Questions for Protestants

[NonDenom]

Do any of the Protestants here find the fact that the CC is banning gays in seminary a good thing? Does it appeal to your sense of reality and truth? Have any Protestants here considered becoming Catholic because the Church stands for the truth in spite of the worlds opinion?

I am wondering if some serious non-Catholic Christians will come to the CC since so many prot churches are open to gay leadership. Could we have some sort of migration in the future out of the protestant church into the Catholic Church?

-D

Hi all
I think that it is a good thing that the cc is banning gays from seminary. One of the job’s of a church is to protect it’s people.
Just because a person that is gay isn’t involved in a homosexual relationship doesn’t mean that they will never give into their temptations, that is like giving an alcoholic who no longer drinks a job as a bartender. I would be willing to bet that most kids who were molested are no longer members of the church. I would tell any person that is gay, there are many other places that they could serve the Lord, and if that is truly their desire they should have no problem serving is another capacity.
Thanks

 

[Tietjen]

aria13:

As a Lutheran, and a pretty liberal one at that, I think the ban is harsh and judgemental.

I would disagree. God does not call for His Church to be accepting of immorality. To be honest, I don’t even believe that He expects us (individuals) to not judge situations, sins, temptations, and yes even other sinners. I believe it’s in the manner of how, when and why we judge that makes the difference (see the following text).

aria13:

The new document states “the Church cannot admit to the seminary, or to holy orders those who practice homosexuality; present deep seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called ‘gay culture’.” I want to know just how DEEP those deep seated tendencies go. What person, if they feel that they have been called to the Church, and truly wants to be a priest or nun, yet is gay would actually “confess” this if they know what they truly want to be will be taken away from them?! Could heterosexual tendencies be put in place of homosexual? The document also states, IF a young man, a priestly candidate, hetero- or homosexual, abstains from relations for 3 years, a celibate lifestyle, they can enter the call to the diaconate.

Christ isn’t walking among us on Earth at present. In His place, He left the Church to care for the flock until His return. Therefore, it is the Church’s responsibility to provide guidance to it’s members as Christ would have if He were still among us. You ask, “What person, if they feel that they have been called to the Church, and truly wants to be a priest or nun, yet is gay would actually “confess” this if they know what they truly want to be will be taken away from them?!” While it’s true that the Church does not read the minds and hearts of seminarians, and therefore it is possible that some may lie in order to become clergy, does that mean the Church should abolish it’s criteria for members wishing to enter as clergy? No. Otherwise one could argue that society’s laws should be done away with as well simply because government cannot stop it’s people for smoking dope, shoplifting, rape, etc. Besides, are they REALLY going to “BE” what they profess they want to be if they lied to become a Priest? The fact is, that God DOES know the hearts and minds of each individual. Therefore, man may be lied to but God cannot be. If a man or woman enters the service of the Church under a blanket of a lie, he/she will be discovered by God; if not by man through some sort of evidence which surfaces given time.

aria13:

I also hope that the Church isn’t taking a stand against the gay community and slamming the door in their faces! There are a lot of homosexual people that were raised Catholic. many love their Church like many of you, but just how loving is the Church to them?

Speaking only for myself, I have yet to see a Catholic Priest speak ill of a homosexual. Neither have I heard of a priest who has heard a confession of a homosexual who has confessed his/her sin of homosexuality, suddenly stop the confession and ask the repentant to leave. However, I have heard of some protestant ministers who have done this. The Church simply wants it’s clergy to set an example that is a close to the one in which Christ set as humanly possible. It recognizes that human beings (priests included) have sins that need to be overcome. As for the sin of homosexuality, the Church simply wants this sin not to be an issue still needing to be overcome by it’s clergy. Otherwise, society would say, “the Church accepts the sin of homosexuality” and therefore Christ may also accept it. This of course is not the case.
{CONTINUED BELOW}

 

[Tietjen]

aria13:

There is so much proof now that homosexuality is an abnormality…a GENETIC abnormality. It isn’t a choice. It’s no more of a choice than it was for most of us to be heterosexual.

