Questions for Lutherans (LCMS)

[CatholicServant]

My dad was an LCA/ELCA pastor. I often called him “Father”.

Jon

Best response Jon…

 

[steido01]

The Lutheran World Federation represents Lutherans in the official Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. The 2013 ‘From Conflict to Communion’ outlines the relationship between Lutherans and Catholics. The LWF includes 90% of all world-wide Lutherans, including the Lutherans in Ethiopia. The Church of Sweden and the ELCA began ordaining women decades ago yet that did not seem to interfere in the dialogue with Rome and, in-fact, produced the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 2009, considered the most significant ecumenical accord in the 21st Century.

The LCMS did not sign the JDDJ and is one of only a few remote Lutheran synods that remain outside the LWF. The Roman Catholic Church did not invite the LCMS to the last Dialogue sessions.

The Church is struggling with the issue of people born attracted to the same sex and as Pope Francis points out that these “ethical and anthropological” issues require further prayer and insight.

I’m not sure the LWF can continue to claim to be the representative voice of worldwide Lutheranism. It doesn’t actually have the numbers it boasts, and even if it did, that’d be an argumentum ad populum. But the main objection that I have to the idea of the LWF “representing” Lutheranism is that so many of its member bodies simply are not Lutheran, and passing off the un-Lutheran practices as simple matters of ethical and anthropological interest depreciates the magnitude of those un-Scriptural departures from orthodoxy.

Now, I’m saying the following not to start a fight, but because* I think the ramifications of what is happening within those communions that call themselves Lutheran will have a tremendous effect on how dialogue will continue with Rome (and we are seeing the beginning of the effect already)*. I hope that those who have a vested interest in the LWF will see this for what it is, and our Roman Catholic friends also understand why dialogue is shifting toward the Confessional Lutherans:

There are approximately 74 million people who call themselves Lutherans worldwide. The Lutheran Churches in Madagascar and Ethiopia are in the process of leaving the LWF for the waters of more Confessional Lutheranism, so we can safely remove their 9-10 million. Germany has around 12 million “Lutherans” who, if they actually practice and aren’t simply a cultural artifact, are part of the union church there - more Reformed than Lutheran. The next-largest “Lutheran” body in Europe is the Church of Sweden, whose female leader recently couldn’t decide between Jesus or Muhammed - scratch another 6 million. The same basics apply to the European LWF churches - they just aren’t Lutheran. Meanwhile, the story isn’t much different in America. The ELCA has approximately 3.75 million, with a goodly percentage still Lutheran, but significant portions busy worshiping pagan goddesses and making sure God isn’t too masculine - doesn’t sound particularly Lutheran (or Christian for that matter). So we can write off (conservatively) perhaps 2 million there as Gnostic/Deist/General Protestant. We’ve already removed nigh 30 million “Lutherans” from under the LWF label.

Again, I’m not presenting this to pick a fight - simply noting that numbers don’t tell the whole story, particularly when measuring Lutherans. Doctrine is the measure of a Lutheran.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Why wasn’t the LCMS invited?

You don’t want to invite the LCMS, they are going to treat your house like its a bar. They are THAT kind of party guest.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Yes, considerably. The RCC has shifted its attention toward orthodox Lutheran bodies. The the International Lutheran Council (ILC, which the LCMS is part) and the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity (PCPCU) have agreed to new dialogue, centered on Theology rather than on unity for the sake of unity: firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/11/a-new-confessional-direction-in-catholic-lutheran-dialogue/.

Even on the Lutheran side, there is a return to Confessionalism. The Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY) -the largest Lutheran church body in the world- severed all ties with the ELCA and the Church of Sweden and is looking to join the ILC; seeking fellowship with more Confessional bodies, including the LCMS - President Harrison recently met with the EECMY’s leading Bishop. Tremendous changes happening in the Lutheran world.

That’s awesome. Much prayers for our Ethiopian brothers and sisters. We are seeing just the beginning, as some churches are practically sprinting in the wrong direction, some will see the light so to speak. That was a wise decision on their part.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Aside from the spin and wishful thinking by some posters, the bottom line is that Lutherans are confessional. That strong commitment to the Catholic faith produced the astounding consensus between Lutherans and Catholics as evidenced in the 50+ years of Dialogue and summarized in 'From Conflict to Communion" last year. Lutherans are ready, as least theologically, to return to the Mother Church. Our beliefs are ‘church uniting’ not ‘church dividing’ per the Joint Catholic-Lutheran Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification; this is very important to this issue.

The Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity did not reach these historic accords with exemptions or qualifiers that female priests and gay people would are not welcome into the Church.

Unless one has had personal experience with loved ones who are gay or at least an empathy [such as Francis] for understanding God’s creation than this issue is devoid of humanity. Lutherans and Anglicans, representing the other half of the Western Church, struggle/ discern the Gospel message to love.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

 

[steido01]

You don’t want to invite the LCMS, they are going to treat your house like its a bar. They are THAT kind of party guest.

Truth. Little-known made-up fact: Tolkien patterned Hobbit drinking habits off of Missouri Synod Lutherans.

 

[steido01]

That’s awesome. Much prayers for our Ethiopian brothers and sisters. We are seeing just the beginning, as some churches are practically sprinting in the wrong direction, some will see the light so to speak. That was a wise decision on their part.

Yep! There’ll be some bridges to mend, but it’s doable. For example, the EECMY had begun “ordaining” women at the behest of the Church of Sweden. That’ll need to be sorted out. But then again, it might turn out to be an instance where culture and the titles associated with various ministries have simply been confused (no thanks to the colonizing Liberal bodies that sought to find company in its abandonment of orthodoxy). From what I understand, the women never presided over the Sacraments, but assisted in roles more fitting of a deaconess. Time and the Presidium will tell. I see full unity in my lifetime. As you wrote, this is just the beginning.

 

[JonNC]

The Lutheran World Federation represents Lutherans in the official Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. The 2013 ‘From Conflict to Communion’ outlines the relationship between Lutherans and Catholics. The LWF includes 90% of all world-wide Lutherans, including the Lutherans in Ethiopia. The Church of Sweden and the ELCA began ordaining women decades ago yet that did not seem to interfere in the dialogue with Rome and, in-fact, produced the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 2009, considered the most significant ecumenical accord in the 21st Century.

The LCMS did not sign the JDDJ and is one of only a few remote Lutheran synods that remain outside the LWF. The Roman Catholic Church did not invite the LCMS to the last Dialogue sessions.

The Church is struggling with the issue of people born attracted to the same sex and as Pope Francis points out that these “ethical and anthropological” issues require further prayer and insight.

Hi EC,
Just on the bolded, since the rest has been covered:
The Church Catholic is not “struggling with the issue of people born attracted to the same sex”, except where scriptural and traditional beliefs are being questioned.
People, regardless if the are same-gender attracted, or opposite-gender attracted, are called by God to be chaste outside of marriage. Marriage, from Genesis on, instituted by God, is between a man and a woman. These are facts of the faith that are incontrovertible, and there is no struggle with them in the least.

Christians, on the one hand, are called to accept in Christian love and charity all of our brothers and sisters in Christ, including those who are homosexual. Homosexuals, just like their heterosexual siblings, are called to the command of chastity, out of the new obedience.

Jon