Questions from a Lutheran looking for truth

[kparlet]

In essence, the Church itself is upholding the truth and the truth is built on the Church. What many Christians don’t realize is that the Church does not come from the Bible; the Bible came from the Church.

So we’ve established that we need to have truth and that the Bible tells us for truth we need to go to the Church.

But then the question becomes, which church?

There are over 25,000-30,000 different churches and denominations existing in the world today. This presents a huge problem for anyone who wants to know the truth. Again, the question is where do I go for the truth? When it comes down to knowing that you must seek out the truth and you’ve got this confusion as to even where to go to find the truth, then you can have a real problem when it comes to your salvation.

Looking at the situation in Christianity today, we’re faced with one of three possibilities.

Either:

1.    Jesus founded more than one church.  (We can essentially disregard the first possibility.  All throughout scripture Jesus and the Apostles refer to the Church, in the singular sense, and most Christians will not deny the fact that this was Jesus’ intention.)

Or

1.    Jesus founded one church, but it is a spiritual church, an abstract church – one to which all true believers belong regardless of faith tradition so long as they believe that Jesus Christ is their personal Lord and Savior.

Or that

1. Jesus founded one Church, but it is a church that is visible as well as spiritual – it is not simply an abstract church, one to which you may not belong if you have not received full membership.

 

[kparlet]

Unity

John 17:20-21

20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

---

Does the world, looking at 20,000-30,000 Protestant denominations, believe that they are one, and therefore, are moved to believe that Jesus was sent by God? Where is the unity in these bodies? On the other hand, if we look at the Catholic Church what do you see? We’ve got unity of doctrine that has been around for 2,000 years.

So, while most Protestant denominations will not say it like this, they must believe:

Either:

1.   Doctrine does not matter in the different denominations, it does not matter in the one Church of Christ.

Or that

1.   Conflicting doctrine can co-exist in the one Church of Christ.

You may have heard it phrased something like this, “We believe it is ok for conflicting doctrine to co-exist, as long as we believe in the essentials. It is ok if we disagree with the non-essentials.”

 

[condan]

If a person is serious in his desire to truly follow God through Jesus Christ, he has to ask himself this one question:

To whom was Jesus speaking in Matthew 16:18?

a) Simon Peter

or

b) Martin Luther

The Holy Spirit will never lead one away from the Church that He founded.

 

[kparlet]

Are we then to believe that there are essential parts of the Word of God versus non-essential parts of the Word of God? What it is really saying is that Truth only matters in a numbered few essential points and that that it doesn’t matter in the rest of the points.

This completely goes against everything in Scripture about Truth.

Mark 13:31

31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Matthew 4:4

4 But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Jesus tells us that all parts of the law are important, so where is there a non-essential Word of God?

---

There are lots of people out there that will tell you that it doesn’t really matter what church you belong to, so long as it is Christian in nature. As Catholics, we need to have engrained in our psyche the question, “Well, do truth and unity matter?”…and of course our response should be, it most certainly does! If Christ founded only one Church, then all other Christian churches were founded by men. Although they believe much that is true, and have many members who are sincere Christians, we simply cannot choose any of them over the Church founded by Christ.

Sources: Beginning Apologetics 1: How to Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith and Excerpts from a Catholic Answers Live interview with Catholic Apologist, John Martignoni
​

 

[Ghosty]

Another passage from Scripture that is often overlooked in discussions about Sola Scriptura is Acts 8:27-35 which reads:

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road–the desert road–that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."2]
34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

Scripture itself describes the need of the individual to have an interpreter, and the Church represents the wholeness of this.

 

[Melchior]

QUOTE=David F

…Since Greek was the common language used during this time throughout the Mediterranean world, the Septuagint was the preferred. Hebrew was a dying language, as most Jews of this time were speaking Aramaic. So, not surprising that the Septuagint was the translation used by Jesus and his disciples, as well as the New Testament writers.

Thanks, David.

I do want to address a couple of things. I admit they are more nit-picky than anything.

