Questions for Mormons..

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ohmahgawsh this is soo much to read…and all this on ‘temple rites’ n stuff…

i really could care less how you pray, or what you pray to in the temple, the only thing that i worry or wonder about as far as any of that goes is if your hurting people. i think i asked at one point if mormons used suicide or assisted suicide for those with grave sins as a form of pennance…i dont think i got that answer…and the link to the ‘endowment ceremony’ i dont think would have an answer to that…
No, we do not use 'suicide or assisted suicide for those with grave sins as a form of penance." We never did, don’t now, and never will. For us, suicide is self-murder; and it is a very, very grave sin. Huge. We do not, however, refuse burial in consecrated ground as a result; we also believe that sins committed when one is not mentally accountable for one’s actions are not, in fact, sins…and how do we know what is actually in the mind of a suicide?
other than that the only thing i was trying to draw out in this thread was what you guys believe…like, in regards to God, christ, angels…where you go when you die, how you ‘progress’ that kinda stuff…i think that just by discussing THOSE things will easily contrast our beliefs for me, and maybe one or the other side will provide some sort of scripture (that we BOTH consider scripture to be fair) to support their point…instead im reading posts about Joseph Smith and temple practices etc …
Hmnn. I know that you have been referred to lds.org…Try this specific site for a basic introduction. You can explore these questions as we explain them, and then compare them to your own personal beliefs.

Once you are done with (or tired of) that site, if you have further questions, we’ll be happy to help you with them.
 
LDS prophet Brigham Young taught a doctrine called “blood atonement”. The belief behind it is, there are certain sins such as murder that the blood of Jesus Christ is not enough to atone for these sins. So, the person who commits these sins should die, in a manner that their blood is spilled.

There are documented instances of this occurring in the days of Brigham Young. It carried forward, in the form of support for the death penalty, specifically by firing squad. Today, the LDS church denies this belief/practice. It is one of those things that has become “opinion”.

There are mormon splinter groups (not mainstream LDS) who still practice this doctrine. One example is found in the book, “Under The Banner of Heaven”, by John Krakauer. It relates this practice, and how it was used by the two Lafferty brothers to kill their sister-in-law and 15 month old niece.
GAAAAAAAAASP :eek:

see now thats where i get iffy…i have total respect for other religions, im very VERY open minded…and i know there are just so many different backgrounds people come from…like…i dont hold it against anyone for being raised with certain beliefs…but…at some point everyone is an adult…and, hopefully, have common sense…and i would hope that their common sense would make them question certain things…that just breaks my heart…im glad that they DONT practice this anymore…

but this whole, ‘not practicing, not believing’ things ANYMORE makes my common sense o meter go crazy…you know, last week i went to the library…and picked out this book, idk if you guys have ever heard of it, its called ‘1984’ by george orwell??? so anyways, in this book, the ‘big brother’ or government in control rewrites history to always make itself correct, or right, however you wanna put it…TOTALLY not to offend any mormons here, but the whole, ‘well that prophet spoke as a human, so we dont believe that anymore’ its kinda like the same thing…we believe what we believe NOW cuz this guy says it is so…

kinda…just…iffy a little…

i’ll point out the obvious, yes, catholics believe in something that maybe a guy 2000 yrs ago said is so…but at least its a constant belief…if something is switching up every 50, 60, 20 yrs, how do you know WHAT the heck to believe?? like, for instance, lets say, growing up mormon, the prophet was, Jim Bob. And he said that the sky was blue and the earth was round…and like, when you were … 45…he died, or…maybe better put he did something that went against mormonism in some way so they denounced him…so…now they got a new prophet…and HE says the sky is purple and the earth is flat…soooo…at no point you guys ever question it??? you just flip the script on your way of thinking all together or??? you know what i mean? how do you come to terms with something like that? is there only one prophet at a time?? or several??
 
No, we do not use 'suicide or assisted suicide for those with grave sins as a form of penance." We never did, don’t now, and never will. For us, suicide is self-murder; and it is a very, very grave sin.
hey dianaiad…you know i have soo much respect for you…i swear its hard for me to talk to you, cuz …i just have this feeling that if i take the wrong tone in typing my grandmas gonna come outta no where and backhand me!! lol…respect yer elders!! lol…

ok but i found this:

Under the section, “Blood Atonement,” of the book, Mormon Doctrine, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote, “…there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins,” (2nd ed. 1979, p.92).

