Questions for Greek pagans:

[donna369]

i don’t understand how you can be Roman Catholic and a pagan or follower/believer in ancient greek gods. that just doesn’t make sense to me. thats why i asked what rc meant. could you please explain this. i feel lost.

 

[Kallisto]

Also, I heard this rumor…Is it true that Greek Pagans believe Jesus went up to Mount Olympus and slayed the entire Council of gods…?

This comes of as offensive and trollish. What makes this sound remotely plausible to you?

Also, where does Zeus stand on poverty, famine, etc…?

I’m not sure what kind of question this is or what you seek to imply. Especially in light of the above comment. Poverty, famine etc. are ills, a general response is “see below”.

Negative life forces. Spirits/energy forces that seek to wreak havoc upon people.

Conveniently, Sallustius’ “On Gods and the World” was just referenced and this would be a good time to quote from it:

XII. THE ORIGIN OF EVIL THINGS; AND THAT THERE IS NO POSITIVE EVIL.

The Gods being good and making all things, how do evils exist in the world? Or perhaps it is better first to state the fact that, the Gods being good and making all things, there is no positive evil, it only comes by absence of good; just as darkness itself does not exist, but only comes about by absence of light.

If evil exists it must exist either in Gods or minds or souls or bodies. It does not exist in any God, for all God is good. If anyone speaks of a ‘bad mind’ he means a mind without mind. If of a bad soul, he will make the soul inferior to body, for no body in itself is evil. If he says that evil is made up of soul and body together, it is absurd that separately they should not be evil, but joined should create evil.
Suppose it is said that there are evil spirits: - if they have their power from the Gods, they cannot be evil; if from elsewhere, the Gods do not make all things. If they do not make all things, then either they wish to or cannot, or they can and do not wish; neither of which is consistent with the idea of God. We may see, therefore, from these arguments, that there is no positive evil in the world.

It is in the activities of men that the evils appear, and that not of all men nor always. And as to these, if men sinned for the sake of evil, nature itself would be evil. But if the adulterer thinks his adultery bad but his pleasure good, and the murderer thinks the murder bad but the money he gets by it good, and the man who does evil to an enemy thinks that to do evil is bad but to punish his enemy good, and if the soul commits all its sins in that way, then the evils are done for the sake of goodness. (In the same way, because in a given place light does not exist, there comes darkness, which has no positive existence.) The soul sins therefore because, while aiming at good, it makes mistakes about the good, because it is not primary essence. And we see many things done by the Gods to prevent it from making mistakes and to heal it when it has made them. Arts and sciences, curses and prayers, sacrifices and initiations, laws and constitutions, judgments and punishments, all came into existence for the sake of preventing souls from sinning; and when they are gone forth from the body, Gods and spirits of purification cleanse them of their sins.

*“It is in the activities of men that the evils appear, and that not of all men nor always.” *This is summed up in the story of Pandora, the first woman made by the gods who unleashed misery on humanity, the similarities echoed in the story of Adam and Eve:

“For ere this [the opening of Pandora’s jar] the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills (kakoi) and hard toil (ponoi) and heavy sickness (nosoi argaleai) which bring the Keres (death-demons) upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the woman [Pandora] took off the great lid of the jar with her hands and scattered all these [presumably the Daimon-offspring of Eris] and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only Elpis (Hope) remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aegis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues (muria lugra), wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils (kakoi) and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases (nosoi) come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus.” - Hesiod, Works and Days

 

[KingJohn]

This comes of as offensive and trollish. What makes this sound remotely plausible to you?

I’m not sure what kind of question this is or what you seek to imply. Especially in light of the above comment. Poverty, famine etc. are ills, a general response is “see below”.

Conveniently, Sallustius’ “On Gods and the World” was just referenced and this would be a good time to quote from it:
*“It is in the activities of men that the evils appear, and that not of all men nor always.” **This is summed up in the story of Pandora, the first woman made by the gods who unleashed misery on humanity, the similarities echoed in the story of Adam and Eve:

I apologize if my first comment is offensive. I did not mean it like that. I was simply asking a question, in fact, a Greek pagan told me that they believed that himself… I just wanted to know if others shared that view.

So, apologies if that comes off as offensive.

 

[Fairwinds]

… in fact, a Greek pagan told me that they believed that himself… …

he must have been pulling your leg. No True Greek pagan would say that.

 

[Nine_Two]

This comes of as offensive and trollish. What makes this sound remotely plausible to you?

In fairness, the Greek religion is full of gods killing other gods.

Conveniently, Sallustius’ “On Gods and the World” was just referenced and this would be a good time to quote from it:

*“It is in the activities of men that the evils appear, and that not of all men nor always.” **This is summed up in the story of Pandora, the first woman made by the gods who unleashed misery on humanity, the similarities echoed in the story of Adam and Eve:

But Was not Pandora and her Jar a “gift” from the gods (her name meaning “gift of all”), after all", yet at the same time she is known as kalon kakon, the beautiful evil.