1. Hebrew at the time of Christ was not a dying language. Every Jewish boy, from the lowest to highest class, was thoroughly educated in the Hebrew Scriptures particularly the Torah at the time of Christ. hey had to be fluent in rading and writing in Hebrew by age 13. Aramaic was a street (or common) form of Hebrew. It as close to Hebrew as Potuguese is to Spanish (if you understand one you understand the other). Greek was the international language if commerce at the time. It was not the primary language of the Jews in Israel. While the Israeli Jews had access to them, The Greek translations were more widely used by the Hellenistic Jews of the diaspora (those outside of Israel). Which brings me to my next point…

1. written in Palestine.

1. Please forgive me for pointing this out but it is a major pet peave. But because of current world politics I think it is important to point out. There was no Palestine at this time. The word originated around 100 AD by the Romans as an insult to the Jews. It is a transliteration of Philistine. Palestine was only the name of the Roman province known as Judea at the time of Christ and the Apostles. It was known as Israel to the Jews who lived there.

Using the word Palestine somehow became poular in the 20th century. I think one of the main reason is the most popular maps in modern Bibles all come from that same source and mistakenly use “Palestine at the time of Christ”.

Thanks for indulging me.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

kparlet:

Does the world, looking at 20,000-30,000 Protestant denominations, believe that they are one, and therefore, are moved to believe that Jesus was sent by God? Where is the unity in these bodies? On the other hand, if we look at the Catholic Church what do you see? We’ve got unity of doctrine that has been around for 2,000 years.

O.k. your other points aside. It does no good for Catholics to keep throwing out this “20,000-30,000 Protestant denominations” line. It is false. First, there at most 300 or so Protestant denominations.Second, you cannot lump in every pseudo-christian cult like the Jehovah’s Witnesses ans Mormons in with Protestants. Third, there are certainly various Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans. But they all more or less fall under a denominatonial affiliation. I am Lutheran. But I worship in a particular Lutheran Church the LCMS. Those who throw around these numbers add up every different Luthern church in every country and count them as a seperate denominations as if there was some major variation. Even if you do this with all the Protestant denominations you will not get the numbers into the tens of thousands. It is nonsense. I am sure you believe this but you are just quoting popular Catholic fiction.

That being said I think there are too many denominations and that is a problem. But even if there was only Catholic and Orthodox you have the same dillemna.

Mel

 

[kirabira]

Mel- I find your comment fascinating. I wonder how you decide what a Christian is? The Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses would certainly insist they arent ‘psuedo’! Check out the handbook of christian denominations to see the variety and spectrum.
Also- If there were only Orthodox and Catholic- that would be much better! We are working towards a reconciliation and we both believe there was to be ONE Church. We also both have valid sacraments =)
pax tibi
K

 

[Melchior]

kirabira:

Mel- I find your comment fascinating. I wonder how you decide what a Christian is? The Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses would certainly insist they arent ‘psuedo’! Check out the handbook of christian denominations to see the variety and spectrum.

I decide what a Christian is the same way the Catholic Church does. If a person affirms the Creeds of the church (Apostles, Nicene) they are a Christian. Anyone who does not affirm the basic tenents of the Faith, that all historic Protestants, Catholic and Orthodox believe: The Virgin Birth, the Trinity, The Diety of Christ, His death and bodliy Ressurection and the Second Coming. If any of these are denied you don’t have a Christian. Mormon’s and Jehovah’s Witnesses deny some of these essentials therefore they are not Christian.

Also- If there were only Orthodox and Catholic- that would be much better! We are working towards a reconciliation and we both believe there was to be ONE Church. We also both have valid sacraments =)
pax tibi
K

Well if the corruptions of the medieval church didn’t happen it would not have been this way. And for the record the Catholics are working for reconciliation. The Orthodox believe the Catholic Church is outside of the Church and they are not, for the most, part interested in reconciling. The Catholic Church should be commended for her efforts.

Mel

 

[Ghosty]

Melchior: Whether the statistics are true or not is irrelevant, as the fact remains that Protestantism holds to no single, responsive source of truth. ANY individual can validly claim to be “fully” Christian by Protestant logic, as there is no common measure of Christianity established outside of the Church. Likewise, there are at least tens of thousands of people who claim to be Catholic, but by Catholic logic there is only ONE kind of Catholic. The rule is set and unchanging, and was established by Christ himself and taught by his followers decades before anyone even thought of putting his words to written text.