In the same article McConkie quoted his father-in-law, who was the tenth Mormon Prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, as saying:

“Man may commit certain grievous sins… that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ… If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone… (Doctrine of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 133-138)” (Ibid).

sooo…like you said above, they NEVER HAVE … please tell me that you can admit, that they HAVE…i dont think its denouncing or disrespecting your religion to admit that…i can admit that theres been some ugly stuff regarding catholicism that i might not agree with…i just have a sense of ‘reality’ and if this is the (past) reality of what your religion believed than i hope you recognize that…
 
GAAAAAAAAASP :eek:

see now thats where i get iffy…i have total respect for other religions, im very VERY open minded…and i know there are just so many different backgrounds people come from…like…i dont hold it against anyone for being raised with certain beliefs…but…at some point everyone is an adult…and, hopefully, have common sense…and i would hope that their common sense would make them question certain things…that just breaks my heart…im glad that they DONT practice this anymore…
Keep in mind, these two brothers came from a mormon splinter group that has gone wayyyyy out. They are not LDS, as Diana and ParkerD are.
but this whole, ‘not practicing, not believing’ things ANYMORE makes my common sense o meter go crazy…
LDS are good with it. They see it as modern revelation. Today’s prophet can trump what yesterday’s prophet taught, and that is perfectly ok with them.
you know, last week i went to the library…and picked out this book, idk if you guys have ever heard of it, its called ‘1984’ by george orwell??? so anyways, in this book, the ‘big brother’ or government in control rewrites history to always make itself correct, or right, however you wanna put it…TOTALLY not to offend any mormons here, but the whole, ‘well that prophet spoke as a human, so we dont believe that anymore’ its kinda like the same thing…we believe what we believe NOW cuz this guy says it is so…
It is one thing I could never pin down, and still have not. WHAT exactly is mormon doctrine. Today they have this statement which supposedly defines what “doctrine” means to them. This is fairly new, and technically the statement itself is not doctrine, so who knows what the definition will be tomorrow.
kinda…just…iffy a little…
i’ll point out the obvious, yes, catholics believe in something that maybe a guy 2000 yrs ago said is so…but at least its a constant belief…if something is switching up every 50, 60, 20 yrs, how do you know WHAT the heck to believe?? like, for instance, lets say, growing up mormon, the prophet was, Jim Bob. And he said that the sky was blue and the earth was round…and like, when you were … 45…he died, or…maybe better put he did something that went against mormonism in some way so they denounced him…so…now they got a new prophet…and HE says the sky is purple and the earth is flat…soooo…at no point you guys ever question it??? you just flip the script on your way of thinking all together or??? you know what i mean? how do you come to terms with something like that? is there only one prophet at a time?? or several??
They are perfectly ok with a fluid doctrine. But yeah, the backpedaling and denial can make you nuts. They don’t view it as such, they view it as prophetic revelation. (That might be opinion tomorrow. Don’t ask me.)
 
Any faith can publish a brochure entitled: 101 Doubts about Lutheranism. Or 101 doubts about Methodism. Or 101 Doubts about Catholicism. And so on and so on…

Certainly an educated atheist can make a brochure…101 doubts about Religion.

At the end of the day, it is a waste of time and only sows contention. Bottom line: I don’t believe that god will treat devout mormons or devout catholics any different when they die then members of your own church who believe that they are following the way to the lord. And I do believe that I am right on this one. If not, then we have a pretty narrow minded god.
Well if you find critique about your belief there are usually 2 possible outcomes (if you look at it rationally):
  1. You learn a lot more about your own faith and you can refute the doubts after some studies.
  2. You find out that there are severe flaws in your religion and you choose to let go and turn away from it…
I do not see anything wrong with trying to investigate, because it will either strengthen the faith considerably or it will lead the believer to a faith that has less flaws.
 