Many would disagree with you. Many would say that using the “genetic” theory to excuse homosexuality is ridiculous. If nothing else positive can be said about God, one can certainly say that He is a God of order. Everything has a reason within creation. The orbits of planets are precise, mothers have breasts in which to feed their newborns, eyes have tear ducts to wash away impurities which invade, etc. God’s plan for man is spelled out very plainly in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. He made them male and female for a purpose. Man has control over his actions. A human being who has heterosexual tendencies can overcome these and remain celebrant. No one objects to this. Yet, why does society seem to object so profoundly when someone with homosexual tendencies is asked to overcome these and remain celebrant? Where will this line of thinking take us? Today the issue is over homosexuality. Tomorrow will it be over bestiality? When will it stop. Where would you have the church draw it’s line in the sand. Society is ill-equipped to make decisions concerning Church teachings and dogma because society’s morals and political correctness change like the wind. God’s morality is a constant.

aria13:

Like I’ve asked before, if prayer can “cure” this abnomality and make them all “normal,” than start praying for cures for other abnormalities. The Old Testament speaks out against a lot of things, including homosexuality. BUT they also felt women who were barren must have sinned greatly, and cast them out or stoned them to death. Infants, if imperfect, were tossed out. Medical technology was non-existent! Anything that wasn’t “normal” was evil! Like I’ve also said before, on another thread, my youngest brother has Down’s. They would have killed him, and very possibly my mom for having him, in Biblical times. Heck, when he was born people wanted to put him “away.” Thank God education systems, and medical advancements help people understand more now! Maybe, just maybe, in a few hundred years people will accept and quit judging. The Church had to do some backpeddaling on their teachings on suicide and abusive marriages/divorce, maybe they will on this as well.

I beg to differ. The Church hasn’t back peddled, I think you have been misinformed. However, your desire for the Church to pray for cures of all sorts is correct and has been happening since Christ first founded the Church. The Church prays for the sick, as well as for the sins of mankind. And… it will continue to do so.

aria13:

Questions to ask yourselves: Does the gay person down the street from you, or sitting at the next table, really affect your life?

Probably not directly, however if I saw that my neighbor’s house was on fire, wouldn’t I attempt to save him/her? Should I accept that his/her house is on fire and mind my own business? How much more valuable is his/her soul than his/her house?

aria13:

If you found out that your priest or pastor was gay, and he/she had been your pastor/priest for years, would you leave the church? would you force them to leave? Would all the good and holy things they have done, not be good and holy anymore? Would you take communion from them?

No, I wouldn’t leave the Church. I would first approach him on the subject and find out the truth of the matter and what his intentions were. If it turned out that he was a practicing homosexual (thereby violating Church teaching) and intended to remain a Priest, I would speak with the Bishop on the matter. If the situation wasn’t rectified I’d go higher still. God promised that the Church would remain until the end of time. I have faith that at some level, He will take care of the situation. To finish answering your question, yes I would go elsewhere within the Church (another parish perhaps) to attend Mass until the situation was corrected. As for the good which the Priest has done… that is not now and never has been for me to judge or praise. God decides what good has been done and I suspect the He will take into account EVERYTHING.

aria13:

Hope I didn’t offend anyone…just food for thought.

I didn’t take offense and I hope that you didn’t take any offense to my response as well. Take care and God bless.

 

[sainted]

Yeah just like the old saying the musicians have, ‘you can’t satisfy everyone.’ When the church was surrounded with sexual accusations people were singing the church is not doing anything or doing less. Now when the church is doing at least something people are screaming, ’wrong, wrong, wrong.’ I can just imagine how the outcry would turn into laughter if the church declared that it now accepts all homosexual oriented persons unconditionally. I guess the mass would be soon having Mardi Gras in the procession.

 

[maisua]

<<Do any of the Protestants here find the fact that the CC is banning gays in seminary a good thing? Does it appeal to your sense of reality and truth? Have any Protestants here considered becoming Catholic because the Church stands for the truth in spite of the worlds opinion? >>

1. who are protestants? are RCs opposed and protesting this ‘instruction’ protestant? might we otherwise misfits have the courtesy of being addressd by our communal names? …or are we just all …trash? all protestants are not alike & have differing viewpoints.
2. catholic teaching referes to homosexuality as an ‘objective disorder.’ quaint phrase. but, two questions arise:
   –by what standard is homosexuality as an ‘objective disorder.’ ?
   –why does not the Vatican annul the orders of ordained gay priests on the basis of invailidity? Were there not a shortage of RCC priests, what do you suppose would happen?
3. my stupid sense of reality and truth is challenged by our gospel reading for Xt the King. Funny thing, the evil, terrible gays are not mentioned. Maybe I missed something.For the record, my wife and I are married 34 years–and I want at least 34 more years.