The Church does not claim that some touch of the Holy Spirit guides readers of Scriptures towards the truth, but rather that full truth can be discerned ONLY through the limits described by Christ, and those limits are embodied in the Magisterium. Protestantism, by rejecting the Magisterium, rejects the fundamental guidelines imposed by God Himself, in the flesh, and must therefore resort to dubious claims of “guidance by the Holy Spirit”. It doesn’t matter if there are 30,000 denominations or only 3, the point is that Protestantism has abandoned the guidelines of orthodoxy established by God, and therefore must rely on the testimony of fallible humans who, incidently, disagree as to what the Whole Truth of God’s word is. If Protestan logic allows for even 3 seperate denominations with equal claim to the Truth, then its logic is flawed because God is perfect and indivisible from Itself. Unless you can claim that your interpretation (and the interpretation of those who share your views) is the perfect Truth, then how can you claim to be guided by the indivisible Holy Spirit?

If you DO make that claim, then I ask simply “By what authority?” The Church has God’s promise of fidelity and direct, recorded Apostalic Succession. Where does your claim measure to that?

As a side note, your claims that the work of reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches being onesided at least appear to be in error. If they were onesided, then why would Orthodox churches even agree to dialogue, and why does the Catholic Church have within it reconciled Eastern Catholic churches? Both sides may believe that they are correct and the other is flawed, but both are certainly working towards reconciliation.

 

[rubyjen]

One excellent book I would recommend is by Marcus Grodi, called How Firm a Foundation. It handles every major question one could have when looking at the Catholic faith – the main character was the pastor of a church–and began to question who ultimately had the authority to say what was taught in any given church was the right interpretation…

Check it out…my husband and I liked it so much we bought 15 of them and sent them to friends…I am an adult convert myself…converted after my husband and I got married–finally feel like I’m home!

Good luck to you in your studies… and you might want to consider going to some RCIA classes–they can answer a lot of questions there; and give you great resources for in-depth study.

Jen

 

[martino]

Melchior:

O.k. your other points aside. It does no good for Catholics to keep throwing out this “20,000-30,000 Protestant denominations” line. It is false. First, there at most 300 or so Protestant denominations.Second, you cannot lump in every pseudo-christian cult like the Jehovah’s Witnesses ans Mormons in with Protestants. Third, there are certainly various Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans. But they all more or less fall under a denominatonial affiliation. I am Lutheran. But I worship in a particular Lutheran Church the LCMS. Those who throw around these numbers add up every different Luthern church in every country and count them as a seperate denominations as if there was some major variation. Even if you do this with all the Protestant denominations you will not get the numbers into the tens of thousands. It is nonsense. I am sure you believe this but you are just quoting popular Catholic fiction.

That being said I think there are too many denominations and that is a problem. But even if there was only Catholic and Orthodox you have the same dillemna.

Mel

Mel, why are there so many Lutheran churches?

 

[Lance_O]

Melchior:

It does no good for Catholics to keep throwing out this “20,000-30,000 Protestant denominations” line. It is false. First, there at most 300 or so Protestant denominations. Second, you cannot lump in every pseudo-christian cult like the Jehovah’s Witnesses ans Mormons in with Protestants. Third, there are certainly various Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans. But they all more or less fall under a denominatonial affiliation. I am Lutheran. But I worship in a particular Lutheran Church the LCMS. Those who throw around these numbers add up every different Luthern church in every country and count them as a seperate denominations as if there was some major variation.
Mel

Melchoir, It’s great that you are taking the time to share your comments on this issue. I hope that my reply to you will help us both understand our sides better.

I’ve always been under the impression (from my Lutheran friends) that there is no kind of ‘intercommunion’ between the various branches of Lutheranism. By ‘intercommunion’, I mean that you can’t take communion in the ELCA if you belong to the LCMS, or any type of Lutheran Church outside of the ‘synod’. Please forgive me if I’m not using the correct vocab such as ‘synod’…I’ve always understood it the be the same as a Catholic Diocese.

