Questions for the New Mass

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I posted this in a thread that was not mine, so it was kind of off topic and got few replies.

…
CAN SOME ONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND
“Why did we need a New Mass?”…
I am speaking assumptions for most of my thoughts concerning this because i simply dont know…

First of all i am way too young to know what the old mass was. i have never been to one. i have been looking all over the web for info and 99% is anti-NO . One thing i am sure about is that i would never have come back heart and soul into the church if it was in latin (i would bet that Catholic Answers wouldnt exist if the mass in america was not said in english), i was still struggling to follow along in the NO in the beginning. however i am very conservative. i found some translations on line of the old mass and i thought they were amazing (deep,sacred, historical), but i have never heard or seen one in real life. I saw more things like Psalm 42 which i dont see know, why? it like they threw it out or something.

one thing that bothers me now is that the NO seems rushed and simply going through the motions in most masses. yet i read on this thread that the old mass was only about 20min because of the same problem? this seems more like an abuse than a flaw in the design. i think in one way this proves nothing of either one, except that they both can be abused and turned into fast food. both should be good if they are done properly, with the right heart and mind. those who say they didnt understand a word of the old, im with you, but i would love to learn!

a lot of the old timers say that it was a perfect example of Church global unity when the Tri mass was used. this is amazing. when i was reading the latin and english translation i used some of my high school spanish and understood better a lot of the latin before it was translated. and came to the conclusion that english is a lousy language IF you have options.

i feel (key word) that it would be a good idea if they continued to use the NO to teach the Faith and bring in people, but there should be a point at which, when a person is ready to go back to the old version. it seems what the new mass did was bring people in/revive while keeping the others in the back preserving tradition. i dont think one came to abolish the other.
i will say this again the NO is good…but wouldnt it nice to fully understand the old mass . what is it lacking that the NO has when a person fully understands?
Code: 
is this crazy? do i not know what i am asking?
p.s. im not one of those rebels, i accept what the Church teaches/commands. fully understanding why would be even better!
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here is another post in the same old thread that i gave.

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i went to sspx.org and a lot of the stuff made about the old mass made sense to me, at the same time im not going to have anything to do with them. the thing i dont understand is why the Church doesnt abolish the TLM and ex all the rebels, its been what 35 years since V2. you cant stop something if you allow a loophole.

as i said above my interst in this subject came about when i looked into a translation. one listed the TLM and NO side by side . the NO is about 1/2 the other. Its like the head and heart were left but the flesh and bones were removed. why did they throw this stuff out? its like when i was in high school and they would make us read classics out of a literature textbook, the problem is that there would only be select chapters of the classic.
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Fr. Pablo on E.W.T.N. gives a great answer to your concern. He says that the church is like a three legged stool. It is founded on the bible, tradition, and the teaching authority that Christ gave to his church. Take any one away and the stool can not stand. Those who continue to attack V2, refuse to respect the lawful teaching authority of the church.

Deacon Tony SFO
 
Deacon Tony560:
Fr. Pablo on E.W.T.N. gives a great answer to your concern. He says that the church is like a three legged stool. It is founded on the bible, tradition, and the teaching authority that Christ gave to his church. Take any one away and the stool can not stand. Those who continue to attack V2, refuse to respect the lawful teaching authority of the church.

Deacon Tony SFO
Click to expand...
BTW, I watched yesterday’s Mass on EWTN and it was the first time I’d ever seen Fr. Pablo. A fine preacher, and a bit eccentric, isn’t he? 😉
 
Catholic Dude,

If you have a valid (indult) Tridentine Mass in your area, you may want to go to one to see for yourself. Our family goes on Sundays and we love it. We attend St. Agatha’s in south Saint Louis, MO. It is fully supported by Archbishop Burke.

Just to dispel any rumors or thoughts, I attend daily Novus Ordo Mass (or Mass of Paul VI) and do not issues with validity of the NO Mass. You can go to latinliturgy.com/latin_mass_dir.html to get a listing of where the indult Masses are celebrated.