According to Hesiod, it was through her that the gods unleashed evil upon mankind as a(n additional) punishment to Prometheus.

How does the Theogony square with the idea that the gods neither created evil, nor have any in them?

 

[Skadi]

In fairness, the Greek religion is full of gods killing other gods.

oh it isnt just the Greeks. That happens in just about every polytheist religion.

 

[Kallisto]

I apologize if my first comment is offensive. I did not mean it like that. I was simply asking a question, in fact, a Greek pagan told me that they believed that himself… I just wanted to know if others shared that view.

So, apologies if that comes off as offensive.

Thank the apology and explanation.

I can’t fathom an actual Hellenic polytheist making such a claim and not knowing the individual, but it would appear the person was not clear on what he was referencing or as another suggested, was having some kind of sport.

 

[Kallisto]

In fairness, the Greek religion is full of gods killing other gods.

The myths are allegorical, and therefore need to be viewed in that light. They are meant to teach man lessons. A way of providing certain truths when contemplated on.

But Was not Pandora and her Jar a “gift” from the gods (her name meaning “gift of all”), after all", yet at the same time she is known as kalon kakon, the beautiful evil…

“Beautiful evil” is an imprecise and poetic translation. “Beautiful” approximates “kalon” in that it can also be used to imply the goodness of something. E.g., A common phrase to describe why something works or is wonderful is, “that’s the beauty of it!” or “it’s a beautiful thing” when a goal is achieved; there is the “beauty” of seeing a mother holding her child or a group of people helping one another after a disaster. Likewise, “kakon” connotes “badness” rather than simply or solely “evil”. None in those examples might be physically attractive yet what they represent is “beautiful” or “goodness”. Something can be bad with out necessarily being inherently “evil”. The destruction caused by a hurricane or the misbehavior of a child or a quarrel leading to hurt are bad, even terrible, but not “evil”.

Pandora is the embodiment of both goodness and badness (positive/negative) in regards to human morality. If you look at the myth, two brothers are involved, Prometheus and Epimetheus. The name “prometheus” means “forethought”, and “epimetheus” means “after-thought” (hindsight). The gift of fire from Prometheus represents Man being gifted with foresight and self-awareness. Zeus punished Prometheus for the theft, it bestowed on Man awareness and knowledge that separated him from Nature. Prometheus warned Epimetheus to be cautious given Zeus’ displeasure but he didn’t heed his brother’s warning and accepted Pandora. Meanwhile Pandora was told not to open the jar but she succumbed to her curiosity and disobeyed.

“Pandora” means “all giving” (or all-gifted). What was unleashed were burdens such as toil and sickness and death. The story explains how Man transitioned from the Golden Age (living in total innocence, piety and harmony) to the Silver Age (living with hardship and impiety).

The remaining gift was hope, though that too is a gift which can be either “kalon” (good/positive) or “kakon” (bad/negative) if a person doesn’t strive for balance. “For far reaching hope is a boon to many men, but to many a delusion born of thoughtless desires.” (Sophocles, Antigone)

 

[Nine_Two]

“Beautiful evil” is an imprecise and poetic translation. “Beautiful” approximates “kalon” in that it can also be used to imply the goodness of something. E.g., A common phrase to describe why something works or is wonderful is, “that’s the beauty of it!” or “it’s a beautiful thing” when a goal is achieved; there is the “beauty” of seeing a mother holding her child or a group of people helping one another after a disaster. Likewise, “kakon” connotes “badness” rather than simply or solely “evil”. None in those examples might be physically attractive yet what they represent is “beautiful” or “goodness”. Something can be bad with out necessarily being inherently “evil”. The destruction caused by a hurricane or the misbehavior of a child or a quarrel leading to hurt are bad, even terrible, but not “evil”.

Pandora is the embodiment of both goodness and badness (positive/negative) in regards to human morality. If you look at the myth, two brothers are involved, Prometheus and Epimetheus. The name “prometheus” means “forethought”, and “epimetheus” means “after-thought” (hindsight). The gift of fire from Prometheus represents Man being gifted with foresight and self-awareness. Zeus punished Prometheus for the theft, it bestowed on Man awareness and knowledge that separated him from Nature. Prometheus warned Epimetheus to be cautious given Zeus’ displeasure but he didn’t heed his brother’s warning and accepted Pandora. Meanwhile Pandora was told not to open the jar but she succumbed to her curiosity and disobeyed.

“Pandora” means “all giving” (or all-gifted). What was unleashed were burdens such as toil and sickness and death. The story explains how Man transitioned from the Golden Age (living in total innocence, piety and harmony) to the Silver Age (living with hardship and impiety).

