Questions for Lutherans (LCMS)

[EvangelCatholic]

What I find encouraging is that Lutheran and Anglican/ Episcopal are in full communion even if we disagree over gender/ sexuality. LWF encourages the LCMS to join the federation of all Lutherans.

 

[JonNC]

What I find encouraging is that Lutheran and Anglican/ Episcopal are in full communion even if we disagree over gender/ sexuality. LWF encourages the LCMS to join the federation of all Lutherans.

I would certainly like to see all Lutherans in agreement on the issues that divide us, but the honest truth is that there are some issues, as you mention, that we are divided on, and we believe that on those issues, the historic teachings of the Church Catholic are consistently in compliance with scripture and the a traditions of the Church. We hold to those, and encourage LWF Lutherans to return to those historic teachings.

Jon

 

[seanman611]

My point is, there are a number of Anglican churches that, if available, may be must as good a fit for you.
If not, the door is always open.

Thanks for sharing a bit of your journey!

The closest continuing Anglican or even ACNA parish is about 90 miles away, too far for my family and too far for me to be active. I’m very happy with my Episcopal parish as it is traditionalist and fantastic in so many ways. That said, our national leaders have lost their minds, but no matter how traditional or un-traditional the national church is in any denomination, half the battle is still finding a good parish. We shall see what the 2015 General Convention brings. My “last straw” would be allowing Communion without baptism. To me, that would be a clear departure from the apostolic faith.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Some have pointed out ELCA college/ parishes that communion the unbaptized. My hope is that we stay within the tradition of sequential sacraments.

The LWF is the fraternal head of Lutherans but many synods/ diocese/ national church do not agree with female clergy/ same-sex marriage. The very definition of our mutual Catholic faith has been articulated well in Declarations with Rome. All Lutherans believe the same. The Lutheran World Federation is preparing Lutherans to reunite with our mother, the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I would certainly like to see all Lutherans in agreement on the issues that divide us, but the honest truth is that there are some issues, as you mention, that we are divided on, and we believe that on those issues, the historic teachings of the Church Catholic are consistently in compliance with scripture and the a traditions of the Church. We hold to those, and encourage LWF Lutherans to return to those historic teachings.

Jon

Indeed. Once the LWF abandons its doctrinal and practical aberrations that are inconsistent with historic Christian teaching and they rejoin their fellow Lutherans, then true dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church can start. We need to get on the same page re abortion, gay marriage, female pastors, etc. Until then we can only hope for fluffbunny, flimsy statements such as the “Joint Declaration”.

 

[JonNC]

Indeed. Once the LWF abandons its doctrinal and practical aberrations that are inconsistent with historic Christian teaching and they rejoin their fellow Lutherans, then true dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church can start. We need to get on the same page re abortion, gay marriage, female pastors, etc. Until then we can only hope for fluffbunny, flimsy statements such as the “Joint Declaration”.

I agree, House, except I find the JDDJ, as far as it goes, to be a very helpful step on the road to unity between Lutherans and Catholics. The problem is, as you note, the LWF seems to be drifting further and further away from orthodox catholic teaching. I’m not sure how much further they can take the dialogue, as a result. I think, more and more, the Catholic Church will begin to turn to ILC communions.

Jon

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Thanks everybody for these answers, I appreciate it!!

Another question, are any of you Missouri Synod Lutherans seeing any unique trends with young people coming out of seminary?

In the Episcopal Church, we are finding that young people coming out of seminary are much more traditional than the baby boomers. By traditional, I mean liturgically and to a certain degree, theologically. Most of them are quite socially liberal, yet they can say the Creeds without crossing their fingers or without reservations. Liturgically, our young priests are not that interested in evangelical worship or praise bands and prefer a high-church or Anglo-Catholic liturgy.

So, with those young pastors coming out of seminary are you noticing any trends like that as far as liturgy goes or are your young pastors more inclined to something more evangelical and modern?

I’ve read about this occurring among Catholic seminarians as well. There is a deeper appreciation for traditional liturgy. Perhaps with the outgrowth of liberalism from the '60s, the pendulum is beginning to swing back.

 

[benjohnson]

Thanks for sharing a bit of your journey!