I prefer the Tridentine Mass for it’s deeper reverence, the overall emphasis on the sacrifice, slower pace, and it’s deep call for repentence of our sins. I love kneeling to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion! It’s humbling and sometimes more painful (you spend a lot more time kneeling throughout the Mass than in the NO Mass).

The Latin language issue isn’t a problem for me anymore, as with a little practice, you learn to know how to follow along with the priest in the missal. There are only a few responses you would have to learn, the rest is silent prayer, following along in the book. One would just need to take the time to read the missal and ask a few questions.

Pax tecum,
Marc
 
Hey Dude,

If all possible go and take part in the Latin rite of the mass, when I was young (high school) I did not fully appreciate the TLM, then they made the change, I went to the NO but felt a degree of holiness was not present,for me. I do not see the word perfection of the soul used anymore, but going to the Latin Mass I actually felt it was possible.
It is sublime and the prayers are truly special. Every prayer is taken from scripture except a few added at the end. The reverence and adoration is truly inspiring and I am proud to be a Roman Catholic.

Fogny
 
Deacon Tony560:
Fr. Pablo on E.W.T.N. gives a great answer to your concern. He says that the church is like a three legged stool. It is founded on the bible, tradition, and the teaching authority that Christ gave to his church. Take any one away and the stool can not stand. Those who continue to attack V2, refuse to respect the lawful teaching authority of the church.

Deacon Tony SFO
Click to expand...
I have great respect for Fr. Pablo.

Bible,tradition, and teaching, V2 contradicts tradition does it not??

Fogny
 
Catholic Dude:
here is another post in the same old thread that i gave.

…
i went to sspx.org and a lot of the stuff made about the old mass made sense to me, at the same time im not going to have anything to do with them. the thing i dont understand is why the Church doesnt abolish the TLM and ex all the rebels, its been what 35 years since V2. you cant stop something if you allow a loophole.

…
Click to expand...
The Latin Rite will never disapear and cannot be abolished even by papal decree. That has been well proved if only for 35 years, but as long as we have priests that sacrafice with Christ it shall go on till the end of time.

Fogny
 
I’ve gone to some NO masses (in Latin) and some in English that were more reverent than some Tridentine masses I’ve gone to. I’m thinking of the words of the founder of the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest (an indult order) who said that the mass is like a diamond, it needs to be placed in a good setting for its full beauty to shine forth.

I think the issue is not actually the words of the new mass, which are mostly the same as the words of the old mass, but a rotten dumbed-down translation in English that robs the language of the mass of a lot of its beauty and depth. There are even basic grammatical errors in the translation. You can blame the ICEL committee for that. As a general rule, if you were to compare the Latin text of the new mass, with the English translation, you will notice that the English translation is often noticably shorter. This is usually a warning sign that the translation has been bowdlerized. Example:
the prayer over the gifts for the Second Sunday of Advent:
Code: 
 "Placare, Domine, quaesumus, nostrae precibus humilitatis et
 hostiis, et, ubi nulla suppetunt suffragia meritorum, tuae nobis
 indulgentiae succurre praesidiis."


 Lord, we are nothing without you. As you sustain us with your
 mercy, receive our prayers and offerings.
If you can read or fake your way through the Latin, you realize that what the original text is saying is quite a bit different from the (mis)-translation.
Full text of the article that this example came from here:
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/ENGTRN.TXT

Another interesting link, dealing with the problems of ICEL here:
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0004fea2.asp

The issue of inclusive language is dealt with here:
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9905fea3.asp

We’re still waiting for a new translation that is supposed to come out soon that will correct some of these problems. But, at least in the meantime, we can practice the virtue of patience!😉
 
I personally attend the Indult Mass on most Sundays but also attend the missa normativa during the week. Here’s my blogsite where I am slowly comparing the two editions of the Roman Missal. I’ve also collected some links there that might help:

www.sanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com

Pax,
Keith
 
Deacon Tony560:
Fr. Pablo on E.W.T.N. gives a great answer to your concern. He says that the church is like a three legged stool. It is founded on the bible, tradition, and the teaching authority that Christ gave to his church. Take any one away and the stool can not stand. Those who continue to attack V2, refuse to respect the lawful teaching authority of the church.