That said, I am finding it difficult to reconcile the EXCLUSIVITY of RCC with the inclusiveness of some dude we know as Jesus. We all sin—even celibate ordained heteros. We ordain sinners to the priesthood & they offfer sacrifice on our behalf. Celibate gays ain’t good enough.

Perhaps Pope Benedict should be on a poster with the slogan, " I WANT YOU*
*homosexuals need not apply. Also, this offer does not apply to women…celiacs, and others…as you are not worthy to offer sacrifice.

 

[sea_oat]

Darrel:

Do any of the Protestants here find the fact that the CC is banning gays in seminary a good thing? Does it appeal to your sense of reality and truth? Have any Protestants here considered becoming Catholic because the Church stands for the truth in spite of the worlds opinion?

I am wondering if some serious non-Catholic Christians will come to the CC since so many prot churches are open to gay leadership. Could we have some sort of migration in the future out of the protestant church into the Catholic Church?

-D

I’m a Protestant in RCIA, and yes, it does appeal to my sense of truth. For me, things like this, and the election of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope earlier this year all serve as reassurances that I’m doing the right thing during my deepest moments of doubt.

However, like others have already mentioned, most conservative Protestants still take issue with key theological beliefs, and practices of the Catholic Church, so instead of converting, they will more than likely just distance themselves or break away from the liberals in their denominations.

My dad, for instance, is a very conservative Protestant, and last night, he said, “That new Pope seems to be standin’ up for what’s right.” But he’ll never even think about converting to Catholicism.

Those are just my :twocents:, though. Maybe more Protestants will start coming to see the Catholic Church as a beacon of truth amongst the confusion.

 

[Kristina_P]

Celtic Son:

My personal opinion on the reasonit matters is somewhere inthe Bible does it not say that homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God? I was raised church of God and recently converted also. And the Church of God always spke out against homo preachers.Idontknow what they do now though. But if someone is homosexually oriented and celibate , wouldn’t they still committing this abomination intheir mind? that is my opinion though. I also agree with the earlier post of the RCC should speak out against the porno problem person as well and if you have a problem with porn then not let you inseminary until and if you can stop this behavior.

maybe Ijust expect too much from other people and myself but Ithink we are called to live a Holy life. These are just my opinions,

Are you saying that someone who has homosexual tendencies is completely unable to avoid being “an abomination”? That any attempt on their part to live a holy, celibate life is futile? I hope I’m misinterpreting your statement here.

For my part, I think it makes sense to bar someone with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” from the priesthood, but to call them an abomination is going a bit far. We all “commit abominations” in our mind when we lust or covet or hate or are judgmental. The problem with homosexuality is that it has widespread effects on a person’s psyche and self-identification. I much prefer to look on the “orientation” as a mental illness (as it was considered to be until fairly recently), rather than as a sin in and of itself. As a mental illness, it produces disorder in a man’s mind and heart, and while such a man may still be a good Christian, it is not advisable for him to be a priest. It is not a condition for which there is a reliable cure, but if a man finds himself to be freed from it, there is no rule against him then becoming a priest.

 

[Kristina_P]

**Warning some graphic nature in the post below…. **

No sexual orientation is in regards to whether or not a person is attracted to one particular sex – male or female. Pedophiles are not attracted to the gender of the individual but the youth – much in the same way that a person that commits abomination with animals it matters little as to the sex of the animal and has everything to do with the nature of the animal.

There has been eye dilation tests and flaccidity tests on pedophiles (these tests accurately show sexual attraction.) Time and again these tests are showing that the male pedophiles either are only attracted to youth or are overwhelmingly attracted to youth and women. Rarely do they see that a pedophile displays attraction to both boys and men and in these rare cases they tend to be honest that they are homosexual. Whatever the underlying cause is that leads to sexual orientation it apparently is not related to pedophilia.

Incidentally, when pedophiles describe what is arousing to them in their victims it is usually the submissive feminine qualities still present in young males.