The closest continuing Anglican or even ACNA parish is about 90 miles away, too far for my family and too far for me to be active. I’m very happy with my Episcopal parish as it is traditionalist and fantastic in so many ways. That said, our national leaders have lost their minds, but no matter how traditional or un-traditional the national church is in any denomination, half the battle is still finding a good parish. We shall see what the 2015 General Convention brings. My “last straw” would be allowing Communion without baptism. To me, that would be a clear departure from the apostolic faith.

Just a thought - being a witness to historic Christian faith within a communion that is going bonkers can also be a benefit and a blessing. There’s several local parishes here in Washington that have intentionally remained within a more secular national church in order to proclaim the Gospel.

 

[seanman611]

Just a thought - being a witness to historic Christian faith within a communion that is going bonkers can also be a benefit and a blessing. There’s several local parishes here in Washington that have intentionally remained within a more secular national church in order to proclaim the Gospel.

Indeed and that is why I remain. I just think that it would be a lost cause if they passed Communion without baptism. It just goes to show how differently the two camps view the Eucharist. The progressive camp says that making people wait to receive until they are baptized might make them sad and feel “unwelcome.” It’s inclusiveness gone wild! They also view the Eucharist more as a “power” meal, kind of like an energy bar. It seems that the expressed goal of the national church is to get a seal of approval from secular society. I don’t think that their intentions are necessarily bad, it is just that they can’t fathom that many people are not going to like the message of the church. Therefore, they water the message down until there isn’t any message left. Many of us call it a “negative crossover.” They have alienated many of the faithful Anglicans they have and then they fail to attract new members from secular society because secular society just doesn’t care.

As far as the LWF, have negotiations slowed with the RCC due to them approving women’s ordination and moving in a liberal direction as far as gay issues?

 

[benjohnson]

Indeed and that is why I remain.

God bless you in your steadfast faith!

I still maintain ties with an ELCA church that very confessional - it’s been a blessing to see that faith can thrive even when there is rampant secularism from the top down.

As far as the LWF, have negotiations slowed with the RCC due to them approving women’s ordination and moving in a liberal direction as far as gay issues?

I don’t know of the specifics - but me hunch is that true meaningful dialog is impossible. It’s weird for me to say this, but I hope the RCC calls us Lutherans to repent and comeback to the Cross.

Recently, Pope Benedict XVI gave a greeting to us LCMS Lutherans - he knows our confessions, so given our stand against the papal office this was a true expression of Christian love. I know it made my heart glad.

 

[steido01]

As far as the LWF, have negotiations slowed with the RCC due to them approving women’s ordination and moving in a liberal direction as far as gay issues?

Yes, considerably. The RCC has shifted its attention toward orthodox Lutheran bodies. The the International Lutheran Council (ILC, which the LCMS is part) and the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity (PCPCU) have agreed to new dialogue, centered on Theology rather than on unity for the sake of unity: firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/11/a-new-confessional-direction-in-catholic-lutheran-dialogue/.

Even on the Lutheran side, there is a return to Confessionalism. The Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY) -the largest Lutheran church body in the world- severed all ties with the ELCA and the Church of Sweden and is looking to join the ILC; seeking fellowship with more Confessional bodies, including the LCMS - President Harrison recently met with the EECMY’s leading Bishop. Tremendous changes happening in the Lutheran world.

 

[seanman611]

Yes, considerably. The RCC has shifted its attention toward orthodox Lutheran bodies. The the International Lutheran Council (ILC, which the LCMS is part) and the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity (PCPCU) have agreed to new dialogue, centered on Theology rather than on unity for the sake of unity: firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/11/a-new-confessional-direction-in-catholic-lutheran-dialogue/.

Even on the Lutheran side, there is a return to Confessionalism. The Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY) -the largest Lutheran church body in the world- severed all ties with the ELCA and the Church of Sweden and is looking to join the ILC; seeking fellowship with more Confessional bodies, including the LCMS - President Harrison recently met with the EECMY’s leading Bishop. Tremendous changes happening in the Lutheran world.

