Questions for those who do not believe

[TobyLue]

I don’t normally get involved in threads like this so this will probably be my only post…

However, no matter how much research you do you could never prove the existence of any god who is omnipresent throughout the universe.

Has anybody being able to prove the big bang theory of the creation of the universe?
If there was a big bang, what caused it? What was there before the bang? How did that, whatever it was, come to exist in the first place so that it would go “BANG”?

Even if a thousand of years or a million years from now scientists come up with some type of answer that will convince everyone, it will still be a theory and not fact because nobody was there to see it go “BANG” and record it to prove it as fact.

It was mentioned that we are not obligated to love every creature on earth. But are we obligated, and by whom , to love anyone?
It was also said that we should love when we actually feel love… But my question is why?
Why should I care if the ozone is depleted 100 years from now. I’m not gonna be here. Why should I care if a cure for cancer is found and will help others. I don’t suffer from it so why should I care about others. If I feel like it and I’m tired if living why should I not just put a bullet through my head and end it all. So why should I care about others and about the future if there is nothing left after death?

If my faith does not hurt you, why should it bother you that it affects others? Why? Love is stupid then. I should just care about myself. There is no need to care for others.

Why should I care if our present resources are flushed down the toilet. I’m not gonna be here 100 years from now. Why not just enjoy to the fullest my every moment?

Can love be proven? We may see the effects of love, but what is love?

The following question was once posed to my physiology class in high school?
The teacher told us to write just half a page to this question BUT not mention God, nor religion?

Why are we here on earth?

To those that don’t believe, this should be no problem to answer the question?

 

[ralphinal]

And we get to it. Unless I miss my guess your setting up for something like Pascal’s Wager? I’ll pass.

Actually, no, I was not. Pascal’s wager is its own thing, and not my point.

The fact is that we are told by a lot of people a lot of things that we should consider for our own well being. Some of them are nothing more than urban legend passing off as science. However, we cannot discount the intent of those passing the information. Setting aside polemics, if it is possible, as long as I tell you that there is an option you should consider WITHOUT judging your current state (which is where most Christians fail), I have done my job. My question is if you have no concern for my well-being (and my Faith hurts no one), why should an atheist try to sell me on their program?

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not taking your word for it, but frankly this issue doesn’t concern me enough to do the research. Moreover, I don’t trust the CC (since they’re quite good at revisionist history). The CC is interested in self-preservation & retaining its illusion of infallibility, which it will probably do anything to preserve. Any man who truly believes an institution or collection of men can be infallible is a slave in my opinion. No other kinder way to put it … I’m sorry.

If I’m being too harsh for this forum hopefully someone will let me know (I’m really not sure if or when I overreach here). I understand it’s a Catholic forum … but if we’re allowed to speak freely (but politely) then I’m glad to give my unadulterated opinion. If not again hopefully someone can clue me in if my words are too harsh or overly offensive?

I was not offended, but other might be. Who knows? Anyway, this shows more of an anti-Catholic bias than your other posts. Where does this come from? Why the disdain for the Catholic Church?

this is what I’ve come to expect from religious extremists. Do you disagree that all human life is important? What a straw man & shameless emotive tactic. Is this the best you can do? Didn’t Paul say girdle up your loins (inferring everyone should be an effective apologist for the Christian religion). Logic is my strong point (as an fyi); so in the future I recommend you avoid arguments filled with logical fallacy (that is if you fancy yourself an effective apologist).

Logically, is all human life important? Logically, is all human life equal? Logically, are all humans worthy of the same set of rights, known as human rights?

Ummm … OK that’s a ridiculous analogy (gee wiz … don’t you know on average atheists are smarter than religious folks, so might I advise that you should know your audience when you present an argument).

There are some atheists who are smarter than some religious folks. However, there are religious folks who are smarter than most atheists as well. I choose to think that you were showing a bit of sarcasim with this one.