Deacon Tony SFO
Click to expand...
Deacon…I agree…but let us also agree that one cannot view Vatican II without Trent.

Besides…I don’t look at the Novus Ordo as being faithful to Vatican II.

Does it fully reflect the Truth’s of the Mass and the Eucharist is treated as the Sum and Summit of our Faith? hardly.
Does it have Latin and Gregorian Chant? its easier to find a pin in a haystack
Does it have polyphany as the standard of musical assistance to worship…doubtful.
With all the writing in the documents of Vatican II in regards to battling the evil of Satan are we praying and invoking St. Michael in the battle against Satan like we used to do? Why not.

Just some curious questions.
 
40.png
Agomemnon:
Besides…I don’t look at the Novus Ordo as being faithful to Vatican II.

Does it fully reflect the Truth’s of the Mass and the Eucharist is treated as the Sum and Summit of our Faith? hardly.
Does it have Latin and Gregorian Chant? its easier to find a pin in a haystack
Does it have polyphany as the standard of musical assistance to worship…doubtful.
With all the writing in the documents of Vatican II in regards to battling the evil of Satan are we praying and invoking St. Michael in the battle against Satan like we used to do? Why not.

Just some curious questions.
Click to expand...
Perhaps a better statement might be: I don’t look at what the NO has become, in many parishes, as being fatithful to what Vatican II might have intended it to be.
 
40.png
MrS:
Perhaps a better statement might be: I don’t look at what the NO has become, in many parishes, as being fatithful to what Vatican II might have intended it to be.
Click to expand...
Has the NO ever been anything BUT a scandal? In America the priests have been denied the Latin Promulgation of the New Mass. And yet it didn’t ‘become’ that…it was made that and the lack of discipline to heretical Bishops like Weakland and Bernadine have left America in the pathetic state it is.

Wayward childrend need discipline.
 
.:
Originally Posted by MrS
Perhaps a better statement might be: I don’t look at what the NO has become, in many parishes, as being fatithful to what Vatican II might have intended it to be.
Click to expand...
First of all as I said above in the opening posts, the NO doesnt seem to be anything unexpected. And in both versions there are abuses.
But where my heart is, is in the way it is celebrated, I had never even heard of the TLM before coming to CA, yet when you compare the texts side by side, its like 2 different things are going on. The systematic, deep, historical, meaningful language, etc, seems to have disappeared in the NO.
Its like when a “new movie” comes out and you liked the plot alot, but you didnt know there was an original version a few decades before…Now when your parents see the “new version” they are in shock at how the classic was deconstructed and “remade” with the lousy acting, butchered script, etc. So you decide to check out the classic. When you see the diffence between then and now you ask, what happened? and from that point on you know there is a REAL reason they are called classics.
I dont know what else to say.
 
Catholic Dude:
First of all as I said above in the opening posts, the NO doesnt seem to be anything unexpected. And in both versions there are abuses.
But where my heart is, is in the way it is celebrated, I had never even heard of the TLM before coming to CA, yet when you compare the texts side by side, its like 2 different things are going on. The systematic, deep, historical, meaningful language, etc, seems to have disappeared in the NO.
Its like when a “new movie” comes out and you liked the plot alot, but you didnt know there was an original version a few decades before…Now when your parents see the “new version” they are in shock at how the classic was deconstructed and “remade” with the lousy acting, butchered script, etc. So you decide to check out the classic. When you see the diffence between then and now you ask, what happened? and from that point on you know there is a REAL reason they are called classics.
I dont know what else to say.
Click to expand...
That’s a rather good analogy. And yes, I prefer the original “classic”.
 
We didnt need the new mass, but it fit in nice with the rest of the confusing, liberal and anti dogmatic documents that came out of the council. How can the Pope tell you that all religions are equal as per the V2 documents, then have you pray at benediction for the conversions of the Moslems from the darkness of Islamism or the Jews, once the chosen people who called down the blood of our Lord upon themselves, to find redemption in our Lord, or the prayer for the consecration/conversion of Russia as is prayed each day as requested in a vision by Pope Pius XI at the end of the Low Mass, when we are told after V2 that the Russian Orthodox are just as good as us, even though our Lady at Fatima asked us to pray for their return. It is all a liberal farce and the more you read and investigate, the more disgusted you get that this can have gone as far as it has.
Catholic Dude:
I posted this in a thread that was not mine, so it was kind of off topic and got few replies.