In college I worked with a professor at the South Dakota State Penitentiary studying this and other things – just so you know where I am getting my background of information on the subject.

Are there any published papers on this? I don’t doubt what you’re saying, but I’m interested in the methodology and whether or not the findings have been replicated by other people. I, too, think that it’s faulty to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles or that all pedophiles are homosexuals. From what I understand, though, most of the victims of molestation by priests were young men past the age of puberty. (This is just something I have heard asserted by people I trust to have done their research. I’d appreciate correction if it’s wrong.) At that point, is it more about pedophilia or more about homosexuality?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

<<Do any of the Protestants here find the fact that the CC is banning gays in seminary a good thing? Does it appeal to your sense of reality and truth? Have any Protestants here considered becoming Catholic because the Church stands for the truth in spite of the worlds opinion? >>

1. who are protestants? are RCs opposed and protesting this ‘instruction’ protestant? might we otherwise misfits have the courtesy of being addressd by our communal names? …or are we just all …trash? all protestants are not alike & have differing viewpoints.
2. catholic teaching referes to homosexuality as an ‘objective disorder.’ quaint phrase. but, two questions arise:
   –by what standard is homosexuality as an ‘objective disorder.’ ?
   –why does not the Vatican annul the orders of ordained gay priests on the basis of invailidity? Were there not a shortage of RCC priests, what do you suppose would happen?
3. my stupid sense of reality and truth is challenged by our gospel reading for Xt the King. Funny thing, the evil, terrible gays are not mentioned. Maybe I missed something.For the record, my wife and I are married 34 years–and I want at least 34 more years.

That said, I am finding it difficult to reconcile the EXCLUSIVITY of RCC with the inclusiveness of some dude we know as Jesus. We all sin—even celibate ordained heteros. We ordain sinners to the priesthood & they offfer sacrifice on our behalf. Celibate gays ain’t good enough.

Perhaps Pope Benedict should be on a poster with the slogan, " I WANT YOU*
*homosexuals need not apply. Also, this offer does not apply to women…celiacs, and others…as you are not worthy to offer sacrifice.

1. A protestant is a member of some organization other than the Catholic or Orthodox churches. A Catholic taking a stance against this ruling by Pope Benedict would be a dissenter, but still a Catholic.
2. Yes, according to the book of Genesis God’s design was man and woman, and anything that gets in the way of this natural process is an ‘objective disorder’. The Vatican cannot ‘annul’ a priest’s holy orders because holy orders are a mark on the soul and are there for life even if the person quits being an active priest.

You’re going all over the board here, so I’ll try and answer all your objections. Although it would be nice of you to tone it differently if you would like the same in a response.

1. Women cannot be priests for the simple reason that Christ did not ordain any and because a priest acts “in persona Christe”. A priest’s sole purpose is for the Eucharistic sacrifice, that is, the Mass. Women have their role in the Church, just not as priests, because it is impossible for a woman to become a priest. There were no women present at the Last Supper, just his Apostles. It is unfounded in Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture that women were or ever have been priests. Sacred Tradition, along with the living Magisterium and Sacred Scripture is part of our deposit of faith.
2. Again, it’s very clear that the purpose we were put on this earth for was to procreate. And yes, they are mentioned in the Old Testament as an abomination (not my word’s, God’s, although we love the sinner and hate the sin, and hope they come to repentence.

I find your last remark offensive.

Hope I helped answered some of your questions.

God bless,

 

[sainted]

<<3. my stupid sense of reality and truth is challenged by our gospel reading for Xt the King. Funny thing, the evil, terrible gays are not mentioned. Maybe I missed something.For the record, my wife and I are married 34 years–and I want at least 34 more years.

That said, I am finding it difficult to reconcile the EXCLUSIVITY of RCC with the inclusiveness of some dude we know as Jesus. We all sin—even celibate ordained heteros. We ordain sinners to the priesthood & they offfer sacrifice on our behalf. Celibate gays ain’t good enough.

Perhaps Pope Benedict should be on a poster with the slogan, " I WANT YOU*
*homosexuals need not apply. Also, this offer does not apply to women…celiacs, and others…as you are not worthy to offer sacrifice.

