Questions for "Naturalized" Eastern Catholics

[a_pilgrim]

This thread is prompted by a recent conversation I had with a Byzantine Catholic priest/friend of mine…

As a cradle Byzantine Catholic, I grew up in a Church environment that is considerably different from today’s. Most notable among these changes is the absence of the use of any Old Church Slavonic within our current worship, the “mother tongue” of our Byzantine Catholic Church’s liturgical praxis (much like Latin is the “mother tongue” of the Roman Catholic Church).

In lamenting the apparent demise of Old Church Slavonic during a conversation with my priest friend, he commented to me that he had enrolled four new families in his parish within the last four weeks. He was confident, he said, that none of these families would have enrolled in his parish had they been exposed to Old Church Slavonic in the liturgical setting, feeling obviously somehow excluded on an ethnic basis.

So, then… to you English-speaking folks from varying ethnic backgrounds who joined (or are considering joining) Eastern Catholic communities, I ask:

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?
2. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?
3. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?
4. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?
5. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

No agenda here on my part (besides, I’ve already stated my own views in the third paragraph above)… it’s just that I was truly surprised by my priest friend’s assessment of the effect that Old Church Slavonic could have on converts, and I wonder how accurate his assessment is.

Any additional comments or thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. Thanks for your help, folks!

 

[bpbasilphx]

In my experience as an Orthodox cantoir and choir director, I’ve used English, Greek, Slavonic, Ukrainian, Arabic, Albanian, and Spanish.

For the Divine Liturgy itself, the language doesn’t really matter to me.

But for the Office, obviously, I prefer English, at least for the Propers.

 

[MoreThan1Hat]

OK, here goes, FWIW:

1. Our Divine Liturgies are celebrated in English. This is, on a scale of 1 to 10, about a 1 in importance to me. When I became an Eastern Catholic we were still in the old pew books which had the English and Slavonic side by side. So I would have gotten it by osmosis, if nothing else.

2.Usually at the end of the Divine Liturgy we take a second repetition of “Many Years” in Slavonic. And at the All Souls Saturdays we alternate the “Lord, have mercy” with “Hospodi pomiluj”

3.No, the fact that I didn’t know Church Slavonic from secular Norwegian wouldn’t have made any difference at all to me, I would have joined anyway.

1. On the contrary, when the liturgy (or parts of same) are sung in Church Slavonic, I feel, as a worshipping member of the parish, more connected to those who have worshipped there in years past when the service was exclusively in that language.
2. Although I cannot read Cyrillic script at all, I am trying to learn by memory some of the hymns etc. on my own in Slavonic (by stumbling through them at home)…so yes, I do wish to learn the liturgical language of my Church. It would be very nice for my parish to have a Slavonic DL occasionally, I would enthusiastically support this.

In addition, I have only this to add: just as the more traditional Roman Catholics make an effort to teach their children (and themselves to learn) prayers in Latin, as that is the timeless liturgical tongue of that Church, I feel that to abandon Church Slavonic entirely is an amputation, so to speak, of the spiritual heritage from which the Ruthenian Church comes, and in some way a denial of the prayers and sufferings of those immigrants who brought our Church to America.

And that is my :twocents:

 

[catherineajt]

I’m a cradle Roman Catholic, converted to Orthodoxy, now returning to the Catholic church via the Byzantine Catholic Church. There’s my background, here’s my answers:

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?

Very important. I do like hearing the Slavonic (for instance, when the priest declares “Slava Isusu Christu”, but I wouldn’t be able to follow the Liturgy if it were in Slavonic.

1. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?

No.

1. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?

I might have–my husband would have had a difficult time with it, though.

1. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed? Doesn’t apply to me, but my husband has attended Latin Masses and felt excluded because he couldn’t figure out what was going on. Language was one of the reasons we joined an Orthodox church in the OCA and not a Greek Orthodox church; we didn’t want to be lost in the Liturgy.
2. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English? I am interested in learning some Slavonic, because i think it is a beautiful language and I have some ancestral ties to the region, but I am happy with an English Liturgy. Traditionally, liturgies were said in the “language of the people” and if the people speak English as their primary language, isn’t that the language of the people?