I presented a philosophical argument opining the harm caused by religion (notwithstanding the difficulty quantifying it). I think it can be shown (with in depth research); but for now I concede it’s a theory. However, no matter how much research you do you could never prove the existence of any god who is omnipresent throughout the universe. Can you see the distinction or would you like me to elaborate further?

No need. Now, for every bad thing you can show, what if I can show 100 times as many good ones? Does that matter to you at all?

 

[wcknight]

Gosh, I would think St. Jude’s research hospital is one of the worlds finest in finding cures for childhood diseases.

Our atheist friend would leave Africa and other poor countries to its own devices, how charitable of him. I guess that is one trait that makes a huge difference between them and us, we believe it is our moral obligation to help others, they think it’s every man for himself.

I think our way sounds a whole lot better.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Actually, no, I was not. Pascal’s wager is its own thing, and not my point.

The fact is that we are told by a lot of people a lot of things that we should consider for our own well being. Some of them are nothing more than urban legend passing off as science. However, we cannot discount the intent of those passing the information. Setting aside polemics, if it is possible, as long as I tell you that there is an option you should consider WITHOUT judging your current state (which is where most Christians fail), I have done my job. My question is if you have no concern for my well-being (and my Faith hurts no one), why should an atheist try to sell me on their program?

I dunno. Maybe they do have a concern about your well being?

 

[ralphinal]

I dunno. Maybe they do have a concern about your well being?

And that is what I want to get to! What is the cause of the concern?

 

[pismopal]

Your statement can hardly be supported by the facts. Catholic hospitals are revenue generating institutions (if they weren’t there private hospitals would fill in the void). As far as fostering medicine and science … that’s ridiculous.

As for examples of preventing research … stem cell research just for starters.

The fact is there has been substantial stem cell research and none of it has been promising. Using the term stem cell research is also a polite term for murdered baby stem cells.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

What does it matter to you if I do? According to your views, I am in no danger of damnation or eternal life, so why bother trying to change me? Why even try to spend the time and energy to do so? If my faith hurts no one, what is it to you that I have it?

**Your moderate faith hurts everyone. **

Your moderate religiosity is what the religious fundamentalists hide behind, in their efforts to change laws to suit their beliefs, impose theocracy or destroy our civilization through extreme violence, all in the name of pleasing their imaginary God.

Why bother trying to change you? Why bother trying to heal a mentally ill person and help bring them back to reality?

Because, in these cases, reality is a far better place than the delusions of the mind. The mentally ill and the religious, can be very dangerous to themselves, as well as to others.

 

[Eucharisted]

What does it matter to you if I do? According to your views, I am in no danger of damnation or eternal life, so why bother trying to change me? Why even try to spend the time and energy to do so? If my faith hurts no one, what is it to you that I have it?

Some nonbelievers think we are a deluded people who need a cure and who are being brainwashed to reject science and harm mankind. Other nonebelievers think we are a mass terrorist organization. Still other nonebelievers think we are out to convert everyone, to make the world a Christian world - using force if necessary. A few nonebelieves think we will believe anything and everything, and hence, we can be used by our leaders to get them money, power, fame, etc. And an even smaller amount of nonbelievers think we’re cooky people and deserve to be trolled. The rest of the nonbelievers understand that people have different beliefs, yet look upon religion as an old and odd sort of thing in the world.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Why are we here on earth?

To those that don’t believe, this should be no problem to answer the question?

Your premise is that non-believers must know everything that there is to be known?

If we don’t know something, your suggesting, naturally, is that we must assume that a supernatural God is responsible.

That is absurd and insulting to not only atheists, but to the religious as well.

 

[BareKnuckler]

What does it matter to you if I do? According to your views, I am in no danger of damnation or eternal life, so why bother trying to change me? Why even try to spend the time and energy to do so? If my faith hurts no one, what is it to you that I have it?

Nothing, unless you try to force your beliefs unto me, or anyone of my family, then your a threat.

That’s rather stupid to say, I can be a unbeliever of Jesus, and still believe your in danger of eternal damnation…I don’t, but its possible for an “unbeliever” to believe your going to hell or some sort of punishment for being a “unbeliever” yourself.