You are generalizing but not everyone is as what you might think. There are those whose lives are overcome by sin and have no sense of sin. There are those who are aware of sin but nevertheless fall into it and later repent. And there are those who recognize sin as it comes and make it a lifetime struggle to resist it for the sake of his/her faith and soul and especially for the Lord.

I grew up with a heart already set on the higher spiritual life i.e. to denounce the world and its splendor but to serve Christ in his ministry as a priest. This desire came to a stop one day when a friend of my family was invited to stay with us for a few days. He was in fact a seminarian on vacation. I’ll fast-forward this story instead of going into detail. I really admired this guy as I looked up to him as someone who has conquered the world and its vanity for Christ. I saw that he was very respectful of my parents and seemed to be a good guy. The first chance he ever got when my parents were not around he started talking weird and dirty and finally begged me if he could perform oral — on me. It was the most disgusting thing I ever heard from another man. I ran out the house and stayed at my friend’s until he was gone 2 days later.

This incident occurred in my late teens and I became so confused and frustrated I never thought of entering the seminary, as I wondered if there were many of the like in seminaries. It really scared the heck out of me and I silently became quiet of my future vocation.

This incident though didn’t make me forsake my church and faith as I always knew I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s the other people who do wrong who should leave the church not me. Now after 15 years my desire to become a priest came back full force when this declaration/ban came out. I have had many friends in my life males/females but family life never appealed to me as my calling. I guess its worth all the wait. I’m planning to finally enter the seminary next year. Don’t be surprised if I’m the next pope – just kidding of course!

 

[Belinda]

O.S. Luke:

I guess I don’t get it… if a priest (or anyone else in religious vocation) accepts a vow of celibacy, what does it matter if they have a homosexual or heterosexual orientation?

As Edwin says, this sends a mixed message and divides an issue that should have only one side.

As a United Methodist, I’m quite familiar with church politics and public relations. This seems to be a knee-jerk reaction on the part of the Catholic Church.

O+

Many people are confused about the meaning of celibacy and because of this, think it doesn’t matter what “orientation” the person is. The reason homosexuality is such an issue for the church is that the priesthood is a nuptial relationship. It is complicated and spiritual but the MAN must relate as a spouse of the Church in the same way that Jesus is the spouse of the Church. Part of the reason we call them Father is that a priest relates as a man, husband, and father (spiritually). When this is understood, the situation of abuse by priests becomes even more horrific. These priests should have been acting as spiritual fathers to the children they abused. They were not celibate men but preditors. Similar problems have arisen in the past with heterosexual priests also who are not prepared for “true celibacy”. I do not explain this very well but there are writings about this that explain it very well. Pope John Paul II wrote the Theology of the Body which is the best explanation that I have found. Hope this helps.

 

[Alfie]

sea oat:

I’m a Protestant in RCIA, and yes, it does appeal to my sense of truth. For me, things like this, and the election of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope earlier this year all serve as reassurances that I’m doing the right thing during my deepest moments of doubt.

However, like others have already mentioned, most conservative Protestants still take issue with key theological beliefs, and practices of the Catholic Church, so instead of converting, they will more than likely just distance themselves or break away from the liberals in their denominations.

My dad, for instance, is a very conservative Protestant, and last night, he said, “That new Pope seems to be standin’ up for what’s right.” But he’ll never even think about converting to Catholicism.

Those are just my :twocents:, though. Maybe more Protestants will start coming to see the Catholic Church as a beacon of truth amongst the confusion.

I would never consider becoming a Catholic. I do not consider the Catholic Church to be the beacon of truth. However there are some aspects of it that I consider to be the truth. For me the Bible is the source of truth and not man-made religion. I belong to a conservative Methodist- Protestant church that preaches the word. It broke away from the United Methodist church when it became liberal.The overwhelming majority of Protestants that belong to a church will never make it to heaven anyway, even if they are in a conservative Protestant church. Very few people want to hear that they are sinners and that they are going to hell unless they repent and turn to Jesus. Most Protestants have a liberal humanistic belief system and are blinded by the truth of the Bible. The only way they can change that belief system is if the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and opens their eyes to the truth of salvation through a personal relationship with Jesus. That is why prayer is so important in getting people saved.