 

[mgy100]

The usage of Slavonic is trivial. People make a bigger deal out of this issue than it really is.
Most of the Catholic/Orthodox parishes here still use Slavonic… but not much.
Some hymns are sang in Slavonic. Usually the Thrice Holy Hymn, the Ize Cheruvimy (Cherubic Hymn). Sometimes many the Tebe Pojem, the We praise Thee. Maybe part of the Anafora, depends.
Sometimes the Lord’s Prayer.
That is not a lot of Slavonic. I’d say the standard use would be just the Thrice Holy Hymn and the Cherubic Hymn. Even at that the second part of the Ize is sometimes sang in English.

That hardly drives people off. I think the real issue is that since many people have moved away from the areas where our parishes once were packed people look to simple answers of scape goats for the reason the membership has declined.
Often this witch hunt finds Slavonic and then burns it at the stake.

Go to say, Paschal matins to a Carpatho tradition parish, UGGC, Ruthenian Catholic or ACROD. where the congregation sings everything lead by a cantor.
When the Slavonic parts are sung the roof almost gets blasted off, then when you sing the same thing in English you’ll see the difference. The Slavonic is a part of the shared history, it connects people to their worship.

The point is you can not and will not simply pack the pews by banning Slavonic (which in most parishes outside of ROCOR is minimally used anyway). And most of the Churches that use Slavonic use English primarily.

Evangelize, make an effort. But that takes work you see. It’s easier to rob the people of Slavonic thinking it’ll make people beat the door down to join the parish and it doesn’t take any effort in erasing the use of Slavonic.
Fact is, if you want to pack your parish it takes work and effort to preach Christ to the nations. I think that should be the focus not wiping out the remnants of Slavonic that are still in use.

 

[Formosus]

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?
   Well its nice to be able to understand what is being heard, but its not all important.
2. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?
   I experiance Syriac at every Qurbono and Arabic is usually mixed in with the english at times.
3. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?
   I can not say for sure, probably not.
4. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?
   Not as long as its transliterated so that I can at least say what is being said/sung even if I can not understand it.
5. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?
   I would love to learn arabic and Syriac. It looks like a very daunting task though.

 

[JoanOfArc]

I don’t participate on this board because it is often too contentious for me. I don’t want to debate. I’m offering my experiences for what they are.

So, then… to you English-speaking folks from varying ethnic backgrounds who joined (or are considering joining) Eastern Catholic communities, I ask:

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?

Having a parish where English is the predominate language is very important to me.

1. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?

Yes.

1. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?

If I had another choice which had more English, I would go there. It is a heavy burden for me. I don’t mind a little of another language like in hymns during communion or on special feasts. I don’t mind the Lord have mercies or doing the important prayers in English and another language. More than that is too much for me and most people I know can’t tolerate that much.

1. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?

Yes.

1. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

I want to learn it because I feel excluded. I would rather they use English. Almost everyone there speaks English fluently and few are immigrants. Most of the children of immigrants want English. All of their spouses and children want English and many of them go to the Roman church for that reason. It is a group of non-ethnic people who throw a fit and want it “authentic” who keep it ethnic. It has driven off many people who should be there and many more I know of won’t consider the church at all because of the use of a foreign language. I agree with your priest.

 

[Aramis]

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?
2. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?
3. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?
4. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?
5. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

No agenda here on my part (besides, I’ve already stated my own views in the third paragraph above)… it’s just that I was truly surprised by my priest friend’s assessment of the effect that Old Church Slavonic could have on converts, and I wonder how accurate his assessment is.

Any additional comments or thoughts on this issue would be appreciated. Thanks for your help, folks!

1: English propers & readings: 7/10
Rest: 5/10 (10/10 that english be done at least once a month.)

2: Old Church Slavonic

3: n/a. However, as an aside, Slavonic was important in my coming over.

4: Not very; I am no longer conversational in Russian, but I can still get the gist of it. (Far easier than liturgical latin!)

5: Id like to see more slavonic used.

 

[a_pilgrim]

My thanks to all who responded so far.

Not wanting to trust my feeble memory, I went back and checked my e-mail correspondence with the priest friend of mine. In the interest of accuracy, I must report that it was three families in three weeks that he enrolled as parishioners, not the four families in four weeks that I referenced in post #1.

