Questions for Evolution-Deniers

[rossum]

What makes you think you will be separated from your loved ones. They may be in hell and “there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither” but perhaps you can still see them or know them though they suffer. I would not say there is suffering in heaven.

So you see someone you love suffering in hell. How could you not feel sad if you really love them? This is a very weak argument. Even you say “perhaps”. Are you really prepared to bet eternal happiness on a “perhaps”?

Remember everyone must suffer in life - there is nothing unusual in suffering.

We will make a Buddhist of you yet.

Suffering is ubiquitous, it is one of the Three Marks: Impermanence, Suffering and Soullessness.“Impermanent are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“Sorrowful are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

Dhammapada 20:5-7

rossum

 

[Techno2000]

So you see someone you love suffering in hell. How could you not feel sad if you really love them? This is a very weak argument. Even you say “perhaps”. Are you really prepared to bet eternal happiness on a “perhaps”?

We will make a Buddhist of you yet.

Suffering is ubiquitous, it is one of the Three Marks: Impermanence, Suffering and Soullessness.“Impermanent are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“Sorrowful are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

Dhammapada 20:5-7

rossum

Buddhism is so Bleak what is there to look forward to… Death? In Christianity we look forward to eternal Happiness, Buddhism has Nothing to offer, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Thing]

So you see someone you love suffering in hell. How could you not feel sad if you really love them? This is a very weak argument. Even you say “perhaps”. Are you really prepared to bet eternal happiness on a “perhaps”?

We will make a Buddhist of you yet.

Suffering is ubiquitous, it is one of the Three Marks: Impermanence, Suffering and Soullessness.“Impermanent are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“Sorrowful are all compound things.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

Dhammapada 20:5-7

rossum

I doubt you’ll make a Buddhist out of me, for one thing I don’t understand it for another I’m not certain whoever wrote that stuff understood it and thirdly I never realized how miserable Buddhism is.

Christianity, or at least Catholicism has plenty of suffering but it is a wash your face cheerful sort of suffering , it is’nt self absorbed or depressive suffering, its a put to use sort of suffering, like I could suffer for you rossum and what do you know but it would actually help you.

So you see someone you love suffering in hell. How could you not feel sad if you really love them? This is a very weak argument.

You might see me suffering for you, rossum, and while it is a shame that suffering has become part of life there is really no reason to feel sad. But if you take to walking around me with a long face you do me no good and you might be better off accepting suffering as a part of everybodys life and just do your best to get on with it cheerfully.
We are taught to love our enemies, the enemies of goodness are in hell, we may have known them in life but they must have chosen to hate goodness and kindness. We love our enemies but they will not love us in return, they desire hell. I imagine they are hardly anymore like the people you may have loved at some very early stage of life.
Perhaps its like the scenario of a mother of a sadistic serial killing rapist watching the son she once loved being pressed into the police wagon headed for many lifetimes in prison.
Does that mother love him does she think he should be separated forever from her, is she thinking of justice. How does perfect justice make one sad.

 

[rossum]

Buddhism is so Bleak what is there to look forward to… Death? In Christianity we look forward to eternal Happiness, Buddhism has Nothing to offer, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

I suggest that you learn more about Buddhism before posting:There is, monks, an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, an unconditioned. If, monks, there were no unborn, not-become, not-made, unconditioned, no escape would be seen from what is born, become, made, conditioned. But since there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, an unconditioned, therefore an escape is seen from what is born, become, made, conditioned.

Udana 8.3
An escape is possible. The Buddha has shown us the path to that escape. All that remains is for us to follow that path. Where is your hopelessness?

rossum

 

[ricmat]

An escape is possible. The Buddha has shown us the path to that escape. All that remains is for us to follow that path.

So Buddhism offers an escape from “something.” But before escaping and then declaring victory, doesn’t it make sense to find out what that “something” is? Who created it? Why is it here? What is it’s purpose? What is our purpose?

 

[rossum]

We are taught to love our enemies

As are Buddhists.

the enemies of goodness are in hell,

So? They are our enemies and we must still love them. Jesus pointed out that everybody loves their friends - that is not difficult. The difficult part is to love your enemies as well. That obligation persists for all time. You have to love the people in hell as well as the people in heaven.

we may have known them in life but they must have chosen to hate goodness and kindness.