I do not try to change you.

I don’t.

Nothin

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I was not offended, but other might be. Who knows? Anyway, this shows more of an anti-Catholic bias than your other posts. Where does this come from? Why the disdain for the Catholic Church?

no particular disdain for the CC … beyond the fact that it puts itself out there as “the standard” for Christianity. So if someone feels religion is something that is generally a negative influence on society (and they’re a member of western society) naturally the CC is the biggest target (shoot center mass … that’s what my drill sgt. taught me ).

Logically, is all human life important? Logically, is all human life equal? Logically, are all humans worthy of the same set of rights, known as human rights?

I define “life” in the way the Anglo-American common law has defined it for centuries. There is an old common law rule called the first breath doctrine. A child must be born and take a breath of air before he or she is considered human. Many jurisdictions no longer follow this old rule (particularly since taking a breath hardly seems like the best standard to quantify life). I at least require fetal viability (as the Supreme Court has ruled in various abortion cases i.e. Casey v. Planned Parenthood of PA). This means a fetus must be viable (or able to live outside the womb, even if through artificial assistance, before it can be considered “life”). This usually occurs in about the fifth month of pregnancy (but perhaps even in the fourth month).

Understand with stem cell research the embryo is never injected with a male sperm, and can NEVER become human life. It is stripped of the mothers DNA and replaced by patients DNA. Then it is fertilized using an artificial method (i.e. chemical or electric stimulation). However, when I say fertilized I do not mean that in the traditional sense (again it is only capable of producing a line of stem cells, not a human being).

Defining this as “life” is IMHO absurd.

There are some atheists who are smarter than some religious folks. However, there are religious folks who are smarter than most atheists as well. I choose to think that you were showing a bit of sarcasim with this one.

fair enough … indeed I was showing a bit of sarcasm (or poor humor).

No need. Now, for every bad thing you can show, what if I can show 100 times as many good ones? Does that matter to you at all?

Those good things you can show don’t require that people believe in a fairy tale. I love many people, though I dislike some people I don’t harp on negativity (since it’s unhealthy psychologically). I donate to plenty of charities (the red cross, boy scouts, just to name a couple). I served my country, community (I’ve been a volunteer ambulance worker for years), I help support my family, help my friends, and generally all the stuff decent people do.

In fact I’m far less screwed up than most deeply religious people. I’m not judgmental, I am slow to anger (patient to a fault), giving with everything I have, and all the things that you would call “Christ like” (though I see few so called Christians actually living up to these ideals). Christianity IMO seems to attract people who are the opposite of Christ. The judgmental, angry, hateful, etc. When I hang out with friends (who I admit mostly think as I do) we rarely talk about Christians (OK we virtually never talk about Christians). However, I bet Christians talk about non-believers a whole bunch. We’re so lost, can’t see through the fog of our depravity, bla bla bla. All of this in the name of what?

It’s you guys who believe there’s little angels flying around the universe, virgin women who give birth (from an embryo spiritually fertilized), snakes who can talk to people (at least in the garden of Eden), God chose a small nomadic tribe of people who have generally hated him throughout their entire history (though god stuck by them, well I guess except for the Holocaust). Yours is a history mired with crusades, inquisitions, burning people at the stake or using oil, etc. Yes … you’re a scary bunch because history bears out how insane religion can be (and still is in many quarters of earth).

Why should sane, well adjusted people look at religion as anything but sheer insanity?

 

[ralphinal]

**Your moderate faith hurts everyone. **

Your moderate religiosity is what the religious fundamentalists hide behind, in their efforts to change laws to suit their beliefs, impose theocracy or destroy our civilization through extreme violence, all in the name of pleasing their imaginary God.

Why bother trying to change you? Why bother trying to heal a mentally ill person and help bring them back to reality?

Because, in these cases, reality is a far better place than the delusions of the mind. The mentally ill and the religious, can be very dangerous to themselves, as well as to others.

