Questions for our Orthodox brethren

[Sonny89]

Peace & all good from England!

Last year I took a course on Iconoclasm and the Rise of Islam & how they affected the Church (looked at John of Damascus & one or two o. This got me very interested in the Orthodox Church, which I’m very sorry to say I know little about. I just have a few Questions about Orthodox Christianity which I hope will help fix this. Unfortunately do to the pressure of finals and various other things I haven’t had much time to look beyond the specified areas of the course . If any (or all) of the questions are answered in other threads/forums & I’ve managed to miss them while browsing please just redirect me-I don’t want to unduly take up anyone’s time

I Gather that from my reading thar Roman Catholics & Orthodox Christians differ in their views of the Holy Spirit (Catholics having "filioque in the creed in relation to the HS procession from both the Father & the Son). What do Orthodox Christians believe about the Holy Spirit & how is it Different to RC beliefs?

Since the Orthodox Christians not in Communion with Rome (as opposed to what I think are known as Eastern Catholic Churches?) is there a “first among equals” system when it comes to authority?

How/where is Orthodox Mariology different from that held by the RCC?

Can anyone reccomend any good literature on the Orthodox Liturgy or the topics mentioned above?

I appreciate the basic nature of my questions but I hope your answers will help remedy my lack of knowledge regarding Orthodoxy. The couse I took lat year was rather narrow in scope & it was a tough year on a personal level as well which meant that I have been unable to research as much as I would have liked.

Thanks a lot for your time

God Bless

Sonny

 

[Cavaradossi]

Peace & all good from England!

Last year I took a course on Iconoclasm and the Rise of Islam & how they affected the Church (looked at John of Damascus & one or two o. This got me very interested in the Orthodox Church, which I’m very sorry to say I know little about. I just have a few Questions about Orthodox Christianity which I hope will help fix this. Unfortunately do to the pressure of finals and various other things I haven’t had much time to look beyond the specified areas of the course . If any (or all) of the questions are answered in other threads/forums & I’ve managed to miss them while browsing please just redirect me-I don’t want to unduly take up anyone’s time

Many of these questions have been answered elsewhere, but I don’t think anybody can fault you for being unable to find them, because there’s a lot of useless bickering which pops up in threads about Orthodoxy (I’m willing to bet that this will probably also happen in this thread).

I Gather that from my reading thar Roman Catholics & Orthodox Christians differ in their views of the Holy Spirit (Catholics having "filioque in the creed in relation to the HS procession from both the Father & the Son). What do Orthodox Christians believe about the Holy Spirit & how is it Different to RC beliefs?

It’s actually a bit more than a difference in how they view the Holy Spirit because there’s also a fundamental difference between how the two sides understand the Holy Trinity. The Catholics approach the Trinity starting from the essence and going to the persons; the Orthodox typically approach from the other direction. In the Eastern view of the Trinity, the Father is the sole cause of the Holy Trinity (a concept known as the Monarchy of the Father), and it is the relationship (or communion) between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which shows forth their oneness in divinity, which is somewhat different from the typical Western understanding of the trinity, which comes from the perspective that the divine essence is first and that the persons are shown forth from the common essence.

The Holy Spirit in Orthodoxy then, because of the strong insistence of the Father as the only cause for the other persons of the Trinity, can only be properly understood as proceeding from the Father (and optionally through the Son), and never from the Father and the Son. To complicate things further, the word used for “proceed” in the Latin translation of the Creed is procedit which does not correspond completely to the Greek word ἐκπορευόμενον used in the Greek version of the Creed. Eκπορευόμενον has the implication of coming from a cause or source, while procedit does not. So long as the understanding of the verb procedere is understood to mean the Greek verb προϊέναι, then the wording qui ex Patre Filioque procedit is not problematic; however, what makes the Eastern Orthodox suspicious is that sometimes the explanations given for the procession of Holy Spirit by Catholics can sound a lot like the Son is some sort of secondary cause of the Holy Spirit.

Since the Orthodox Christians not in Communion with Rome (as opposed to what I think are known as Eastern Catholic Churches?) is there a “first among equals” system when it comes to authority?

