Questions for Mormons..

[why_me]

Unfortunately for those critics who like to yell at us for this, the only mention of horses in the Book of Mormon were by the Jaredites, who lived something like 2500 years BC. Well, according to at least one archeological find in Canada, there were horses at that time.

Horses are mentioned in eight different Book of Mormon episodes that involve an ancient New World setting.1 Chronologically the first mention is in Jaredite times (Ether 9:19) and the last mention is among the Nephites in approximately 20 AD (3 Nephi 6:1).

You weren’t quite right with what you wrote. Horses are mentioned after the jaredites. I would read the link that I posted to bone up on it a little.

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/

Horses do pose a problem but not a very big problem. As the article states horse bones are hard to come by in general. But that doesn’t mean that there weren’t horses.

 

[why_me]

That depends on how you define “Indian”. Are they a race, or a multiplicity of cultures?

As for checking out the story told in the BOM, the only commonality between that and what they know about their history (especially east coast US and Canada and Great Lakes tribes) can be vaguely seen in the Viking/Norse history. I know, because I have discussed this thoroughly with people more in tune with their Native heritages than myself.

But there are indians who are mormon. Have you spoken with them about it? I think that you have.

 

[Dchsknight]

OK what about this one. The has many times over many times given historical reference and events that later have been proven by archaeology and the what not. FOR example. The book of Joshua states that when Joshua attacked Jericho after the last blast of the horns, the walls Fell out, not in, out… Tel Aviv Lies on top of Jericho. after a lot of digging and research they found the walls of Jericho, Fallen out ward.

There is even the possibility that we have found remnants of Noah’s ark. We have Christs tomb. THERE are hundreds upon hundreds of books and research that back up the events of the bible. There is not a single bit of history or research that backs up the book of mormon. What about that? were is the research and History to Back up the book of mormon?

Another Question, Where is your scripture? We have our scripter, Through the Dead sea scrolls the Torah and many other documents that form and comprise the bible. We can go see those documents. Where are you golden plates? And dont use the angel took to heaven excuse, BECAUSE the bible states that Christ will never leave us. Christ will never Leave us beacuse God=Jesus= Holy spirit, Basic principle of the Trinity. so the Holy spirit aka God aka Jesus all the same person, will never leave us. In John 1:1 it says That in the begining was the word, the word was with God and the Word Was God, then the Word became Flesh" therefore the Scriptures would never leave us, because Christ=Jesus=God=Holy Spirit=Bible. Why then would an angel defy the will of God to never leave us and remove the Holy Scriptures from us. That would mean that Angel is a Demon. For a angel to Defy the will of God means he is fallen. So where is your Scripture? if a Mormon can ever produce the Gold Plates, the real ones. not a replica, not a painting, not a photograph, the real plates there might be some Credit to the mormons.Christians can go to our real scriptures. We can go see the dead sea scrolls we can go see the cannons we can go see a gutenburg bible we can go see the Codex Sinactus, we can go see the Torah, the real thing. Where are the real Golden plates?

 

[why_me]

Diana, you should really read the BoM some time. It says:

I suppose that she has read the book of mormon many times but being human she made a mistake. However that doesn’t explain the scarcity of horse bones in general in other parts of the world that had an abundance of horses. People are quick to judge the book of mormon and yet overlook other interesting tidbits about horse bones and the lack thereof as stated in one of my previous posts.

 

[why_me]

OK what about this one. The has many times over many times given historical reference and events that later have been proven by archaeology and the what not. FOR example. The book of Joshua states that when Joshua attacked Jericho after the last blast of the horns, the walls Fell out, not in, out… Tel Aviv Lies on top of Jericho. after a lot of digging and research they found the walls of Jericho, Fallen out ward.

There is even the possibility that we have found remnants of Noah’s ark. We have Christs tomb. THERE are hundreds upon hundreds of books and research that back up the events of the bible. There is not a single bit of history or research that backs up the book of mormon. What about that? were is the research and History to Back up the book of mormon?

Another Question, Where is your scripture? We have our scripter, Through the Dead sea scrolls the Torah and many other documents that form and comprise the bible. We can go see those documents. Where are you golden plates? And dont use the angel took to heaven excuse, BECAUSE the bible states that Christ will never leave us. Christ will never Leave us beacuse God=Jesus= Holy spirit, Basic principle of the Trinity. so the Holy spirit aka God aka Jesus all the same person, will never leave us. In John 1:1 it says That in the begining was the word, the word was with God and the Word Was God, then the Word became Flesh" therefore the Scriptures would never leave us, because Christ=Jesus=God=Holy Spirit=Bible. Why then would an angel defy the will of God to never leave us and remove the Holy Scriptures from us. That would mean that Angel is a Demon. For a angel to Defy the will of God means he is fallen. So where is your Scripture? if a Mormon can ever produce the Gold Plates, the real ones. not a replica, not a painting, not a photograph, the real plates there might be some Credit to the mormons.Christians can go to our real scriptures. We can go see the dead sea scrolls we can go see the cannons we can go see a gutenburg bible we can go see the Codex Sinactus, we can go see the Torah, the real thing. Where are the real Golden plates?