Boy, it’s tough gettin’ old! Y’know, they say that there are three sure signs that you’re getting old: First, your memory starts to fail…

…and I can’t remember the other two!

 

[Allyson]

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?
2. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?
3. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?
4. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?
5. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

I will just try to answer the above with one answer. I translated into the Ruthenian Rite at a Parish which used mostly English, but always do verses of hyms in OCS, and one Sunday a month they do parts of the Divine Liturgy like the Holy God in OCS. I love the use of it in the Liturgy, and would like it if my new parish used it more than they do (I have moved). English was important because it gave me access to the text of the Liturgy, and allowed me to enter into the Liturgies of Sts. John Chyrsostom and Basil in a way I would not have been able to otherwise. I was able to understand the depth of the imagery present in the liturgy. That said, I don’t think I am alone amoung English speakers in wanting the continued presence of OCS. I could even handle the whole Liturgy in OCS. I know what I am saying, even if I have learned the language. I would like to learn it someday… Its presence was not an impediment for me. Even more OCS would not have been a problem for me either.

On a side note, the old pew books from before the new RDL, were much easier to use. Having the melody of every chant laid out is not necessary unless you are the cantor, etc. The less I have to flip pages during the liturgy, the easier it is for me to find the changing parts. I no longer use the pew books, which is very disappointing for me. The books were smaller and had side by side English with Old Church Slavonic (OCS,) which was great. To return this to the original topic, the presence of the English with the OCS made it possible to follow what was going on when OCS was being used. My old parish was still using the old books the last time I was there. I don’t think they like that the new books do not have the OCS in them.

God Bless,
R.

 

[Allyson]

I will add that myself and one of my friends at school, both of us more disposed to sing in general, went head and sang in OCS anyway. We enjoyed it a lot. We also asked the cantor for assistance with pronunciation help with the transliterated text.

 

[mgy100]

I will add that myself and one of my friends at school, both of us more disposed to sing in general, went head and sang in OCS anyway. We enjoyed it a lot. We also asked the cantor for assistance with pronunciation help with the transliterated text.

Some people call this Latinica, when the Church Slavonic is not written in the Cyrillic.
My Ukrainian friends say, “that’s written in the Slovak alphabet.”

A parish that has a history of Slavonic usage should not have to completely change their time honored traditions just because visitors or newer people don’t like the time honored traditions of the parish.
Respect what came before you and respect the people that have built and maintained a parish. It is quite rude to walk in and want to change a parish’s long standing tradition because you simply feel it should be the way you want it.
Remember most of the parishes we are speaking of use barely any Church Slavonic at all.
If you are dead set against a little Slavonic being used then I urge you to spend a weekend in a Russian Orthodox parish.
Then go back to your parish and you’ll understand what I mean, in many of the ROCOR parishes they use almost ALL Slavonic.
Go back and compare it to the Svaty Boze and the Ize that are sung in your parish and you’ll realise that most of the Slavonic in your parish has already been stolen away.
I love Slavonic, it’s part of our heritage and time honored traditions. I wouldn’t give it up for anything. Even if it is just part of the liturgy or singing the Festal tropars and what not in Slavonic.

 

[Allyson]

Some people call this Latinica, when the Church Slavonic is not written in the Cyrillic.
My Ukrainian friends say, “that’s written in the Slovak alphabet.”

Interesting, I have never heard that term before. I used ‘transliterated,’ because its the technical term for when you use Roman (Latin) letters for the phonetically equivalent spellings. I would like to learn Cyrillic letters. It is not really that hard to learn a new alphabet. I already know Classical Greek (which is a parent alphabet I believe), although I am very rusty.

I agree that a traditional language should not be pushed aside to make things easier for people, but having access to the liturgy in English, even just to read it is very useful. Having sung in Old Church Slavonic for a few years now, I find that it comes far more naturally with very little time. Someday I’ll learn the language, I hope, when I have time.

God Bless,
R.

 

[LakaYaRabb]

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?

English is my first language. I prefer a Sacral English mostly. We also use Arabic and Greek, but little. 95% of the people at the Parish I attend speak Arabic as a first language. However, all but a few also speak English. The Tradition of the Church is to Evangelize people in thier own language. Ironically, that was the reason for Old Slavonic.

1. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?