Sort of. Within the Church, we can see that there is historically a system of primacy which works on every level of the Church. First there is the primacy of the metropolitan bishop over the bishops inside of his metropolis (similarly of an archbishop within is archdiocese). Secondly, there is the level of primacy of a patriarch (or some equivalent bishop, as not all leaders of a church will hold the title of patriarch) over his local autocephalous church. Thirdly (and most contentiously), there is the idea of some form of universal primacy which is wielded over the entire Church.

I think where the two sides diverge with their understanding of primacy is that the Roman Catholics understand the primacy of the Pope to be different from the primacy found in other levels of the Church. Similarly, Catholics have an understanding that the papacy is an institution which has a primacy delivered unto it by a divine mandate, so to speak. The Orthodox do not believe either of these positions, and hold that universal primacy is similar in power to the power of other primates, and that it is not a divinely established office. Another major issue is whether universal primacy translates into universal jurisdiction. The Orthodox would say no, while the Catholics would tend to say yes.

 

[Cavaradossi]

How/where is Orthodox Mariology different from that held by the RCC?

Orthodox Mariology is different from Catholic Mariology on several points. The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception. Furthermore, the idea that the Virgin Mary might have been Assumed alive is rejected; while it is not a dogma, the Tradition of the Orthodox Church holds that the Virgin Mary died and was then assumed into heaven (after presumably being resurrected) after three days—this event is known as the Dormition of the Theotokos. The most important point of Mariology for the Orthodox is the title of Theotokos (god-bearer) which was defined as a dogma by the Third Ecumenical Council, held in Ephesus. The title emphasizes the union of the human and divine within Christ, and the Virgin Mary’s special role in bringing God into the world in the flesh. In some ways, all Orthodox Mariology is understood to be Christ-centered (she is, for example, traditionally never depicted without Christ in icons).

Interestingly, the Virgin Mary is mentioned more in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy than in the Catholic Mass. For example, the deacon will say several times per liturgy during some of the litanies:

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

Similarly, the people at one point say the prayer:

It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.

Many of the prayers said by the priest also tend to end with a line similar to this one:

through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Theotokos and ever virgin Mary and of all Your Saints. Amen.

There is also a public service known as a paraklesis in the Orthodox Church, where either the small or great supplicatory canon to the Theotokos is read along with some other hymns and prayers. They are typically done in the two weeks leading up to the Dormition Feast (August 15th), and also in times of distress. Privately, one can pray the Akathist hymn and the two aforementioned canons to the Theotokos as a form of veneration for the Virgin Mary.

Can anyone reccomend any good literature on the Orthodox Liturgy or the topics mentioned above?

Metropolitan Kallistos’ (a.k.a Timothy Ware or Kallistos Ware) book The Orthodox Church is always a good primer on what the Orthodox believe. He doesn’t go very in depth, but it is a good for a basic overview of some of the issues and some of the history. If you are interested in reading about the filioque, you might try picking up Crisis in Byzantium: The Filioque Controversy in the Patriarchate of Gregory II of Cyprus (1283-1289) by Aristeides Papadakis, or the (slightly more expensive) book The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Controversy by A. Edward Siecienski. John Zizioulas’ book Being as Communion is also a good book for understanding how the Cappadocian Fathers understood the Trinity and its relationship to the Church (as a warning, this book is not an easy read). For a book on the issue of primacy (specifically that of Rome) within the Church, I might recommend the book Byzantium and the Roman Primacy by Francis Dvornik. I’m not so sure about liturgical books. All I can say is that the rubrics for the Divine Liturgy may be found online at several searches. Just search for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and some websites with the full rubrics should pop up.

Hope this helps.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Not the original poster, but also interested.

The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception.

Is this a “do not accept” in the sense that the Orthodox believe it to be false,or in the sense of not having reason to necessarily believe it to be true?

Also I seem to remember reading that Catholics are free to believe that Mary did or did not die before being assumed into heaven (not really sure though), so is a case where we have different but compatible beliefs - that is I say A happened and that B may or may not have, and you say B did and A may or may not have - or is there actual conflicting things believed here?