If mormons had the real gold plates you would be a mormon and the existence of god would more or less be confirmed. No more need of faith because we have evidence that god exists. Now of course that would be wonderful but it is not according to god’s plan.

The fact is regardless of geographical evidence for the new testament, we have no proof outside the bible that Christ produced miracles or that he was the son of god. We have no eyewitness account beside what is in the bible that he actually performed such miracles. Now if we did, we may not need the faith that we need to believe in god. Such evídence would help us along that is for sure but…we don’t have such evidence, unfortunately.

Have we found the original slates that god wrote the ten commandments on? I would prefer that find to a written torah.

 

[Dchsknight]

If mormons had the real gold plates you would be a mormon and the existence of god would more or less be confirmed. No more need of faith because we have evidence that god exists. Now of course that would be wonderful but it is not according to god’s plan.

The fact is regardless of geographical evidence for the new testament, we have no proof outside the bible that Christ produced miracles or that he was the son of god. We have no eyewitness account beside what is in the bible that he actually performed such miracles. Now if we did, we may not need the faith that we need to believe in god. Such evídence would help us along that is for sure but…we don’t have such evidence, unfortunately.

Have we found the original slates that god wrote the ten commandments on? I would prefer that find to a written torah.

Actually Proof and evidence does matter and Proof backs up Faith. Here is why. Faith is only faith when it pertains to God exisiting and Salvation being real. There is no faith in volved with the bible. Here is why. THE BIBLE IS NOT OUR FAITH, it is the proof of our faith. In the bible are first hand accounts of Jesus and his disciples. THEN out side of the bible in secular history is proof of what the bible talks about. Proof that proves the Proof which is the bible which then leads to faith in that We believe the Proof. The reason that all proof matters and is required is that God all through out the first hand accounts and histories gives proof and credit to his disciples and followers. Elijah is given Elishas(Or the other way around can never keep straight who was who in that story) cloak to PROVE to the other prophets that he was given elijah’s power. The Pillar of Fire that came down and consumed everything on the alter was PROOF to the prophets of baal that baal was not a God. Every single Prophet from God has and was given Credit for what they spoke. When a prophet spoke miracles things happened to Back up him! I mean Jonah said ninaveh was going ot be destroyed the people believed him and changed but the soon reverted back and quess what Jonah was backed up, the city was destroyed. There is History and record of the Ninavites existing and then Disappearing.

YOu know what happens when a “prophet” came along that claimed to be of God but had no credit and no backing from God, He was killed. Prophets must have backing and credit or else they are insane and lairs and they should never be followed or else the kool-aid might get ya…

 

[dianaiad]

Horses are mentioned in eight different Book of Mormon episodes that involve an ancient New World setting.1 Chronologically the first mention is in Jaredite times (Ether 9:19) and the last mention is among the Nephites in approximately 20 AD (3 Nephi 6:1).

You weren’t quite right with what you wrote. Horses are mentioned after the jaredites. I would read the link that I posted to bone up on it a little.

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/

Horses do pose a problem but not a very big problem. As the article states horse bones are hard to come by in general. But that doesn’t mean that there weren’t horses.

You are the second person to correct me on this, and you are both right. I had actually written about the other mentions of horses, but in the rewriting process, that paragraph was deleted. I wasn’t paying close enough attention. Thanks for the correction.

 

[why_me]

Actually Proof and evidence does matter and Proof backs up Faith. Here is why. Faith is only faith when it pertains to God exisiting and Salvation being real. There is no faith in volved with the bible. Here is why. THE BIBLE IS NOT OUR FAITH, it is the proof of our faith. In the bible are first hand accounts of Jesus and his disciples.

A mormon can claim: The Book of Mormon is not our faith, it is proof of our faith. And in it our accounts of a people that existed in the new world.

But there is no evidence that god exists nor are there back up wítnesses to what is claimed in the bible. It would be nice if something was discovered that was written in AD 32-33 but…nothing so far. Imagine what would happen if such a discovery were made? Atheism would definitely have a difficult time of it.

 

[why_me]

You are the second person to correct me on this, and you are both right. I had actually written about the other mentions of horses, but in the rewriting process, that paragraph was deleted. I wasn’t paying close enough attention. Thanks for the correction.

The article makes a good come back about horse bones being in short supply in areas that were known to have a lot of horses. But that fact will always be overlooked by the critics.

 

[Dchsknight]

A mormon can claim: The Book of Mormon is not our faith, it is proof of our faith. And in it our accounts of a people that existed in the new world.

But there is no evidence that god exists nor are there back up wítnesses to what is claimed in the bible. It would be nice if something was discovered that was written in AD 32-33 but…nothing so far. Imagine what would happen if such a discovery were made? Atheism would definitely have a difficult time of it.

But the they can claim it yes, but they have no proof to back up such a claim. Their Claim is empty and a lie.

 

[Stephen168]

A mormon can claim: The Book of Mormon is not our faith, it is proof of our faith.

Yes, but the Book of Mormon as described by Joseph Smith has been proven to be false, so Mormonism is false.