I get the impression that numbers are important to some of the people on this forum when it comes to church membership and salvation. Because the Catholic church has more people that belong to it they think that, that automatically means it is the right church. I also get the feeling that some people feel that merely being a Catholic gets one to heaven.You have a billion Catholics in the world but very few of them will make it to heaven either. The Bible says that the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow.

I am curious to know just exactly what is it that you see in the Catholic church as opposed to a Protestant church? Does it ever occur to you that Satan may be working harder to destroy Protestant churches through liberalism than the Catholic church? I think a lot of Catholicism is deceptive. It just looks as though it is right so the devil has no reason to attack it. He likes it that way.

 

[melbourne_guy]

In san fransisco theres a protestant church thats especially for gays. I saw it on a reality t.v show called 30 days , and a straight protestant was debating with the gay pastor. The straight guy was firing bible veres at her ,and her only defence was “jesus loves every body”. The defence was pretty sad.

 

[onesimplemind]

Alfie:

I am curious to know just exactly what is it that you see in the Catholic church as opposed to a Protestant church? Does it ever occur to you that Satan may be working harder to destroy Protestant churches through liberalism than the Catholic church? I think a lot of Catholicism is deceptive. It just looks as though it is right so the devil has no reason to attack it. He likes it that way.

“Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which strives to maximize liberty.”-Wikipedia

A protestant by nature and namesake, is liberalism in action. Many protestants are divided on many issues because of their individual liberty to interpret the word of God to whatever they feel is the truth. Historically speaking, Luther sought liberty from the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Luther’s followers then sought liberty from his teachings and formed their own denominations. The chain reaction continued form there. Divide and conquer, now thats how the Devil likes it.

Liberals and protesting go hand in hand.

 

[Alfie]

“Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which strives to maximize liberty.”-Wikipedia

A protestant by nature and namesake, is liberalism in action. Many protestants are divided on many issues because of their individual liberty to interpret the word of God to whatever they feel is the truth. Historically speaking, Luther sought liberty from the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Luther’s followers then sought liberty from his teachings and formed their own denominations. The chain reaction continued form there. Divide and conquer, now thats how the Devil likes it.

Liberals and protesting go hand in hand.

Thank God for Protestantism. If it were not for Protestantism there would never have been the United States of America. I believe America was ordained by God. That is another proof that Protestantism is right and Catholicism is wrong. The strength of Protestantism is its many points of view and that is what democracy is based on. We have free-will that is given to us by God and that includes the right for all people to study the Bible and interpret it. There is an old American saying…“from many one”.

 

[onesimplemind]

Alfie:

Thank God for Protestantism. If it were not for Protestantism there would never have been the United States of America. I believe America was ordained by God. That is another proof that Protestantism is right and Catholicism is wrong. The strength of Protestantism is its many points of view and that is what democracy is based on. We have free-will that is given to us by God and that includes the right for all people to study the Bible and interpret it. There is an old American saying…“from many one”.

You speak against liberalism and now you sound like a liberal.

But before I say anything, I happen to like this country alot and I have benefited greatly, but in a world of turmoil, my opinion about the United States is unfortunatley in the minority. But since you want to insert the USA into this…

a. Most of the Founding Fathers were masons. Thomas Jefferson, was a utilitarian and was accused by Protestants for being an atheist. Its because of their leadership and dedication along with the fighting people who were sick of the Protestant King George that we have the USA.

BTW Jefferson is the one who came up with the idea about seperation of church and state (unconstitutional and loved by liberals) so remember that when the ACLU starts throwing lawsuits about the 10 commandments.

b. Why do you think the U.S. government is so stable? Is it because people can interpret the law however they want just like the bible? Or maybe the Supreme Court has authority to interpret the law and prevent chaos.

c. Since the strength of Protestantism is its many points of view, I guess thats why its ok for many Protestant leaders to silently accept Pro-Abortionists, homosexual attacks on the family, and the cultural decay of the media. Some strength there. I guess thats why gays go to protestant churches to marry.

d.I guess you didn’t know that the United States is a republic and not a democracy where you have a tyranny of the majority and essentially mob rule. Do you know what happened to the Greek Cities with their democracy? Easy pickings for the Macedonians.

e. Since you mentioned many points of view, it reminds me of the “diversity” that the ACLU keeps pushing for. Maybe out of diversity, the atheists can remove any mentioning of God from the American system so some of the many points of view won’t be offended.

f. Unlike Protestantism, America has a strong central government which allowed her to become the superpower that she is. If the states could do whatever they wanted contrary to authority, the Confederates (a bunch of protestants) would still be cracking whips over them black folks.

g. And one more thing, if you think the U.S. is great, imagine what the Kingdom of God is like.I can be sure of one thing, with Jesus as King it isnt a democracy and there isn’t many points of view.