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Religio71:
Hello Religio,

I did not expect you to honor my request. When I told Ricko to please not to paste and repost my post without comment because I find it personally abusive and harassing, you repasted that post without comment just to annoy me anyway. I want to thank you for representing the catholic faith as you do. You are a wonderful person. :rolleyes:

What is sad is that such behavior is acceptable on this thread and others. I hope that this sunday when you stand in line to receive the communion you can think of your actions toward me on this forum and how you ignored my request. 🙂
 
Well if you find critique about your belief there are usually 2 possible outcomes (if you look at it rationally):
  1. You learn a lot more about your own faith and you can refute the doubts after some studies.
  2. You find out that there are severe flaws in your religion and you choose to let go and turn away from it…
I do not see anything wrong with trying to investigate, because it will either strengthen the faith considerably or it will lead the believer to a faith that has less flaws.
First of all Janet, what is your opinion of catholicism? Do you have any problems with catholicism? this is a catholic forum.

You can go to the mormon site and ask your questions there about the mormon church. You will get many more mormons to reply to your posts and you may learn something. Or you can go to the www.fairlds.org site and put your questions into the search. You may get answers there. To ask questions about the mormon faith on a catholic forum is like me asking catholic questions on a born again christian forum. What kind of anwers would I get?

I can find such brochures about catholicism, islam, various faiths in protestantism etc. Usually they are written by people attempting to promote their faith and prove competing faiths false. I see no point in such exercises.
 
I do not see anything wrong with trying to investigate, because it will either strengthen the faith considerably or it will lead the believer to a faith that has less flaws.
For example here are several articles by mormons about the subject of blood atonement:

fairlds.org/apol/ai048.html

en.fairmormon.org/Blood_atonement
Response
Despite a number of rhetorical statements by LDS leaders in the late 1850s, there is no evidence that anyone was “blood atoned” at the orders of Brigham Young or any other general authority. Contemporary claims for such actions uniformly come from anti-Mormon books and newspapers with lurid titles such as The Destroying Angels of Mormondom and Abominations of Mormonism Exposed.

The First Presidency issued an official declaration on the matter of killing apostates, as a form of blood atonement, in 1889. This declaration reads, in part:

Notwithstanding all the stories told about the killing of apostates, no case of this kind has ever occurred, and of course has never been established against the Church we represent. Hundreds of seceders from the Church have continuously resided and now live in this territory, many of whom have amassed considerable wealth, though bitterly opposed to the Mormon faith and people. Even those who made it their business to fabricate the vilest falsehoods, and to render them plausible by culling isolated passages from old sermons without the explanatory context, and have suffered no opportunity to escape them of vilifying and blackening the characters of the people, have remained among those whom they have thus persistently calumniated until the present day, without receiving the slightest personal injury.
We denounce as entirely untrue the allegation which has been made, that our Church favors or believes in the killing of persons who leave the Church or apostatize from its doctrines. We would view a punishment of this character for such an act with the utmost horror; it is abhorrent to us and is in direct opposition to the fundamental principles of our creed.

Despite the critics’ claims, there is evidence that some crimes were considered worthy of death, even in the apostolic age among Christians:

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him…If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:16-18) (italics added).
As one historian noted,

That the doctrine [of blood atonement] was preached by high officials is a matter of record; the intent of the sermons became a matter of conjecture; and the results therefrom set vivid imaginations working overtime. Blood fairly flowed through the writing of such men as Beadle in Life in Utah or the Mysteries of Mormonism and Polygamy, in Linn’s The Story of Mormonism, and even Stenhouse’s anonymous chapter on Reformation and Blood Atonement in his Rocky Mountain Saints. Numerous killings, including the Mountain Meadows massacre, were credited as the fruits of the doctrine…
Omitted from quotations used by the anti-Mormons were restraining clauses such as follow from Brigham Young:
. . . The time has been in Israel under the law of God that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand. But now I say, in the name of the Lord, that if this people will sin no more, but faithfully live their religion, their sins will be forgiven them without taking life.
The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle’s being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.
The doctrine of blood atonement which involved concern for the salvation of those to be subjected to it, could have little meaning in the Mountain Meadows massacre, or any other of the murders laid unproved on the Mormon threshold (emphasis added).[5]
Brigham Young’s preaching style
Furthermore, critics have often misunderstood or misrepresented Brigham Young’s (and others LDS preachers’) preaching style, seeing them in ways differently than the Saints of the day did:

There grew between the Mormon leader and his congregation a bond that permitted…irreverence [toward Brigham personally]. Brigham cast himself as the Saints’ gruff but loving father, alternately scolding and befriending his flock. As lawgiver, he felt he should preach without compromise.
“I will tell you what this people need, with regard to preaching,” he said. “You need, figuratively, to have it rain pitchforks, tines downwards… Instead of the smooth, beautiful, sweet, still, silk-velvet-lipped preaching, you should have sermons like peals of thunder.”
True to his word, Brigham gave saints and sinners pitchforks aplenty. The latter might be especially hard hit if guilty of malicious anti-Mormonism…
But his outbursts were the exception rather than the rule, and even when thundering he often softened his blows with humor…He conjectured that some women’s dresses might conceal a six-horse team, with “a dozen dogs under the wagon.”…Far from rankling under his thrusts, the Mormon membership came to tolerate, expect, and even enjoy the show…
One did not have to go far to find the keys to his speaking popularity. For one thing, his audience sensed that behind his strong words lay a genuine concern". my heart yearns over [the Saints]… with all the emotions of tenderness, so that I could weep like a child," he said, but I am careful to keep my tears to myself." He assured his people that he never intended malice. “There is not a soul I chasten but what I feel as though I could take them and put them in my bosom and carry them with me day by day.”
Brigham believed that his strong words had not separated him from his flock. “Although I may get up here and cuff… [the people] about, chastising them for their forgetfulness, their weakness and follies, yet I have not seen a moment when they did not love me The reason is, because I love them so well.” He had rebuked with caution, he thought, employing a primary rule: “When you have the chastening rod in your hands, ask God to give you wisdom to use it, that you may not use it to the destruction of an individual, but to his salvation.”…
The Saints also understood that there was little bite to his celebrated bark. Young admitted as much. “I have had some people ask me how I manage and control the people,” he once remarked. “I do it by telling them the truth and letting them do just as they have a mind to.”…
 
Well, Janet what did you think about what the mormons had to say in the links? By the way, I see that you are a bible believing christian. How do you feel about the catholic church. As I understand it, many bible believing protestants do not favor the catholic faith. What about you? 🤷

By the way from that pasting I did from one of the links I liked this part:

Even those who made it their business to fabricate the vilest falsehoods, and to render them plausible by culling isolated passages from old sermons without the explanatory context, and have suffered no opportunity to escape them of vilifying and blackening the characters of the people, have remained among those whom they have thus persistently calumniated until the present day, without receiving the slightest personal injury.

And this was said in 1889…some things just don’t change. There were many Rebecca’s living in Utah in the 1880’s. And like Rebecca, they all did quite well. I am assuming that rebecca is doing quite well. 🙂

Sound familiar to some of the people on this forum in how they do their research?
 
Well if you find critique about your belief there are usually 2 possible outcomes (if you look at it rationally):
  1. You learn a lot more about your own faith and you can refute the doubts after some studies.
  2. You find out that there are severe flaws in your religion and you choose to let go and turn away from it…
I do not see anything wrong with trying to investigate, because it will either strengthen the faith considerably or it will lead the believer to a faith that has less flaws.
I always say investigate both sides. I’m sure Diana would agree, that I always address the actual, current beliefs of the LDS Church, instead of what you may read on ex-LDS or anti-LDS websites, since many times, it is based in some sort of misunderstanding. The temple penalties is one such area, as I can see what it was actually meant to symbolize, but is VERY misunderstood, and I do believe that it was a good idea to simply remove them.

So, read LDS sources firstly. Do not just stick to lds.org/mormon.org, as those are VERY basic explanations of the major beliefs. Only then will the information you read on ex/anti-Mormon websites make sense, and you’ll be able to make comparisons between the two, noting any differences in the portrayal of doctrines.

mi.byu.edu/
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/index.html
templestudy.com/ (reading this one currently)

Those are two websites I’ve read extensively to add to my knowledge from being LDS. After reading those I moved on to the “other” material. One such website that I find interesting is this:

mormonthink.com/

I’m not 100% sure it’s put together by actual LDS Church members, but it gives a good, basic comparison between “actual” belief and the information that isn’t always seen.