…
CAN SOME ONE HELP ME UNDERSTAND
“Why did we need a New Mass?”…
I am speaking assumptions for most of my thoughts concerning this because i simply dont know…

First of all i am way too young to know what the old mass was. i have never been to one. i have been looking all over the web for info and 99% is anti-NO . One thing i am sure about is that i would never have come back heart and soul into the church if it was in latin (i would bet that Catholic Answers wouldnt exist if the mass in america was not said in english), i was still struggling to follow along in the NO in the beginning. however i am very conservative. i found some translations on line of the old mass and i thought they were amazing (deep,sacred, historical), but i have never heard or seen one in real life. I saw more things like Psalm 42 which i dont see know, why? it like they threw it out or something.

one thing that bothers me now is that the NO seems rushed and simply going through the motions in most masses. yet i read on this thread that the old mass was only about 20min because of the same problem? this seems more like an abuse than a flaw in the design. i think in one way this proves nothing of either one, except that they both can be abused and turned into fast food. both should be good if they are done properly, with the right heart and mind. those who say they didnt understand a word of the old, im with you, but i would love to learn!

a lot of the old timers say that it was a perfect example of Church global unity when the Tri mass was used. this is amazing. when i was reading the latin and english translation i used some of my high school spanish and understood better a lot of the latin before it was translated. and came to the conclusion that english is a lousy language IF you have options.

i feel (key word) that it would be a good idea if they continued to use the NO to teach the Faith and bring in people, but there should be a point at which, when a person is ready to go back to the old version. it seems what the new mass did was bring people in/revive while keeping the others in the back preserving tradition. i dont think one came to abolish the other.
i will say this again the NO is good…but wouldnt it nice to fully understand the old mass . what is it lacking that the NO has when a person fully understands?

is this crazy? do i not know what i am asking?

p.s. im not one of those rebels, i accept what the Church teaches/commands. fully understanding why would be even better!
…
Click to expand...
 
40.png
MrS:
That’s a rather good analogy. And yes, I prefer the original “classic”.
Click to expand...
Yes that’s what French/European Traditionalists call the TLMass…
THe Classical Immemorial Latin Mass is commonly used to describe the TLM in Europe.

I to prefer the “classic”. Here’s an analogy… Diet Coke or Originial recipe Coke? please understand I am refering to Coke the soft drink not coke the narcotic so as not to be misunderstood by others.
 
40.png
katolik:
Yes that’s what French/European Traditionalists call the TLMass…
THe Classical Immemorial Latin Mass is commonly used to describe the TLM in Europe.

I to prefer the “classic”. Here’s an analogy… Diet Coke or Originial recipe Coke? please understand I am refering to Coke the soft drink not coke the narcotic so as not to be misunderstood by others.
Click to expand...
Actually from what I hear the Original Coke did use Coke in the recipe
 
40.png
katolik:
Yes that’s what French/European Traditionalists call the TLMass…
THe Classical Immemorial Latin Mass is commonly used to describe the TLM in Europe.

I to prefer the “classic”. Here’s an analogy… Diet Coke or Originial recipe Coke? please understand I am refering to Coke the soft drink not coke the narcotic so as not to be misunderstood by others.
Click to expand...
Sorry… Pepsi for me.
 
Catholic Dude:
Actually from what I hear the Original Coke did use Coke in the recipe
Click to expand...
Not to detract from the subject, but yes it did:

snopes.com/cokelore/cocaine.asp

Regarding the Tridentine Mass - I have attended at Blessed Sacrament in KC, KS. Although I’m still somewhat familiar with Latin, it was difficult to follow along - quite different from the NO in Latin. I thought it was a very beautiful and solemn ceremony, and I was struck by the traditional attire of many of the parishoners. Most of the women wore head covers. I believe some even wore veils. It was a refreshing change from the local social places, err parishes.
 
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