Its strange to hear a conservative protestant say that the U.S. is God ordained when many evangelical protestants say that the founders, the structure of Washinton D.C. buildings and streets, the secret societies of the founding fathers up to modern politicians, new world order speak, and other overall conspiracies point to the masons and illuminati. Whats the truth? Or maybe I should look at it like a Protestant. Its really relative to my interpretation.

The strength of the United States of America is not in its diversity unless you are Hillary Clinton,the strength lies in unity. So before you go around saying that Protestantism is better because the U.S. is the best, remember that the structure, unity, authority, and organization of this superpower has more in common with the Catholic Church than the liberal disunity of Protestantism.

Argh when the topic morphs into something about the U.S. I tend to rant too much.

As much as I consider Protestants to be fellow Christians, the divisions are gonna kill us or weaken us greatly. The example of the strength of unity that the United State shows is something that I pray that all Christians will eventually see and attain.

 

[jim1130]

Alfie:

Thank God for Protestantism. If it were not for Protestantism there would never have been the United States of America. I believe America was ordained by God. That is another proof that Protestantism is right and Catholicism is wrong. The strength of Protestantism is its many points of view and that is what democracy is based on. We have free-will that is given to us by God and that includes the right for all people to study the Bible and interpret it. There is an old American saying…“from many one”.

Let us remember what historian Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. said (paraphrase): “Anti-Catholic sentiment is the most deeply rooted bias in America.” Let us also remember that Catholic schools were outlawed in the colonies in the 18th century. Men like Charles Carroll, the only Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence (and the last signer to die), had to study in a Catholic school in France. Although the US Constitution protected religions, states did not universally support this creed. In 1833, the union between Church and State in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was dissolved (up until then, Catholics had to pay for the support of the state’s Protestant Church), New Jersey retained its anti-Catholic Constitution until 1844, and New Hampshire eliminated its “no Catholic may hold public office” matter in 1877. The Tory element in the colonies, mostly associated with the Church of England, evolved in the Federalist Party and worked to assure Protestantism prominence.

John Jay, a Tory who later became Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, created in the State of New York’s Constitution a provision which denied the privilege of citizenship to every foreign-born Catholic unless he would first renounce all allegiance to the pope in matters ecclesiastical. This provision remained in force until 1821. From this Federalist perspective rose, in the early 19th century, nativists, specifically Protestant Americans (who had endorsed the Aliens Act in the late 18th century to eliminate the rights of immigrants, focused their attention toward Catholics). Rising from this Protestant American nativism was the American Party, better know as the Know-Nothing Party with Samuel Morse as its leader.

The nativists complained that the Catholic immigrants were “superstitious, ignorant, and dominated by their priests.” Anti-Catholicism sentiment and the evils of the Popery were promoted mostly from the pulpit. Catholicism was ridiculed and misrepresented. There were riots in Philadelphia (1844) where Catholic churches were burned and Irish Catholic homes burned and hostile demonstrations, attacks, and violence in Providence, RI (1851),and Boston, Wheeling, WV, St. Louis, and Cincinnati (1853). The Know-Nothings (formed from the “American Republicans”, the “Order of United Americans”, “Sons of America”, and “United American Mechanics of the United States” and adopted the title of “National Council of the United States of North America” and among the initiate it was called the “Supreme Order of the Star-spangled Banner”) declare in Article II: “the purpose of the organization to be “to protect every American citizen in the legal and proper exercise of all his civil and religious rights and privileges; to resist the insidious policy of the Church of Rome and all other foreign influence against our republican institutions in all lawful ways; to place in all offices of honor, trust or profit in the gift of the people or by appointment none but Native American Protestant citizens.” Article III declared “that a member must be a native-born citizen, a Protestant either born of Protestant parents or reared under Protestant influence, and not united in marriage with a Roman Catholic. . .no member who has a Roman Catholic wife shall be eligible to office in this order”, etc.