Their hate does not justify your ceasing to love them. You must return hate with love. Following Jesus is not an easy path.

We love our enemies but they will not love us in return, they desire hell.

I disagree, they desire short term pleasure rather than long term pleasure. That is their mistake, but it does not free us of the duty to love them any more than their failure to love us frees us of the duty to love them. It is easy to love people who love you back; the difficult part is to love people who hate you back. Jesus did not preach an easy path.

I imagine they are hardly anymore like the people you may have loved at some very early stage of life.

People change. That does not mean that we no longer have to love them; they are still people.

Does that mother love him does she think he should be separated forever from her, is she thinking of justice. How does perfect justice make one sad.

How can suffering not make you sad for someone you love. Even if that suffering is self-inflicted it is still suffering for someone you love. “Love your neighbour as yourself” is an extremely difficult path to follow.

rossum

 

[rossum]

So Buddhism offers an escape from “something.” But before escaping and then declaring victory, doesn’t it make sense to find out what that “something” is?

Buddhism offers escape from suffering. A path to avoid birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair.

Who created it?

We all create our own suffering by following an incorrect approach to the world:[The Buddha said:] “And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion and delight, relishing now here and now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.”

— Samyutta Nikaya 56.11

Why is it here?

Because we caused it.

What is it’s purpose?

It has no purpose, it is an effect of our unwise actions in following incorrect paths.

What is our purpose?

To do good, to cease to do evil, to concentrate our minds.

rossum

 

[Techno2000]

I suggest that you learn more about Buddhism before posting:There is, monks, an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, an unconditioned. If, monks, there were no unborn, not-become, not-made, unconditioned, no escape would be seen from what is born, become, made, conditioned. But since there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, an unconditioned, therefore an escape is seen from what is born, become, made, conditioned.

Udana 8.3
An escape is possible. The Buddha has shown us the path to that escape. All that remains is for us to follow that path. Where is your hopelessness?

rossum

Sorry rossum but to me Buddhism just seems like a vague, convoluted,gobbledygook of ideas masquerading as a religion.Its the perfect thing for people who don’t want to be bothered by the ideas of Sin and Hell.

 

[ricmat]

So Buddhism offers an escape from “something.” But before escaping and then declaring victory, doesn’t it make sense to find out what that “something” is? Who created it? Why is it here? What is it’s purpose? What is our purpose?

Buddhism offers escape from suffering. A path to avoid birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair.

We all create our own suffering by following an incorrect approach to the world:[The Buddha said:] “And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion and delight, relishing now here and now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.”

— Samyutta Nikaya 56.11Because we caused it.

It has no purpose, it is an effect of our unwise actions in following incorrect paths.

To do good, to cease to do evil, to concentrate our minds.

rossum

Sorry, I see my post was not clear. I was trying to be too concise I guess.

Let me try it again.

So Buddhism offers an escape from “something” (this life, in this universe). But before escaping to Nirvana and then declaring victory, doesn’t it make sense to find out what that “something” is? Who created it (this universe)? Why is it here? What is it’s purpose? What is our purpose? Why are we here?

It seems to me that Buddhism is missing the big picture. Sort of like “Ouch, that hurts. The solution is to move to the left.” Yes, that might be the solution to that particular problem. But what is it that caused the ouch? Who did it? Why did they do it? Does the ouch have any other purpose? Is our purpose here in this universe merely to escape from it? What if the creator of the ouch had something else in mind?

 

[rossum]

Sorry rossum but to me Buddhism just seems like a vague, convoluted,gobbledygook of ideas masquerading as a religion.Its the perfect thing for people who don’t want to be bothered by the ideas of Sin and Hell.

As I said, you would do well to learn more about Buddhism first before posting on the subject. Even a brief study of Buddhism would have shown you that Buddhists have the concept of hells. It is one of the six possible places of rebirth after death: heavens, asura-realm, human, animal, preta-realm and hells.

There is no concept of sin, but neither is there the concept of forgiveness of sin; there are no “Get Out of Hell Free” cards in Buddhism. The closest to sin is “unwise action” which will always cause suffering:Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean,
nor in a cave in the mountains,
is there a place where a man
can escape his evil deed.

Dhammapada 9:12

rossum

 

[rossum]

So Buddhism offers an escape from “something” (this life, in this universe).

