re just a bunch of chemicals that somehow turned into life. The somehow part is unknown and unexplained because they can’t do it in the lab. But we’re asked to just believe it happened.

Peace,
Ed
 
**The unanswerable reality **

The mind or intellect produces ideas such as being, goodness, truth, beauty, virtue, honour, ambition, justice, wisdom. Can any organ lay hold of such as these? Can you smell or see ideas? Can you imagine what ambition would look like, and draw a picture of it? These are individual limitations or settings which are beyond the grasp of any bodily sense organ. They require a spiritual power to comprehend them. This power is present in a spiritual substance which we call the soul.

When this is not thought through, the need for a spiritual source for a spiritual entity – the soul – is not perceived. The source or creator of the soul we call God – the source and creator of all intelligent design in the universe which is full of irreducible complexity.

There are worthwhile books which enable the newcomer to get acquainted with this concept of reality.

[Cf. *Six days of Creation, Br THokas Mary Sennott p 342-8; Apologetics And Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph]
 
The scientist usually leaves out the part describing how the building blocks of life go from amino acids to life. He is creating a mental image in the listeners’s mind that goes like this: Amino Acids > --------------- > some undefined series of events > -------------- > Life. It’s just that vague and it’s just that unproven.
Well, yes, for a TV show. They don’t really have time to explain things it took them years of study to understand, so I see it as more of a way to capture attention and spark interest by giving a brief run-down.
And there are a few posters here arguing for precisely that: you’re just a bunch of chemicals that somehow turned into life. The somehow part is unknown and unexplained because they can’t do it in the lab. But we’re asked to just believe it happened.
I don’t have a problem with believing that it’s possible (or suspending my disbelief that it’s not) that scientists are right to the extent that life just “seemingly happened” in they way they want to try to explain and describe, if given the perfect conditions for it to happen, because, to me, figuring out how things work is part of the fun of living.

From a point of view that people use it that way, as if to use science to prove God doesn’t exist… that people are “just a bunch of chemicals” and that’s it, I agree that’s baloney, I just don’t think throwing the idea’s out as if that’s what those idea’s are for, even if some would use them that way, is helpful. Science is about exploring the wonders of Creation.
 
Well, yes, for a TV show. They don’t really have time to explain things it took them years of study to understand, so I see it as more of a way to capture attention and spark interest by giving a brief run-down.

I don’t have a problem with believing that it’s possible (or suspending my disbelief that it’s not) that scientists are right to the extent that life just “seemingly happened” in they way they want to try to explain and describe, if given the perfect conditions for it to happen, because, to me, figuring out how things work is part of the fun of living.

From a point of view that people use it that way, as if to use science to prove God doesn’t exist… that people are “just a bunch of chemicals” and that’s it, I agree that’s baloney, I just don’t think throwing the idea’s out as if that’s what those idea’s are for, even if some would use them that way, is helpful. Science is about exploring the wonders of Creation.
I’d say science is about deducing what you can from material evidence, personally.

Love the title of this thread, by the way - “evolution deniers” as in “holocaust deniers” doubting the (un)holy word of revered Darwin - AS BAD AS DENYING NAZI GENOCIDE!!! :mad:

I’ve argued the Intelligent-design-as-only-reasonable-explanation-statistically before. Last time I looked, the redefinition of chance that is “natural selection” collapsed then, so it’s thrilling (in a joy-in-repetition way) to see it resurface again here… about 2 weeks later

I can deny evolution wholesale, if you want (I’ll bet Eds up for it as well!). As I’ve said before, there’s not enough evidence for very much at all, regarding the dim and distant past, so I’m fairly agnostic regarding what the technicalities of the processes occurring actually were, especially scientifically. I think you have to be, without applying a hefty wad of Dogma, and I’ve found it pretty obvious that the fierce adorers of (especially fundamentalist) Darwinistic evolution apply theirs even more fanatically than any young Earth Creationist. In cultures increasingly bogged down in modernist scientism, it’s an easier doctrine to put your faith in :rolleyes:
 
“I’ve argued the Intelligent-design-as-only-reasonable-explanation-statistically before. Last time I looked, the redefinition of chance that is “natural selection” collapsed then, so it’s thrilling (in a joy-in-repetition way) to see it resurface again here”

Based on what statistics?
 