Yes. Arabic and Greek. In some places, Spanish. Also, I used to attend parishes semi-regularly that used Old Slavonic.

1. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?

Tough to answer. I am an Eastern Christian in Spirituality. That is what drew me in. If you can learn the Theology, you can learn the language, whatever it is.

1. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?

No and No.

1. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

I already have. Qudduson…Agios… However, this is a complex question. The Ruthenian Church has largely squashed out the ethnic nature of its Church. With many other Eastern Christians, this is not so. In the Melkite Church, people who do not know Arabic are in the minority.

 

[wjp984]

I have different experiences as a cradle Byzantine Catholic. The changes I see are the reversion back to the Eastern ways and theology and for me, as a Latinized Byzantine Catholic, it is all very foreign to me. I mainly go to the Roman Rite mass now since for one, it is a lot more convenient since I don’t have to drive more than a couple minutes and two, I am just more comfortable with the Roman Rite and there are more people my age in it so I don’t get anything out of the Byzantine rite since it is too small and I don’t understand its theology.

In regards to the Slovanic, it is too hard to pronounce and I never would pariticipate when they would say a couple phrases in Slovanic anyways since I had no clue how to say it.

 

[GladCatholic]

1. Assuming that the language of worship in your current or anticipated EC parish is English, how important is this to you?

One Liturgy is in English (11 a.m.) and the other Liturgy is in Ukrainian, with the choir (9 a.m.–also I think maybe the hymns are Church Slavonic as opposed to Ukrainian–for some reason I think I hear certain words slightly different from the Ukrainian) Having the liturgy in English is not as important to me as it is to my family when they attend with me.

1. Were you or are you currently exposed to any liturgical language other than English with regard to your EC parish?

Maybe 7 out of 8 Sundays I go to only the Ukrainian liturgy…if family joins, rarely, we usually go to the English.

1. If you were/are not exposed to a liturgical language other than English, would you have reconsidered joining if you had been?

First time I attended the liturgy, I went in to the English. After that, I regularly attended the Ukrainian. The Liturgy in English lacks the ethnic qualities (don’t ask me to define that because there are quite a few little things, but one other big thing is the choir which isn’t there during the English) that definitely enhance the liturgy.

1. If you were/are exposed to a liturgical language other than English, do you feel excluded during those instances in which it is employed?

The entire liturgy is in a foreign tongue. I don’t feel too excluded and by now, I’m familiar with the liturgy from having bought one of the pew books and know enough of the pronunciations to be able to participate and know what I’m saying.

1. Do you have any desire at all to learn some of the “mother tongue” of your (new) EC Church and use it as part of your liturgical participation, or would you rather keep everything in English?

I taught myself the Cyrillic (Ukrainian) alphabet and have been learning to read, so now I’m able fairly often to participate in the longer prayers (which are nearly all sung and very slowly and repetitively). I’m getting better with the more common greetings and hopefully, someday, I’ll locate a Ukrainian tutor in my area.

Honestly, I’m not sure I’d have continued going had I only had the English liturgy available. I also love the Greek Orthodox liturgy (in Greek). There is something very attractive about a liturgy done in the tongue of the culture/community of the respective church.

GC

 

[Allyson]

I have different experiences as a cradle Byzantine Catholic. The changes I see are the reversion back to the Eastern ways and theology and for me, as a Latinized Byzantine Catholic, it is all very foreign to me. I mainly go to the Roman Rite mass now since for one, it is a lot more convenient since I don’t have to drive more than a couple minutes and two, I am just more comfortable with the Roman Rite and there are more people my age in it so I don’t get anything out of the Byzantine rite since it is too small and I don’t understand its theology.

In regards to the Slovanic, it is too hard to pronounce and I never would pariticipate when they would say a couple phrases in Slovanic anyways since I had no clue how to say it.

(Not to go off topic, but…)

Interesting, I am a cradle Roman Catholic (now translated into the Byzantine Rite), and the more time I spent going to Divine Liturgy, the more foreign the Novus Ordo seemed to me. This was after ~23 1/2 years of going to the Novus Ordo regularly before I started going to the Byzantine Rite on a semi-regular basis Sundays. It was both the parish I attended and the theology of the spirituality and the liturgy which drew me in.