Buddhism offers an escape from suffering. The Four Noble Truths describe suffering, its origination, its cessation and the path to that cessation.

But before escaping to Nirvana and then declaring victory, doesn’t it make sense to find out what that “something” is?

Suffering.

Who created it (this universe)?

We did, by our actions.

Why is it here?

Because we made it.

What is it’s purpose?

It is an effect, it has no purpose.

What is our purpose?

To follow the path to the end of suffering.

Why are we here?

Because we failed to attain enlightenment in our previous life, or in a few cases because we are enlightened Bodhisattvas who have postponed our own entry into nirvana in order to stay around and help other living beings attain nirvana for themselves.

It seems to me that Buddhism is missing the big picture. Sort of like “Ouch, that hurts. The solution is to move to the left.” Yes, that might be the solution to that particular problem. But what is it that caused the ouch? Who did it? Why did they do it? Does the ouch have any other purpose? Is our purpose here in this universe merely to escape from it? What if the creator of the ouch had something else in mind?

Reading the Bible there is a great deal of history in it. Much of Christianity seems to me to deal with God working out His purpose in history. Reading Buddhist scriptures there is almost no history, and what little there is does not have any real relevance to the Buddhist path. Knowing where we are now, where we need to be and the route between the two is enough. All the rest is a distraction. The house is burning down and our purpose is to get out of the house as quickly as possible. Enquiries into the cause of the fire can wait until after we have escaped:[The Buddha said:]'It is as if, Malunkyaputta, a man is shot with an arrow thickly smeared with poison, … and the wounded man were to say “I will not have the arrow taken out until I know the caste of the man who shot it, … his tribe … his clan … his village … his height etc.” [many questions omitted here] That man would die Malunkyaputta, before he learned all that he wanted to know.

'In exactly the same way, Malunkyaputta, any one who says “I will not lead the religious life under the Blessed One until the Blessed One explains to me whether the universe is eternal, whether the universe is not eternal, whether the universe is finite, whether the universe is infinite etc.” [many questions omitted here] That person would die Malunkyaputta, before I had ever explained all this to that person.

‘The religious life, Malunkyaputta, does not depend on the dogma that the universe is eternal, nor does it depend on the dogma that the universe is not eternal etc. [many dogmas omitted here] Whatever dogma obtains there is still birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair, of which I declare the extinction in the present life.’

• Cula-Malunkyovada sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 63
  Buddhism is not an Abrahamic religion and it has its own set of priorities which do not coincide with the priorities of the Abrahamic religions. The Bible starts with a description of creation. Buddhism dismisses the question of the origin of the universe as irrelevant.

rossum

 

[ricmat]

Buddhism offers an escape from suffering.

snip…

Buddhism dismisses the question of the origin of the universe as irrelevant.

rossum

I guess that was my point. The universe is here. It got here somehow. We are here. It seems to be a “cop out” to say that who, how, why are irrelevant. And it seems to me that those are important questions that would have some bearing on what we do with our lives.

But thanks for your response.

 

[Thing]

Buddhism offers an escape from suffering.

Suffering.

rossum

How can you escape from suffering if you know those you love are in hell. Is that not going to make sad?

 

[Techno2000]

It is one of the six possible places of rebirth after death: heavens, asura-realm, human, animal, preta-realm and hells.

[/indent]

rossum

Douay-Rheims Bible

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Hebrews

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

 

[StAnastasia]

Part of the definition of suffering goes “separation from the loved is suffering”. Since both Christians and Buddhists are enjoined to “love your neighbour as yourself” and “love others as you love yourself” respectively then all of us should love all other human beings. Since in the Christian heaven I will be separated from those other human beings in hell, whom I love as myself then I will be sad and cry tears in heaven. You can only be happy in heaven if you do not love your neighbours in hell.rossum

rossum, the problem of the inconsistency of eternal happiness of some while others suffer eternal punishment has been explained in various ways. One Protestant theologian argued to me that God causes mothers in heaven to forget that they had given birth to a baby who ended up condemned to hell for eternity. That way she would be spared the eternal suffering of thinking about her child now lost in the flames of hell.