I see, thanks for the info. This is not unlike what is going on in the Anglican world. Talks between the Communion and the RCC have stalled for the same reasons. The vast majority of provinces in the Communion take a traditionalist approach to homosexual issues, however, the majority ordain women to the priesthood. There have been interesting agreements in regards to Mary, the Eucharist, and justification, however, there really isn’t anything else for Anglicans and the RCC to talk about with our side ordaining female priests.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Thanks for sharing a bit of your journey!

The closest continuing Anglican or even ACNA parish is about 90 miles away, too far for my family and too far for me to be active. I’m very happy with my Episcopal parish as it is traditionalist and fantastic in so many ways. That said, our national leaders have lost their minds, but no matter how traditional or un-traditional the national church is in any denomination, half the battle is still finding a good parish. We shall see what the 2015 General Convention brings. My “last straw” would be allowing Communion without baptism. To me, that would be a clear departure from the apostolic faith.

There is dialogue going on between the ACNA and the LCMS, btw.

Concordia Theological Seminary - Fort Wayne

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Lutheran World Federation represents Lutherans in the official Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. The 2013 ‘From Conflict to Communion’ outlines the relationship between Lutherans and Catholics. The LWF includes 90% of all world-wide Lutherans, including the Lutherans in Ethiopia. The Church of Sweden and the ELCA began ordaining women decades ago yet that did not seem to interfere in the dialogue with Rome and, in-fact, produced the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 2009, considered the most significant ecumenical accord in the 21st Century.

The LCMS did not sign the JDDJ and is one of only a few remote Lutheran synods that remain outside the LWF. The Roman Catholic Church did not invite the LCMS to the last Dialogue sessions.

The Church is struggling with the issue of people born attracted to the same sex and as Pope Francis points out that these “ethical and anthropological” issues require further prayer and insight.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I see, thanks for the info. This is not unlike what is going on in the Anglican world. Talks between the Communion and the RCC have stalled for the same reasons. The vast majority of provinces in the Communion take a traditionalist approach to homosexual issues, however, the majority ordain women to the priesthood. There have been interesting agreements in regards to Mary, the Eucharist, and justification, however, there really isn’t anything else for Anglicans and the RCC to talk about with our side ordaining female priests.

Does ‘agreement’ mean different things to Anglicans and other protestants vs. Catholics? I’ve seen this stated that Lutherans or Anglicans have “agreements” on such topics, but when asking individual clergy, even Bishops, they seem to not agree at all. In fact, are the agreements binding on the non-Catholic side? I asked a couple clerics one a “church of South India” (Anglican church of South India) and the other a “full communion” partner of the Anglicans called the “Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” about their denominations views about Eucharist (as he sees it) and St Mary - both pretty much deny the term “Theotokos” and teach the “symbolic presence”, and also seem iconoclastic, but accept the legitimacy of female clergy. How can they possibly be in “agreement”?

 

[seanman611]

The Lutheran World Federation represents Lutherans in the official Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. The 2013 ‘From Conflict to Communion’ outlines the relationship between Lutherans and Catholics. The LWF includes 90% of all world-wide Lutherans, including the Lutherans in Ethiopia. The Church of Sweden and the ELCA began ordaining women decades ago yet that did not seem to interfere in the dialogue with Rome and, in-fact, produced the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 2009, considered the most significant ecumenical accord in the 21st Century.

Ordaining women didn’t stop dialogue for the Anglicans either, but when it comes to the nitty-gritty issues of validity of orders and full communion, there is just no way the RCC will be able to look past ordaining women.

The LCMS did not sign the JDDJ and is one of only a few remote Lutheran synods that remain outside the LWF. The Roman Catholic Church did not invite the LCMS to the last Dialogue sessions.

Why wasn’t the LCMS invited?

The Church is struggling with the issue of people born attracted to the same sex and as Pope Francis points out that these “ethical and anthropological” issues require further prayer and insight.

Indeed, but I just don’t see the RCC accepting women’s ordination or active same-sex relationships.