Thankfully, the Know-Nothings split over the slavery issue, but the Klu Klux Klan added anti-Catholicism to their hate list and it carried through into the 20th century. Why was John Kennedy’s religious affiliation big deal in 1960? Why is it a big deal that there are 4 Catholics on the US Supreme Court with a 5th Catholic nominee before the Senate?

To deny the anti-Catholic sentiment that has run rampant in the country, beginning with the Puritans who left England to escape the Romanish trappings, is to ignore that it continues to this day.

 

[sea_oat]

Alfie:

I would never consider becoming a Catholic. I do not consider the Catholic Church to be the beacon of truth. However there are some aspects of it that I consider to be the truth. For me the Bible is the source of truth and not man-made religion. I belong to a conservative Methodist- Protestant church that preaches the word. It broke away from the United Methodist church when it became liberal.The overwhelming majority of Protestants that belong to a church will never make it to heaven anyway, even if they are in a conservative Protestant church. Very few people want to hear that they are sinners and that they are going to hell unless they repent and turn to Jesus. Most Protestants have a liberal humanistic belief system and are blinded by the truth of the Bible. The only way they can change that belief system is if the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and opens their eyes to the truth of salvation through a personal relationship with Jesus. That is why prayer is so important in getting people saved.

I get the impression that numbers are important to some of the people on this forum when it comes to church membership and salvation. Because the Catholic church has more people that belong to it they think that, that automatically means it is the right church. I also get the feeling that some people feel that merely being a Catholic gets one to heaven.You have a billion Catholics in the world but very few of them will make it to heaven either. The Bible says that the road to hell is wide and the road to heaven is narrow.

I am curious to know just exactly what is it that you see in the Catholic church as opposed to a Protestant church? Does it ever occur to you that Satan may be working harder to destroy Protestant churches through liberalism than the Catholic church? I think a lot of Catholicism is deceptive. It just looks as though it is right so the devil has no reason to attack it. He likes it that way.

Alfie

I can assure you that I’m hardly concerned with the numbers or of the popularity of the Catholic Church. Actually, if I had an interest in numbers, I would be disappointed with the Church’s social stances (including the one on homosexuality), since it’s obvious to all of us that the selfish, pleasure-loving society under the guise of “tolerance” we’re living in isn’t happy with them. And if I had an interest in popularity, I wouldn’t be considering Catholicism at all, living in South Carolina, and being from a conservative Protestant family.

Similarly, the fact that Josef Ratzinger was chosen as Pope was a relief, and a matter of joy for me, because he had the courage to speak out against moral relativism, and other societal ills of modernity that are responsible for the erosion of faith, even though he was under fire by many from within and from without the Church for it.

As for what I see in the Catholic Church that I don’t see in Protestantism…I could discuss the specifics all night long, but for starters, the Catholic (or Universal) Church was the first Christian church, and I do believe it was established by Jesus

 

[ChristianWAB]

Darrel:

Do any of the Protestants here find the fact that the CC is banning gays in seminary a good thing? Does it appeal to your sense of reality and truth?..

I think it’s the right thing to do. I would no more want a man in the seminary who was gay than I’d want one who had sex with animals or children.

 

[kylemeko]

Hi Shibboleth, thanks for the reply. I don’t want to get to involved in this topic because it is not the main topic of the thread. But I would like to address some of your points.

Shibboleth:

No sexual orientation is in regards to whether or not a person is attracted to one particular sex – male or female. Pedophiles are not attracted to the gender of the individual but the youth

If this is so then it stands to reason that the pedophile assuming he has same access to both genders would prey on both equally. But this is not the case pedophiles often show a preference for one or the other.

Shibboleth:

Rarely do they see that a pedophile displays attraction to both boys and men and in these rare cases they tend to be honest that they are homosexual.

This matters not as you stated above “sexual orientation is in regards to whether or not a person is attracted to one particular sex – male or female” So if the pedophile is male and he preys on young boys (also male) then he is a homosexual.

Shibboleth:

Incidentally, when pedophiles describe what is arousing to them in their victims it is usually the submissive feminine qualities still present in young males.

This also does not matter. Even in cases of homosexuality between to adult males, one often takes the part of the feminine and the other the masculine.