Another solution would be to argue that even hell is temporary, and that eventually all will be “saved” (including perhaps the devil herself). The saints could rest secure in the knowledge that they would one day be reunited with their hell-bound relatives, now purged of their sins.

Regarding suffering in heaven, some argue that the language of “heavenly banquet” is merely symbolic, because an eternity of the saints eating plants and animals entails an eternity of suffering on their part.

Suffering is an interesting problem that both Christianity and Buddhism have attempted in their respective ways to address.

StAnastasia

 

[Abu]

The meaning and value of suffering

On suffering, Catholics know from Christ’s Church that this suffering was brought on mankind by Original Sin, and that the redemptive suffering of Jesus of Nazareth – the only one who claimed to be God and proved it by His resurrection – has enabled us to be co-redeemers with Him, as Paul has explained in Col. 1:24.

Jesus came to be the Way the Truth and the Life. He redeemed mankind and opened heaven for the fallen human race. To get there we have to be co-redeemers. Our participation in Christ’s one sacrifice (as the Holy Mass), given to us by Him, raises us to assist in our and others’ salvation as co-redeemers in a special way. Jesus redeemed mankind, but each of us needs to cooperate to be saved. It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, and follow His Way through His Church. [See Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7]

Of course those in heaven will not be sad at knowing that anyone they knew was in hell, because they will have the beatific vision and fully know God’s mercy and His justice which rightly consigned to hell those who deserved it .

 

[rossum]

I guess that was my point. The universe is here. It got here somehow. We are here. It seems to be a “cop out” to say that who, how, why are irrelevant.

We do not know who Seth’s wife was, yet she was one of Jesus’ ancestors. Does the entire structure of Christianity fail because we cannot completely enumerate all of Jesus’ ancestors back to Adam? Only knowing the male part of His ancestry means that we have a very incomplete picture. It is the same with the universe; we know it exists but the precise details are not important just as the name of Seth’s wife is not important.

And it seems to me that those are important questions that would have some bearing on what we do with our lives.

In this matter I trust the Buddha more than you. The Buddha told us that this question was not important and irrelevant to the task of attaining enlightenment. As I said, the Abrahamic religions have a much greater focus on history that Buddhism. Our task is to extract the poisoned arrow. The details of the man who shot it can wait until after the arrow has been removed from the wound.

rossum

 

[rossum]

How can you escape from suffering if you know those you love are in hell. Is that not going to make sad?

All Buddhist hells are temporary and eventually all living beings, including Mara (the Lord of Hell), will attain enlightenment.

There is no escape from suffering outside nirvana.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Douay-Rheims Bible

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Hebrews

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

What died at the end of my last life was not me. What dies at the end of my current life will be different from what I am now. What will die at the end of my next life will be different again. Every instant of my life an old me dies and a new, different, me is born. We are continually changing and being reborn throughout our lives.

Of course we can only die once because each individual ‘me’ is only present for an instant. There is not enough time to die twice.

Change is ubiquitous. You can never step in the same river twice because it is not the same river and it is not the same you. You cannot die twice because the you that died is in the past and there is a new you ready to die the next time.

The Bible is right in this, but not in the way I expect that you interpret it.

rossum

 

[rossum]

rossum, the problem of the inconsistency of eternal happiness of some while others suffer eternal punishment has been explained in various ways. One Protestant theologian argued to me that God causes mothers in heaven to forget that they had given birth to a baby who ended up condemned to hell for eternity. That way she would be spared the eternal suffering of thinking about her child now lost in the flames of hell.

That does not sound good to me at all.

Another solution would be to argue that even hell is temporary, and that eventually all will be “saved” (including perhaps the devil herself). The saints could rest secure in the knowledge that they would one day be reunited with their hell-bound relatives, now purged of their sins.

That is the Buddhist solution. All heavens and hells are temporary. Some suffering is inevitable until enlightenment and all living beings will attain enlightenment.

Regarding suffering in heaven, some argue that the language of “heavenly banquet” is merely symbolic, because an eternity of the saints eating plants and animals entails an eternity of suffering on their part.

Vegetarian banquets or else the Dish of the Day at Restaurant at the End of the Universe?

Suffering is an interesting problem that both Christianity and Buddhism have attempted in their respective ways to address.

It is the primary problem in Buddhism. The Four Noble Truths cover suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path to that cessation. All the rest is built round that foundation.

rossum