 

[seanman611]

Does ‘agreement’ mean different things to Anglicans and other protestants vs. Catholics? I’ve seen this stated that Lutherans or Anglicans have “agreements” on such topics, but when asking individual clergy, even Bishops, they seem to not agree at all. In fact, are the agreements binding on the non-Catholic side? I asked a couple clerics one a “church of South India” (Anglican church of South India) and the other a “full communion” partner of the Anglicans called the “Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” about their denominations views about Eucharist (as he sees it) and St Mary - both pretty much deny the term “Theotokos” and teach the “symbolic presence”, and also seem iconoclastic, but accept the legitimacy of female clergy. How can they possibly be in “agreement”?

It is not what I would call 100% full agreement on every little issue having to do with Mary, the Eucharist, and justification. However, what the agreements are saying is that there isn’t any issues that really seperate us in regards to certain issues like Mary or justification. I know that the agreement on the Eucharist was accepted by the Lambeth Conference and became an official teaching of the Anglican Communion. Thus, it is more than just “fluff” to make us feel good.

Finding one parish and one priest that denies the Real Presence isn’t really saying much about global Anglicanism is it? In fact, if I looked, I bet I could find a number of RC priests who deny the real presence.

Also, as I pointed out in other posts, the conversations grind to a halt when it comes to validity of orders due to Anglicans ordaining women.

 

[SyroMalankara]

It is not what I would call 100% full agreement on every little issue having to do with Mary, the Eucharist, and justification. However, what the agreements are saying is that there isn’t any issues that really seperate us in regards to certain issues like Mary or justification. I know that the agreement on the Eucharist was accepted by the Lambeth Conference and became an official teaching of the Anglican Communion. Thus, it is more than just “fluff” to make us feel good.

Finding one parish and one priest that denies the Real Presence isn’t really saying much about global Anglicanism is it? In fact, if I looked, I bet I could find a number of RC priests who deny the real presence.

Also, as I pointed out in other posts, the conversations grind to a halt when it comes to validity of orders due to Anglicans ordaining women.

The (Anglican) church of South India and (Anglican) church of North India, as a whole is very low church protestant - in fact, many in the clergy did not know until recent decades that there was an Anglo-Catholic wing in the “Anglican Communion”, since they were initiated by Church of Scotland low church missionaries in the late 18th Century. The cleric of the “Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” (Anglican) was a high ranking priest, and I even spoke privately to two bishops who restated the same thing. Are these “agreements” binding? Even if it is “official teaching” - what does that mean for these other two bodies, are they binding on them or does it leave a lot of wiggle room? All the bodies mentioned also deny the Intercession of Saints and refuse to Pray for the Dead, even though the Anglican Communion seemingly has the teaching similar to Catholics, and even shrines of the “Church of England”… just so you understand my confusion.

 

[steido01]

Why wasn’t the LCMS invited?

Good question, and one I’ve not heard answered form the RC side. The LCMS was an observer for that round, but has been a dialogue partner in every other round of dialogue before and since (the LCMS is back for Round XI).

My guess would be that Rome knew the sort language in what would become the JDDJ would be too vague for the LCMS to accept. As it was, Rome couldn’t even accept it without caveats. Why bother agreeing if there is no agreement?

Indeed, but I just don’t see the RCC accepting women’s ordination or active same-sex relationships.

Amen. Nor will real, good, old-fashioned Confessional Lutheranism. We’re too catholic for that hooey.

 

[seanman611]

The (Anglican) church of South India and (Anglican) church of North India, as a whole is very low church protestant - in fact, many in the clergy did not know until recent decades that there was an Anglo-Catholic wing in the “Anglican Communion”, since they were initiated by Church of Scotland low church missionaries in the late 18th Century. The cleric of the “Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” (Anglican) was a high ranking priest, and I even spoke privately to two bishops who restated the same thing. Are these “agreements” binding? Even if it is “official teaching” - what does that mean for these other two bodies, are they binding on them or does it leave a lot of wiggle room? All the bodies mentioned also deny the Intercession of Saints and refuse to Pray for the Dead, even though the Anglican Communion seemingly has the teaching similar to Catholics, and even shrines of the “Church of England”… just so you understand my confusion.

Okay, I understand what you are saying now. Yes, there is a lot of wiggle room in Anglican theology. Also, despite being an official teaching, I do not think that it is binding on any province. Even if it was, there are no real mechanisms to enforce it.