Well, yes, for a TV show. They don’t really have time to explain things it took them years of study to understand, so I see it as more of a way to capture attention and spark interest by giving a brief run-down.

I don’t have a problem with believing that it’s possible (or suspending my disbelief that it’s not) that scientists are right to the extent that life just “seemingly happened” in they way they want to try to explain and describe, if given the perfect conditions for it to happen, because, to me, figuring out how things work is part of the fun of living.

From a point of view that people use it that way, as if to use science to prove God doesn’t exist… that people are “just a bunch of chemicals” and that’s it, I agree that’s baloney, I just don’t think throwing the idea’s out as if that’s what those idea’s are for, even if some would use them that way, is helpful. Science is about exploring the wonders of Creation.
They have plenty of time to explain things, but my point is, they have nothing. When the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science publishes something that tells the world that nothing conscious made us, they are committing two errors: one, they cannot demonstrate that is true, and two, they are misinforming and misleading the public by providing blatantly nonfactual information.

Science could care less about Creation. Right now, science only wants to promote the soup to you theory which they cannot demonstrate is true.

Peace,
Ed
 
They have plenty of time to explain things, but my point is, they have nothing. When the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science publishes something that tells the world that nothing conscious made us, they are committing two errors: one, they cannot demonstrate that is true, and two, they are misinforming and misleading the public by providing blatantly nonfactual information.

Science could care less about Creation. Right now, science only wants to promote the soup to you theory which they cannot demonstrate is true.

Peace,
Ed
Everything came from nothing don’t ya know.

To the evo’s - first life - front loaded or not?
 
Do you deny that the origin of all species, including human ones, could have arisen by common descent with either directed, as opposed to “chance” mutation? “Directed” mutation could mean either:

a) a direct manipulation of the genome by God or some other entity with the power to do so (“guided” evolution); or
b) the initial conditions (immediately after the Big Bang for instance) being such that what would otherwise be considered “highly unlikely” being, in fact, highly probable given the initial conditions, whether these initial conditions were willed by God or not. (This position is sometimes called “Front-loaded” evolution.)

Personally, I don’t hold to evolution by “random chance” mutation since I hold the expression as meaningless; “random chance” simply means an expression of our ignorance. If I bet $100 at a blackjack table and draw a blackjack, sure I might say I was “lucky” and that “chance” favored me, but all this really means is that I was ignorant of the arrangement of the cards in the deck being dealt to me.

Now there’s nothing logically impossible about a) or b). If you have an argument, I’d love to hear it. But, if either a) or b) are possible, then all the supposed “difficulties” with evolution completely vanish, such as the Cambrian explosion, or the appearance of fully-formed limbs in the fossil record, etc. You’re only arguing about the philosophical implications of the theory, not the theory itself. Now you may wish to argue that evolution doesn’t imply atheism; and, indeed, it doesn’t. But you don’t need all the fancy, but ultimately silly, “arguments” against evolution to show that.
Only if one makes God a liar; he created the heavens and the earth and all they contain in six literal days. He did not change diapers or nurse Adam and Eve, He built “time” into all He created.

Christians recognize evolution depending on the type and how it is defined.

***In scientific terms, evolution generally means the change in genetic material between generations, which is also referred to as “descent with modification.” These changes are attributed to mutations, gene flow and drift, and natural selection, which are examples of observational science and can be shown to occur. However, the other aspect of evolution is the belief that all animals descended from one original ancestor. Evolutionists sometimes claim this “fact” is established in the fossil record, homology (similar structures), and genetic evidence. However, any evidence involving historical science (one-time events that cannot be retested) is subject to interpretational bias on the part of the scientist.

Mutations and genetic drift are often cited as the source of heritable traits from one generation to the next. While mutations do cause changes in the genome and genetic drift changes the frequency of those traits, neither process is capable of changing one kind of animal into another. More often, mutations have either no noticeable impact or cause degeneration. source*** - Answers in Genesis
 
*** neither process is capable of changing one kind of animal into another. More often, mutations have either no noticeable impact or cause degeneration. source*** - Answers in Genesis
And we know know with recent discoveries that DNA fights to prevent changes. So now evo has a blocker in its path.
 
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