So having faith is the same as being mentally ill?

 

[ralphinal]

Nothing, unless you try to force your beliefs unto me, or anyone of my family, then your a threat.

That’s rather stupid to say, I can be a unbeliever of Jesus, and still believe your in danger of eternal damnation…I don’t, but its possible for an “unbeliever” to believe your going to hell or some sort of punishment for being a “unbeliever” yourself.

I do not try to change you.

I don’t.

Nothin

Ok.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

So having faith is the same as being mentally ill?

The moderate and casual religious, no.

Fundamentalists, ultra devout, it’s quite possible.

 

[ralphinal]

no particular disdain for the CC … beyond the fact that it puts itself out there as “the standard” for Christianity. So if someone feels religion is something that is generally a negative influence on society (and they’re a member of western society) naturally the CC is the biggest target (shoot center mass … that’s what my drill sgt. taught me ).

Going backwards, good advice from your drill sargent. And that is also one reason that we are a target. I will point out that almost all forms of Christianity hold themselves up as the best example and “true” form of it.

I define “life” in the way the Anglo-American common law has defined it for centuries. There is an old common law rule called the first breath doctrine. A child must be born and take a breath of air before he or she is considered human. Many jurisdictions no longer follow this old rule (particularly since taking a breath hardly seems like the best standard to quantify life). I at least require fetal viability (as the Supreme Court has ruled in various abortion cases i.e. Casey v. Planned Parenthood of PA). This means a fetus must be viable (or able to live outside the womb, even if through artificial assistance, before it can be considered “life”). This usually occurs in about the fifth month of pregnancy (but perhaps even in the fourth month).

So what is it before? Either it is human or not. Now, from a standpoint of legal rights, it may be fair to say that a person must be able to live. I do have some issues with that as well, but they are unimportant.

Understand with stem cell research the embryo is never injected with a male sperm, and can NEVER become human life. It is stripped of the mothers DNA and replaced by patients DNA. Then it is fertilized using an artificial method (i.e. chemical or electric stimulation). However, when I say fertilized I do not mean that in the traditional sense (again it is only capable of producing a line of stem cells, not a human being).

Defining this as “life” is IMHO absurd.

Would you have the same position if aborted babies are used?

fair enough … indeed I was showing a bit of sarcasm (or poor humor).

Not too poor

Those good things you can show don’t require that people believe in a fairy tale. I love many people, though I dislike some people I don’t harp on negativity (since it’s unhealthy psychologically). I donate to plenty of charities (the red cross, boy scouts, just to name a couple). I served my country, community (I’ve been a volunteer ambulance worker for years), I help support my family, help my friends, and generally all the stuff decent people do.

Good. I am really glad that you do. More people of faith and no faith need to as well.

In fact I’m far less screwed up than most deeply religious people. I’m not judgmental, I am slow to anger (patient to a fault), giving with everything I have, and all the things that you would call “Christ like” (though I see few so called Christians actually living up to these ideals). Christianity IMO seems to attract people who are the opposite of Christ. The judgmental, angry, hateful, etc. When I hang out with friends (who I admit mostly think as I do) we rarely talk about Christians (OK we virtually never talk about Christians). However, I bet Christians talk about non-believers a whole bunch. We’re so lost, can’t see through the fog of our depravity, bla bla bla. All of this in the name of what?

The problem is not with the faith. IT is the fact that they will not embrace it. Back to your military time: if someone half-a**ed the training, what would happen? People do not go all in on their faith, so you get bad examples of it.

It’s you guys who believe there’s little angels flying around the universe, virgin women who give birth (from an embryo spiritually fertilized), snakes who can talk to people (at least in the garden of Eden), God chose a small nomadic tribe of people who have generally hated him throughout their entire history (though god stuck by them, well I guess except for the Holocaust). Yours is a history mired with crusades, inquisitions, burning people at the stake or using oil, etc. Yes … you’re a scary bunch because history bears out how insane religion can be (and still is in many quarters of earth).