 

[twopekinguys]

A mormon can claim: The Book of Mormon is not our faith, it is proof of our faith. And in it our accounts of a people that existed in the new world.

But there is no evidence that god exists nor are there back up wítnesses to what is claimed in the bible. It would be nice if something was discovered that was written in AD 32-33 but…nothing so far. Imagine what would happen if such a discovery were made? Atheism would definitely have a difficult time of it.

No back up witnesses?

How about 4 books of the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All written by people that were there. Sounds like good back up witnesses to me.

With most dates ranging between 50 and 70

abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/John.htm
abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/Matt.htm
abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Mark.htm
abu.nb.ca/Courses/NTIntro/Luke.htm

 

[why_me]

No back up witnesses?

How about 4 books of the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All written by people that were there. Sounds like good back up witnesses to me.

Not really. We have no witness testimony outside the bible. We must believe the bible based on faith and not evidence. Now it would be great to have a backup witness outside the bible. But we don’t. Now we can use our imagination and see Paul in Judea meeting James and then attempting to confirm the miracles of Jesus among the locals. But we have no record of it. Certainly there would be eyewitness at the time of Paul or children of witnesses. But no record of him seeking confirmation.

Everything is based on faith.

 

[why_me]

Yes, but the Book of Mormon as described by Joseph Smith has been proven to be false, so Mormonism is false.

I will alert the Utah newspapers and they will be in touch with you for the proof.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Anyone want to buy my bridge? Please send to my PayPal account $100. I can send to anyone interested a list of 11 references that testify the bridge is real and in good working order.

 

[twopekinguys]

hmmmm let’s see here.

4 witnesses, who wrote extensively about what they saw, heard, learned, etc. Never excommed,’, and never recanted.

But that’s not good enough……:whacky:

11 people who saw “gold plates” covered with cloth, never gazed on them directly with their eyes. Oh yeah, and some of them were excommed’…and that’s good enough?

Yeah, OK, right…buy the bridge Rebecca is selling.

 

[why_me]

hmmmm let’s see here.

4 witnesses, who wrote extensively about what they saw, heard, learned, etc. Never excommed,’, and never recanted.

But that’s not good enough……:whacky:

11 people who saw “gold plates” covered with cloth, never gazed on them directly with their eyes. Oh yeah, and some of them were excommed’…and that’s good enough?

Yeah, OK, right…buy the bridge Rebecca is selling.

Oh my gosh…am I back to this again? I thought I took care of this already with Melanie. All 11 witnesses saw the plates. And 8 of the witnesses actually handled the plates and saw the lettering and went through the pages. Here is one account:

There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, “Do you hint at me?” Elder Turley said, “If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.” John replied: “I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them.” Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, “They were shown to me by a supernatural power.”

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

And here is the testimony of the eight witnesses:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Now I know that two weeks later someone will again say the same thing as this poster just did. It is truly amazing and shows that the regular mormon critics just don’t read the mormon posts.

 

[why_me]

hmmmm let’s see here.

4 witnesses, who wrote extensively about what they saw, heard, learned, etc. Never excommed,’, and never recanted.

But that’s not good enough……:whacky:

11 people who saw “gold plates” covered with cloth, never gazed on them directly with their eyes. Oh yeah, and some of them were excommed’…and that’s good enough?

Yeah, OK, right…buy the bridge Rebecca is selling.

And regardless what I just posted in my previous post, you will again repeat this claim because you need to repeat your claim to foster your belief system.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My bridge is still for sale.

 

[Dchsknight]

Oh my gosh…am I back to this again? I thought I took care of this already with Melanie. All 11 witnesses saw the plates. And 8 of the witnesses actually handled the plates and saw the lettering and went through the pages. Here is one account:

There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, “Do you hint at me?” Elder Turley said, “If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.” John replied: “I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them.” Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, “They were shown to me by a supernatural power.”

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

And here is the testimony of the eight witnesses:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Now I know that two weeks later someone will again say the same thing as this poster just did. It is truly amazing and shows that the regular mormon critics just don’t read the mormon posts.

All brothers, in two families, except for one. That in a court of law would never stand. They actually discredit each other by giving the same story. NO 11 men completely agree on something with the same story. THAT constitutes a lie.

But In the Bible the only true and credible account of Jesus, 4 men who give account all sharing different experiences with the same person, because they all different men. They are all different accounts because they come from different back grounds, different ages, Different jobs. All of their accounts compliment each other, and never contradict. They are different because Jesus treated them different. John was the only one at teh crucifixion so he has a different side to share, Matthew is a tax collector and has a different observation then anyone else and is very exact with numbers. Luke was a Law maker and his account of the times were Jesus broke the Jewish Law and showed them what the law meant is so stinking accurate it would a jew blush on how much he knew about the law, and Mark was the young ruler, He was a business man, Short sweet and to the point no frills, no side games. All four accounts compliment each other and never contradict, but they are all different.

NO 11 men can completely agree on the same thing with the same story. IT is not possible not with collaboration and lies. So says the entire history of the planet. MALES do not get along that well. No man see EXACTLY eye to eye with any other man. It is not in a Males nature to do so. So when 11 Men give the same account and agree completely, something is fishy, someone is lying.