Also fyi, do not fall into Why Me’s traps of trying to subtly (and not so subtly) demean the Catholic Church, whether by making erroneous comparisons to practices of other religions, or referring to the Inquisition, Holocaust, USA abuse scandal, or by asking you of your opinion on the Catholic Church so he can make some sort of correlation, etc. He calls simple copy and pasting, with highlighting of pertinent information that points towards such behavior, as “abusive and harassing” :rolleyes: .He isn’t really Catholic (claims to read the Vatican newspaper as evidence :rolleyes:), so for the Catholic viewpoint, please look to actual Catholics.

Feel free to PM me for one ex-LDS’ point of view. I still like the LDS culture, however my issues were doctrinal.
 
Hello Religio,

I did not expect you to honor my request. When I told Ricko to please not to paste and repost my post without comment because I find it personally abusive and harassing, you repasted that post without comment just to annoy me anyway.** I want to thank you for representing the catholic faith as you do.** You are a wonderful person. :rolleyes:

What is sad is that such behavior is acceptable on this thread and others. I hope that this sunday when you stand in line to receive the communion you can think of your actions toward me on this forum and how you ignored my request. 🙂
 
hey dianaiad…you know i have soo much respect for you…i swear its hard for me to talk to you, cuz …i just have this feeling that if i take the wrong tone in typing my grandmas gonna come outta no where and backhand me!! lol…respect yer elders!! lol…

ok but i found this:

Under the section, “Blood Atonement,” of the book, Mormon Doctrine, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote, “…there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins,” (2nd ed. 1979, p.92).

In the same article McConkie quoted his father-in-law, who was the tenth Mormon Prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, as saying:

“Man may commit certain grievous sins… that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ… If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone… (Doctrine of Salvation, Vol. 1, pp. 133-138)” (Ibid).

sooo…like you said above, they NEVER HAVE … please tell me that you can admit, that they HAVE…i dont think its denouncing or disrespecting your religion to admit that…i can admit that theres been some ugly stuff regarding catholicism that i might not agree with…i just have a sense of ‘reality’ and if this is the (past) reality of what your religion believed than i hope you recognize that…
Now, Charlotte…do you see a difference between having a thief caught, arrested, tried and convicted of the crime, then sentenced to jail by a duly appointed court of law—and having a bunch of vigilantes show up and chop the thief’s hand off?

Do you see a difference between a murderer being tried, convicted and sentenced to execution by a duly authorized court of law—and having that same murderer committing suicide, or being hung by a group of vigilantes?

We do.

By the way, I would ask Rebecca to actually cite those ‘documented instances’ she talks about. Then, go look at them. Make very certain that they are documented by people who do NOT have a major problem with the church (like, for instance, J, Michael Quinn,…).

Then ask yourself if any of them are as well documented, and are the same as, say…the mob of men who stormed Carthage jail and murdered Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum.

It seems to me that people who talk about 'blood atonement" but leave all such judgment to duly elected/authorized courts–and who (as Brigham Young did) preach more often about forgiveness and ‘leave them alone’ than "go kill 'em,) are in better shape with the Lord than people who preach love, peace and forgiveness—and then send mobs to murder unarmed men.

But hey, that’s just me. What do I know?
 
Religio71,

I have asked you to stop pasting and posting my responses with underlined sentences but you continue to do so. I am asking you to stop. I find it abusive and it is harassment.

Are you sure you’re catholic? You certainly know the doctrine but your behavior…is not catholic. But that is okay…I understand.
 
Now, Charlotte…do you see a difference between having a thief caught, arrested, tried and convicted of the crime, then sentenced to jail by a duly appointed court of law—and having a bunch of vigilantes show up and chop the thief’s hand off?

Do you see a difference between a murderer being tried, convicted and sentenced to execution by a duly authorized court of law—and having that same murderer committing suicide, or being hung by a group of vigilantes?

We do.

By the way, I would ask Rebecca to actually cite those ‘documented instances’ she talks about. Then, go look at them. Make very certain that they are documented by people who do NOT have a major problem with the church (like, for instance, J, Michael Quinn,…).