Yes the Slovanic is odd to say at first, but my parish had many speakers to help with the odd phrase (the cantor was first generation born in America), so I soon picked it up, especially hearing it every Sunday.

That said, I think that it is important that you have a place provides for your spiritual needs as you see them. Best of luck!

God Bless,
R.

 

[eulogos]

I have attended a Ruthenian rite parish for more than two years now. Actually two parishes with the same priest, depending on which time for liturgy is the most convenient. When the old pew books were in use I was very happy when they chanted parts in Slavonic as I could follow in the book and sing along from the transliterations. I thought it was wonderful to get a chance to learn bits of a new language.

However now that it is not in the book, they still do it almost as much, and now I have no way to follow itl Some things I memorized-if they had had the old pew books for a few more years I would have memorized all the important parts but they changed too soon for me.

I think that if they are going to sing hymns and parts of the liturgy in Slavonic they ought to have transliterations available. When the service starts and the choir starts singing a hymn and everyone joins in…but me because I don’t know it, I do feel left out. There should be a hymn book and the hymns should be announced. It should be decided ahead of time what parts of the liturgy are going to be in Slavonic and this should be in the bulletin, and the side by side English and Slavonic translations for those parts should be in the pews.

The people there do sing louder when Slavonic is used. I think they have a right to their traditional language. All I want is help in joining in. I would even be willing to attend an all Slavonic liturgy once a month, as long as there was a side by side book to follow along in.

Whether I would have joined if the side by side pew book was not there…well I was pretty desperate for a beautiful and reverent liturgy. So I might have. But having it there certainly made the transition easier.

Susan Peterson

 

[holdencaulfield]

I like things I can’t understand. No sarcasm really I think it’s neat.

 

[Ungcsertez]

The usage of Slavonic is trivial. People make a bigger deal out of this issue than it really is.
Most of the Catholic/Orthodox parishes here still use Slavonic… but not much.
Some hymns are sang in Slavonic. Usually the Thrice Holy Hymn, the Ize Cheruvimy (Cherubic Hymn). Sometimes many the Tebe Pojem, the We praise Thee. Maybe part of the Anafora, depends.
Sometimes the Lord’s Prayer.
That is not a lot of Slavonic. I’d say the standard use would be just the Thrice Holy Hymn and the Cherubic Hymn. Even at that the second part of the Ize is sometimes sang in English.

That hardly drives people off. I think the real issue is that since many people have moved away from the areas where our parishes once were packed people look to simple answers of scape goats for the reason the membership has declined.
Often this witch hunt finds Slavonic and then burns it at the stake.

Go to say, Paschal matins to a Carpatho tradition parish, UGGC, Ruthenian Catholic or ACROD. where the congregation sings everything lead by a cantor.
When the Slavonic parts are sung the roof almost gets blasted off, then when you sing the same thing in English you’ll see the difference. The Slavonic is a part of the shared history, it connects people to their worship.

The point is you can not and will not simply pack the pews by banning Slavonic (which in most parishes outside of ROCOR is minimally used anyway). And most of the Churches that use Slavonic use English primarily.

Evangelize, make an effort. But that takes work you see. It’s easier to rob the people of Slavonic thinking it’ll make people beat the door down to join the parish and it doesn’t take any effort in erasing the use of Slavonic.
Fact is, if you want to pack your parish it takes work and effort to preach Christ to the nations. I think that should be the focus not wiping out the remnants of Slavonic that are still in use.

The “Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church” has forced many parishes to abondon the use of Church Slavonic. I just attended a small parish that use to use a lot of Slavonic. It was the 4th Paschal Sunday and I’d thought I would attend to hear the traditional amount of Church Slavonic. Instead of Church Slavonic, it was 95% RDL English with only a token use of Church Slavonic. When the priest intoned “Christ is Risen” before and after Communion, the cantors didn’t sing “Christ is Risen”. To top it off, they ended the liturgy with a Marian hymn instead of the numerous Paschal hymns that are usually sung. Needless to say the elderly parishioners aren’t happy with this situation, but what can they do? No, the Ruthenian Metropolia is trying put an end to the use of Slavonic, and that is a shame.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese! (oh wait, it’s no longer Bright Week, so I’d better just say Christos po sredi nas!)

U-C