Thanks.

 

[jam070406]

Orthodox Mariology is different from Catholic Mariology on several points. The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception. Furthermore, the idea that the Virgin Mary might have been Assumed alive is rejected; while it is not a dogma, the Tradition of the Orthodox Church holds that the Virgin Mary died and was then assumed into heaven (after presumably being resurrected) after three days—this event is known as the Dormition of the Theotokos. The most important point of Mariology for the Orthodox is the title of Theotokos (god-bearer) which was defined as a dogma by the Third Ecumenical Council, held in Ephesus. The title emphasizes the union of the human and divine within Christ, and the Virgin Mary’s special role in bringing God into the world in the flesh. In some ways, all Orthodox Mariology is understood to be Christ-centered (she is, for example, traditionally never depicted without Christ in icons).

Interestingly, the Virgin Mary is mentioned more in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy than in the Catholic Mass. For example, the deacon will say several times per liturgy during some of the litanies:

Similarly, the people at one point say the prayer:

Many of the prayers said by the priest also tend to end with a line similar to this one:

There is also a public service known as a paraklesis in the Orthodox Church, where either the small or great supplicatory canon to the Theotokos is read along with some other hymns and prayers. They are typically done in the two weeks leading up to the Dormition Feast (August 15th), and also in times of distress. Privately, one can pray the Akathist hymn and the two aforementioned canons to the Theotokos as a form of veneration for the Virgin Mary.

Metropolitan Kallistos’ (a.k.a Timothy Ware or Kallistos Ware) book The Orthodox Church is always a good primer on what the Orthodox believe. He doesn’t go very in depth, but it is a good for a basic overview of some of the issues and some of the history. If you are interested in reading about the filioque, you might try picking up Crisis in Byzantium: The Filioque Controversy in the Patriarchate of Gregory II of Cyprus (1283-1289) by Aristeides Papadakis, or the (slightly more expensive) book The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Controversy by A. Edward Siecienski. John Zizioulas’ book Being as Communion is also a good book for understanding how the Cappadocian Fathers understood the Trinity and its relationship to the Church (as a warning, this book is not an easy read). For a book on the issue of primacy (specifically that of Rome) within the Church, I might recommend the book Byzantium and the Roman Primacy by Francis Dvornik. I’m not so sure about liturgical books. All I can say is that the rubrics for the Divine Liturgy may be found online at several searches. Just search for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and some websites with the full rubrics should pop up.

Hope this helps.

Do Orthodox believe that Mary is an advocate before the judge on our behalf. That devotion to her will obtain graces for us that benefit our salvation?

 

[searn77]

Do Orthodox believe that Mary is an advocate before the judge on our behalf.

I guess you could say she and all of the saints are a sort of advocate before God on our behalf.

That devotion to her will obtain graces for us that benefit our salvation?

As an Orthodox Christian I would rather say that when I pray to the Theotokos, I pray to her out of love for her, and I ask her (and/or would hope for her) to pray to God for me. But from the Orthodox pov, grace isn’t something we can obtain. Grace is the natural energies of God that we as people can experience. Not to be confused with His essence, which we cannot experience. But both His essence and energies are a natural part of God. So to put it in other terms, grace is a part of God, not something He creates and gives. When we experience grace, we are experiencing God himself.

 

[I_Thirst]

Great thread. Subscribing to learn more!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Do Orthodox believe that Mary is an advocate before the judge on our behalf. That devotion to her will obtain graces for us that benefit our salvation?

I don’t think the Orthodox understand it as being some sort of merit or special grace which is gained from praying to the Theotokos. I think the understanding is more that praying to the Theotokos and the saints will benefit us by enjoining them to pray for our salvation (just as asking any man of God to intercede for us might be beneficial unto our salvation; of course, since the Theotokos and the saints have supposedly achieved theosis, their prayers will probably be more efficacious). For example, in the small supplicatory canon to the Theotokos, most of the requests are for salvation and deliverance from afflictions (it is strongly hinted by some of the language used that the afflictions are primarily worldly concerns, but there are also clear petitions for her to pray for God to save us in the eternal sense). The understanding is that she can accomplish these tasks, but only by praying to God for us on our behalf.