Then ask yourself if any of them are as well documented, and are the same as, say…the mob of men who stormed Carthage jail and murdered Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum.

It seems to me that people who talk about 'blood atonement" but leave all such judgment to duly elected/authorized courts–and who (as Brigham Young did) preach more often about forgiveness and ‘leave them alone’ than "go kill 'em,) are in better shape with the Lord than people who preach love, peace and forgiveness—and then send mobs to murder unarmed men.

But hey, that’s just me. What do I know?
I do see the difference, and I agree that a mob of men, storming into a jail and murdering a man and his brother is wrong. flat out…and so what if another catholic on here gets mad at me for saying so, but everyone deserves the right to a fair trial, not to be dragged out and executed by an angry mob. I dont know the story behind joseph smith, but thats irrelevant to the scenario…EVERYONE deserves a fair trial…

and i will give you the benefit of the doubt that joseph smith more than likely preached forgiveness more than ‘blood atonement’

but the quotes that i pasted were from Bruce McConkie, NOT an anti mormon:

Bruce Redd McConkie (July 29, 1915 – April 19, 1985) was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1972 until his death. McConkie was a member of the First Council of the Seventy of the LDS Church from 1946 until his calling to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

So while I agree with you on the unfairness of the treatment of Joseph Smith, the point is irrelevant to the question and quotes…

Even though, as you say, now they do not believe or practice blood atonement, can you at least come to terms that at one time they did?
 
Also fyi, do not fall into Why Me’s traps of trying to subtly (and not so subtly) demean the Catholic Church, whether by making erroneous comparisons to practices of other religions, or referring to the Inquisition, Holocaust, USA abuse scandal, or by asking you of your opinion on the Catholic Church so he can make some sort of correlation, etc. He calls simple copy and pasting, with highlighting of pertinent information that points towards such behavior, as “abusive and harassing” :rolleyes: .He isn’t really Catholic (claims to read the Vatican newspaper as evidence :rolleyes:), so for the Catholic viewpoint, please look to actual Catholics.
Are you catholic when you ignore my request? I don’t think so. You certainly know doctrine but you have forgotten the human element to that doctrine. My point to Janet was this: she is on a catholic forum asking questions about mormonism. Janet is a protestant. Much better to go to a mormon forum and ask her questions there. Also, since she has a problem with mormonism and finds comfort as a protestant on a catholic site, I was just curious how she felt about catholicism. As I told her I can find plenty of brochures written by fanatics about competing faiths that show that competing faith false. I see no point in that exercise. And by the way, are you Christknight on MAD? I think so.

And I do find it abusive and harassment. But then again you got the idea from Stephen who did it a couple of times. And Rico, got it from you. The behavior is more contagious than the swine flu. But not very original.

I don’t think that it is up to you to decide who is a catholic and who is not. I did underline one sentence from your post. I told her the same thing about mormonism. Go to the mormons on the mormon sites. 🙂

But since I requested you to stop and you chose not to, I do think that you need to find the true meaning of Christ and adopt a favorite saint to help you along. I know I have: Saint therese of Lisieux. You can learn much from her. 🙂
 
Read the confession of John D. Lee. The same men who murdered at Mountain Meadows are the same who had been practicing “blood atonement”, with the murder of Rasmus Anderson. It was rumored that some in the Fancher-Baker party were responsible for the murder of Smith. Blood atonement, for Smith’s death, was one of the reasons given to massacre the entire company of men, women and children.

“Earth must atone for the blood of that man”

And Brigham Young was by no means preaching peace.
 
Religio71,

I have asked you to stop pasting and posting my responses with underlined sentences but you continue to do so. I am asking you to stop. I find it abusive and it is harassment.