And atheism gave us the Soviet Union, modern China, and Cuba. Sorry…

Why should sane, well adjusted people look at religion as anything but sheer insanity?

Because it is not insanity. At least not true Christianity. It may not be something that you can grasp, but it is not as crazy as you want it to be.

 

[TobyLue]

Your premise is that non-believers must know everything that there is to be known?

If we don’t know something, your suggesting, naturally, is that we must assume that a supernatural God is responsible.

Where did I say that non-believers must know everything? It’s the same with non-believers. They want believers to know everything about God and how He works and use scientific formulas that will say “here it is 1+2=2, the same way as this + this= God, so there is our proof."

By the same premise that we believe in a God whose thoughts are higher than us. We believe in faith in a mystery that cannot be solved by human minds in a cajillion years. We believe we have enough proof by simply looking at the world that there is a God. However, that is not enough proof for you. You want God to present himself like a Genie in order for you to believe. And because we cannot command God to reveal Himself totally to you, that is your proof that there is no God.

And besides, what is an insult? And by whose standards is an insult an insult? Why should I care what others think if I’m looking out for my own self?

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Where did I say that non-believers must know everything? It’s the same with non-believers. They want believers to know everything about God and how He works and use scientific formulas that will say “here it is 1+2=2, the same way as this + this= God, so there is our proof."

By the same premise that we believe in a God whose thoughts are higher than us. We believe in faith in a mystery that cannot be solved by human minds in a cajillion years. We believe we have enough proof by simply looking at the world that there is a God. However, that is not enough proof for you. You want God to present himself like a Genie in order for you to believe. And because we cannot command God to reveal Himself totally to you, that is your proof that there is no God.

And besides, what is an insult? And by whose standards is an insult an insult? Why should I care what others think if I’m looking out for my own self?

You would have no choice but to accept and believe that there is a God above your God that I believe in. Your human mind will never be able to comprehend the power of my God that is above your God.

 

[TobyLue]

You would have no choice but to accept and believe that there is a God above your God that I believe in. Your human mind will never be able to comprehend the power of my God that is above your God.

You complete and utterly err in this, my friend.

I can’t believe you have lowered youself to “my dad can beat your dad” statements.

I do not believe in a (as in plural) god. I believe in ONE GOD, The Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. My believe in One God does not leave room for other gods that you may believe is greater than my God.

When God told Moses, “I Am, that I Am”, there is more to this small statement than anybody can imagine. My God just is. God alone exists in His own right. Everything is dependent on something. Everything we see or touch, smell around us is dependent on something or someone for its existence. Someone created the desk where I have my computer with different materials provided for that person. Plants depend on sunlight, water and minerals, to survive. They depend on other seeds to be created. Animals depend on other animals or vegetation to survive and male and females of the same species to be born. No one or nothing came into being by itself.

God alone “IS”. God could also be saying in those simple words “I am He who is.” Don’t look further. God cannot give His glory to another. God didntt become God by progressing from something less to greater perfection. God is eternal. He never ceases to be what He is, nor change to what He is not. God has no fear of anything greater than Himself because there is nothing greater. God creates and gives to others. All glory belongs to Him. It sets God apart from every other being.

We may look at the universe, and maybe scientist will tell us that they can see the edge of the universe. It can be measured in unimaginable distances, but distance involves time. God is outside time so thus God is greater than the Universe. Makes no difference what man may say about God.

Non-believer do not believe in God, and if they say they believe in a god its usually the god of self.

To those that believe, no explanation is necessary. To those that do not believe, no explanation is satisfactory.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

I do not believe in a god. I believe in ONE GOD, The Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. My believe in One God does not leave room for other gods that you may believe is greater than my God.

Sorry, I believe in the one true God, the God above all Gods, the supreme Primary God of all. He will come to you to, you just have to have faith and pray.

My God, is clearly better than your God, as he is above your God, he is the one true and correct God. Your God is above and my God is well above that, by many miles, he was before your God and will be after your God.

You must have faith.

See how easy it is .