And for what it’s worth, I think the supplicatory canon to the guardian angel of one’s life has prayers asking the angel to advocate for us on the day of judgement and to shelter us from demons when we die, but I don’t think one should read too much into how that works, as the language being used is highly poetic. From the Orthodox perspective, if they are to help us on the day of judgment, it will probably be through praying that God will have mercy on us, not through the distribution of graces.

 

[Sonny89]

Peace & all good!

Cavaradossi

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond so well to all of my questions. They, and the answers you provide to questions asked by others have been very helpful for me * are much appreciated

I hope you’ll forgive my ignorance of the Orthodox Christian Faith. I’ve always found that CAF is a great place to remedy a lack of knowledge when it comes to faith matters

I Know what you mean about useless bickering in threads-I’ve also seen it in some forums relating to Protestant beliefs. Hopefully this thread will stay clear as much of such bickering as possible & stick with the informative discussion desired.

My lecturer last year did mention something about difficulties in the Latin rendering of the Creed but sadly in passing. I know it’s not quite the same but because of my knowledge of French & Spanish I’m often asked to do translation work & it can also be quite difficult to capture some concepts when moving between thse languages-it’s nice to know it’s not just me .

I noticed that in all the Icons I saw as part of my course that the Virgin Mary never seemed to be without Christ

Annoyingly, there are no Orthodox Churches within easy reach of my house and public transport around here isn’t really set up for people with disabilities . It would have been nice to experience some of the Liturgy after you described it. Oh well

Thanks again!

 

[Sonny89]

1 Other Question, related to Mariology and the fact that Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception. Is this because of a difference in understanding original sin or for some other reason?

 

[Sonny89]

Not the original poster, but also interested.

Is this a “do not accept” in the sense that the Orthodox believe it to be false,or in the sense of not having reason to necessarily believe it to be true?

Also I seem to remember reading that Catholics are free to believe that Mary did or did not die before being assumed into heaven (not really sure though), so is a case where we have different but compatible beliefs - that is I say A happened and that B may or may not have, and you say B did and A may or may not have - or is there actual conflicting things believed here?

Thanks.

Iron Donkey,

Thanks for posting!! I think you’re right that Catholics are free to believe either of those 2 eventualities regarding the Assumption of the BVM. for example this site suggests that she died "not of bodily infirmity # but is wholly overcome in a rapture of divine love
Her body as well as her soul is taken up into heaven. After her burial the apostles go to the tomb and find only fragrant lilies.Jesus does not permit the sinless body of His Mother to decay in the grave.Corruption of the body is an effect of original sin from which Mary is totally exempted. " rosary-center.org/glorious.htm

Peace & all good!

 

[Hesychios]

… for example this site suggests that she died "not of bodily infirmity # but is wholly overcome in a rapture of divine love

What warrent do they have for making such a statement?

Is it Apostolic?

Is it poetic license?

 

[manualman]

Is this a “do not accept” in the sense that the Orthodox believe it to be false,or in the sense of not having reason to necessarily believe it to be true?

Hopefully somebody better educated in EO theology than me will follow up, but it is my understanding that EO objections to the Immaculate Conception are logically rooted in their objections to how RCs define Original Sin, not because they have any sort of a lesser view of the Blessed Mother.

 

[Hesychios]

Hopefully somebody better educated in EO theology than me will follow up, but it is my understanding that EO objections to the Immaculate Conception are logically rooted in their objections to how RCs define Original Sin, not because they have any sort of a lesser view of the Blessed Mother.

I can agree with this statement as presented.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Sonny,

I appreciate the basic nature of my questions but I hope your answers will help remedy my lack of knowledge regarding Orthodoxy.

Well, here is a problem.

All too often Orthodox and Roman Catholics are asked to explain the differences between us, but in fact the Roman Catholics will often claim that the Orthodox respondents are misrepresenting them, or do not really understand.

Likewise the Orthodox will say the Roman Catholic respondents are misrepresenting them or do not understand.