Are you sure you’re catholic? You certainly know the doctrine but your behavior…is not catholic. But that is okay…I understand.
hey why me…

i just noticed that you are LDS and CATHOLIC…im seeing more and more how soo different these religions are…how do you work that?? is it, LDS with some catholic beliefs??? which ones appeal to you? and how does the mormon religion feel about those beliefs? do you get grief for adherring to them? your catholic beliefs that is?
 
yeah well i have a frekkn fly abusing and harrassing me…

aaaaaaaaagggghhh…of all the darn things in the house why does it KEEP landing on me…:mad:
 
hey why me…

i just noticed that you are LDS and CATHOLIC…im seeing more and more how soo different these religions are…how do you work that?? is it, LDS with some catholic beliefs??? which ones appeal to you? and how does the mormon religion feel about those beliefs? do you get grief for adherring to them? your catholic beliefs that is?
I try to take the spiritual from both faiths. I see good points in both faiths. It is true that doctrinally they are different. But in terms of spiritual growth, the catholics with their model saints and devotion to god, can lead a person to holiness. And with the lds, with ther devotion to prayer and morality can lead a person to righteousness. Catholic saints are good models for moral behavior too. I don’t think that god will punish mormons or catholics or protestants for what they believe as long as they obey that great commandment to love god, love neighbor and love enemy.

Like I told my board harasser Religio, he or she can learn much from St. Therese of Liseux in how to treat people whom he may not like. 🙂
 
Read the confession of John D. Lee. The same men who murdered at Mountain Meadows are the same who had been practicing “blood atonement”, with the murder of Rasmus Anderson. It was rumored that some in the Fancher-Baker party were responsible for the murder of Smith. Blood atonement, for Smith’s death, was one of the reasons given to massacre the entire company of men, women and children.

“Earth must atone for the blood of that man”

And Brigham Young was by no means preaching peace.
Mormons are not perfect then and now. Heck, no one is perfect. The mormons who killed that party made a terrible mistake. But when looked at in context, and what happened to the mormons in Nauvoo and in Missouri with mormons being murdered at Haun’s Mill etc. the mormons who did the killing where acting from some sort of disconnect with the new reality but still remembering the olden times.

But when we look at history, can you show me a church with members who always acted perfectly? Now Religio is bent all out of shape because I mentioned some aspects of catholics in history not exactly acting like catholics. But such is history. Is there a point to bring up MMM when someone can do a compare and contrast routine? At the end of the day, people are people…and flies are flies.

Here is some background to Mountain Meadows:

The Utah War
See also: Mormon reformation
In 1850, Utah was established as a U.S. territory, with Brigham Young as its first governor. Because of its territorial status, the federal government retained the right to appoint officials at various levels, in addition to actual federal offices existing within the territory. While there were, no doubt, many honest public servants among them, a number of the federal appointees to both territorial and federal positions, including some judges, turned out to be both morally venal and abusive of the prerogatives of their offices. Scandals arose over the behavior of some of these men, who left the territory in disgrace. Rather than accepting responsibility for their own failures, a group of them, upon returning to the East, published claims that they had been forcibly expelled, and that the Mormons were rebelling against federal authority.

These claims caused quite an uproar in Washington, where the nascent Republican Party demanded something be done about the Mormons. Acting without benefit of an investigation, U.S. President James Buchanan appointed Alfred Cumming as territorial governor and, on June 29, 1857, ordered federal troops to escort Cumming to Utah. Additionally, Buchanan ordered the cessation of all mail service to Utah in an effort to provide the advantage of surprise for the advancing troops.

Despite the efforts of Buchanan to keep the advance of the army secret, Mormon mail runners notified Brigham Young, the incumbent territorial governor, the very next month that troops were travelling to Utah. He had not been officially notified that he was to be replaced, so he viewed the news—combined with the efforts to hide the movement of the troops—as an act of war by the United States government against the Mormons. Brigham closed all Church missions, instructing all missionaries to return to Utah, and ordered the abandonment of the more isolated Mormon colonies. He prepared to defend the territory against the approaching army by adopting a “scorched earth” policy. He sent small parties to harass the approaching troops with the intent of slowing their progress while he prepared the Saints for the plausible possibility of battles with U.S. troops.

The news of the approaching army spread quickly through the body of the Saints as preparations were made. Many Mormon settlers vividly remembered the hardships of being forcibly (and violently) expelled from Missouri and Illinois, and were resolved not to be driven from their homes again. The mood in the territory was grim and determined. This conflict, known as the Utah War, was ultimately resolved peacefully; but it was into this tense atmosphere the Baker-Fancher train entered in August of 1857.

en.fairmormon.org/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

Context Rebecca, context.
 
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