The remaining gift was hope, though that too is a gift which can be either “kalon” (good/positive) or “kakon” (bad/negative) if a person doesn’t strive for balance. “For far reaching hope is a boon to many men, but to many a delusion born of thoughtless desires.” (Sophocles, Antigone)

Ok, but those bad things all came from the jar, did they not? They weren’t unleashed by the gods, but the gods seem to have quite willingly provided the agency by which they came about.
This seems to indicate a degree of malevolence on the part of the gods.

Sallustius’ explanation seems as though it has been influenced quite greatly by the Christian perspective. Earlier writers seemed to look at the gods as possessing human frailties (including a propensity for evil), Plato even complained about this aspect of the Greek religion.

 

[Kallisto]

Ok, but those bad things all came from the jar, did they not? They weren’t unleashed by the gods, but the gods seem to have quite willingly provided the agency by which they came about.
This seems to indicate a degree of malevolence on the part of the gods.

By that same line of reasoning, your god is a malevolent god is he not? Per your beliefs he is responsible for all that is, and though not directly unleashed by this god, he quite willingly provided the agency by which the fall of man came about. That “seems to indicate a degree of malevolence on the part of the god”.

In the story of Pandora, Zeus is like a parent that’s angered, he sought to protect their innocence for as long as possible but the child is willful and is in a hurry to gain his independence. He’s curious and wants to go beyond the security his parents provide, but doesn’t think about consequences, disregards his parents warnings and acts irresponsibly.

There is good and bad in everything, just like the jar. If the person entrusted with the object does not act responsibly, does not follow the rules, he can tip (spill) the balance and produce unwanted results. It’s only through hind-sight (Epimetheus) that he sees error. The price of growing up, the leaving of innocence, is having to deal with the realities of life, which can be harsh. To make a modern comparison, the jar is like a car or a gun. Children are not allowed to handle either without rules and are admonished to be responsible. Neither object is inherently “good” or “bad” and yet either possesses the means of producing good or bad results. If the child does not do as he’s told and acts irresponsibly, either object can result in great misery and lost of life.

Does it “indicate a degree of malevolence” on the part of the parent if they see they can no longer shield their child and must let him face what comes with a life that can no longer be protected?

Sallustius’ explanation seems as though it has been influenced quite greatly by the Christian perspective. Earlier writers seemed to look at the gods as possessing human frailties (including a propensity for evil), Plato even complained about this aspect of the Greek religion.

Sallustius’ texts are from the 4th century, which is at the end of the Classical Greco-Roman period and Christianity was spreading its influence. It is a treatise that summarized Hellenic worship, not a central text to the religion. It is useful to Hellenics as one among many sources from various eras.

The early myths are allegorical not literal. Plato strongly felt that the gods should not be depicted with human-like frailties as they were by Hesiod and Homer because the gods are perfect and he was in favor of censoring any story by either writer.

 

[Skadi]

Ok, but those bad things all came from the jar, did they not? They weren’t unleashed by the gods, but the gods seem to have quite willingly provided the agency by which they came about.
This seems to indicate a degree of malevolence on the part of the gods.

Sallustius’ explanation seems as though it has been influenced quite greatly by the Christian perspective. Earlier writers seemed to look at the gods as possessing human frailties (including a propensity for evil), Plato even complained about this aspect of the Greek religion.

Im interested to know, given the similarity of this story and the story of Eve and the forbidden fruit, how is the christian genesis different? What makes this different from the tree of knowledge?

 

[Nine_Two]

Im interested to know, given the similarity of this story and the story of Eve and the forbidden fruit, how is the christian genesis different? What makes this different from the tree of knowledge?

Actually, I’d say that if you’re looking for the similar stories you should compare Eve and the forbidden fruit to Prometheus and the fire. You can’t look at Pandora without looking at the fire.

But going by a reading of Works and Days, and Genesis, and ignoring other commentary,

Eve is given to Adam, by God, as a ‘helper’ (NIV translation, Gen 2:20), while Pandora was given by Zeus, with the assistance of all the gods, as “fire’s price… an evil thing”.

The Tree of Knowledge (which would find its allegorical equivalence with the fire, and not with the jar, as it is what would allow mankind to turn from their idyllic beginnings) existed prior to Eve. The restriction placed on it was in the interests of mankind. Freewill, however, allowed her to disobey.

Pandora, meanwhile was given the jar specifically to open it and unleash the evils on mankind.

Both of these events caused mankind to toil for everything and unleashed all that is wrong upon the world. In the case of Pandora, all of this came directly from the jar. In the case of the Bible, the toil came from a curse, while the evil things came as a side effect of the knowledge which they gained with the fruit.

At least that would be my take on it going by those accounts.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why worship a god that would just as sooner kill you even if you were loyal to them and then probably sleep with your wife?

 

[KingJohn]

Do you believe Zeus protects from criminals, burglars, things of that nature?