Then too, the temptation to interject unnecessary commentary is all too great. CAF is not a neutral forum, it has a purpose of introducing inquirers to the Roman Catholic faith, and to hopefully persuade such people to join. Orthodox here, run the risk of being accused of trying to interrupt that process, showing disrespect for the religion of the hosts or even of poaching from the forum membership by proselytizing. The same is true for Roman Catholics on an Orthodox Catholic web forum, they are under the same risk.

It is best (I think) to ask Roman Catholics what they believe, and separately ask Orthodox what they believe, then do your own analysis. This is not to say I think you don’t know what your own church teaches, far from it, I am just making a general statement.

CAF is a good place for someone to ask Roman Catholics what they believe.

Pax et Bonum,

 

[I_Thirst]

Hopefully somebody better educated in EO theology than me will follow up, but it is my understanding that EO objections to the Immaculate Conception are logically rooted in their objections to how RCs define Original Sin, not because they have any sort of a lesser view of the Blessed Mother.

I’d like to know more about how the EO & RC differ in their definitions of Original Sin. Could you explain this or recommend a book, link, etc? Thanks!

 

[Sonny89]

What warrent do they have for making such a statement?

Is it Apostolic?

Is it poetic license?

Hesychios: I’m currently researching these possibilities . I posted it to show an example of Iron Donkey’s assertion that there appeared to be the possibility of differing beliefs about when the BVM was assumed and in case anyone knew or could discover more while I was still searching. When I’ve had an opportunity to obtain definitive answers to your questions I’ll post them . Also, I’m fairly absent minded so I wanted to post the link before I forgot and subsequently referenced a link which I had not originally posted .

Peace & all good

 

[Sonny89]

Hi Sonny, Well, here is a problem.

All too often Orthodox and Roman Catholics are asked to explain the differences between us, but in fact the Roman Catholics will often claim that the Orthodox respondents are misrepresenting them, or do not really understand.

Likewise the Orthodox will say the Roman Catholic respondents are misrepresenting them or do not understand.

Then too, the temptation to interject unnecessary commentary is all too great. CAF is not a neutral forum, it has a purpose of introducing inquirers to the Roman Catholic faith, and to hopefully persuade such people to join. Orthodox here, run the risk of being accused of trying to interrupt that process, showing disrespect for the religion of the hosts or even of poaching from the forum membership by proselytizing. The same is true for Roman Catholics on an Orthodox Catholic web forum, they are under the same risk.

It is best (I think) to ask Roman Catholics what they believe, and separately ask Orthodox what they believe, then do your own analysis. This is not to say I think you don’t know what your own church teaches, far from it, I am just making a general statement.

CAF is a good place for someone to ask Roman Catholics what they believe.

Pax et Bonum,

Thanks for your post Hesychios!! I think my qustions perhaps could have been better phrased along the lines “What do Orthodox Christians believe about…” (Hopng that Orthodox Christian members of CAF would answer). I agree that perhaps, also I should follow your advice and ask Orthodox about their beliefs through different media to avoid confusion or misrepresentation.

If you agree, perhaps I could PM you a very small number of questions (2 or 3 at most) about some Orthodox beliefs.

Peace & all Good!!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks for your post Hesychios!! I think my qustions perhaps could have been better phrased along the lines “What do Orthodox Christians believe about…” (Hopng that Orthodox Christian members of CAF would answer). I agree that perhaps, also I should follow your advice and ask Orthodox about their beliefs through different media to avoid confusion or misrepresentation.

If you agree, perhaps I could PM you a very small number of questions (2 or 3 at most) about some Orthodox beliefs.

Peace & all Good!!

This would be a good medium, remembering your being informed about Orthodoxy from an Orthodox media and not be influenced by any antiCatholic misinformation. From experience Orthodoxy tend to explain their own theolgical understandings at the same time by refuting the authority of the Popes and the magisterium the Catholic church not to mention Church councils.

Here is a list of books from a convert from Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism; Here it from the Horses mouth here;

Jim Lokoudis “Ending the Byzantine Schism”, “Modern Eastern Orthodoxy” and “Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome”.

 

[Sonny89]

Thanks Gabriel of 12! Much appreciated