So, the point that I’m making is that, if they are not united with each other (in communion), can they count as the same denomination? If yes, what about ELCA and LCMS, two different groups of Lutheran churches? YOU SAID YES ABOVE, but how are they UNITED to each other? What about all the ‘non-denominational’ churches too? They don’t have any type of communion (unity) with other non-denomational churches do they?

In the Twin Cities area, I know of a Lutheran Church that broke away from another because the members felt the one was too ‘liberal’ on morality issues. In that instance, they severed ties (unity), and created their own branch. It just seems that they created one more denomination of Lutheranism that they claim to be the true Interpetation of the Bible. If this is not the claim, then why would they bother seperating themselves from the original congregation? Please don’t take these questions as ‘uncharitable attacks’ upon you or the Lutheran church-

God Bless,
Lance

ps-
Does anyone know where the USA keeps a list/statistics of all the registered Christian denominations in the county?

 

[agname]

Melchior:

No I am not. The Jews who translated the the OT into Greek did not consider the deutero-canonical books scripture. They excluded them. Now this was after the Lord had already come and I am not arguing that they were correct since the were not believers. I am just stating a fact of history. It was said that the deuteros were included in every Bible ever made before the Reformation. This is simply not true. Again I am not making an argument for or against these books I am just addressing an overstatement. It does not do the enquirer any good to state something that is not true. A good case can be made for these books without resorting to (I am sure unintentional) falsehood.

If he said most and not every then I would not have chimed in.

It should also be noted that the Orthodox have more books than the Catholic Church. They include the additional Apocryphal books that Catholics exlude from the Deutero-canonicals. Why is that? I honestly don’t know I am just curious.

Mel
Mel

You are wrong. The deuterocanonical books were indeed in the Greek Septuagint. The apostles regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings…such as Hebrews 11. When the canon of the Bible was affirmed by the Catholic Church at the Council of Hippo in 393 and at the Council of Carthage in 397…they were included. It wasn’t until Martin Luther broke off of Christ’s Church…that they were removed…for his version. For instance, Luther had a trouble with verses such as “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)” This really infuriated him. He wanted to remove James along with the other seven books…but was talked out of it. In Romans 3:28 it read, “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”, etc. etc. Luther decided that “works of law” was in reference to the laws of the Old Testament, including the Ten Commandments. The interesting thing is that when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered…they supported the Catholic belief that “works of law” …or in Greek “ergon nomou” refers to ceremonial law handed out in the Old Testament…not to the Ten Commandments ala Moral Law. Luther also inserted “alone” in Romans 3:28…to read, “man is justified by faith alone.” In 1525, Luther saw the flaw in his theory of private interpretation…he saw the anarchy. To quote Martin Luther, “There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the sacraments; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and he himself is a prophet.”

 

[agname]

We don’t believe in absolute assurance of salvation – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt 7:21). Scripture shows that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus says, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). So basically, one who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

 

[agname]

martino:

I am not talking about the Hebrew canon, I am talking about the Septuagint which did include the deutero-canonical books. I am well aware that the Jews after Jesus had come and gone threw them out of the their canon once and for all. The septuagint which was common around the time of Jesus did contain the books, the Jewish council that threw them out wasnt until 70ad. They remained in the Christian canon until the Reformation. If I am wrong then please correct me.

You’re right…the Jewish council met in Jamnia ~ 90 A.D (primarily to address the Christianity issue).

 

[agname]

On what basis can the Catholic Church claim that it is the one true church established by Jesus Christ?

One could easily answer this question by saying that it is revealed in Scripture.

Matthew 16:18-19

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Church founded by Christ must go back in history to the time of Christ, its doctrines must be the same as those of the Apostolic Church, and its leaders must be able to trace their authority back to the Apostles. Thus, history, Apostolic doctrines, and Apostolic authority are the sure guidelines for determining which Church Jesus founded. Only the Catholic Church meets these requirements.

History: Any objective history book will show that only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Christ. No Protestant denomination found today existed before 1517 AD.

***Apostolic Doctrines: ***The early Church Fathers are our indispensable link to Apostolic Christianity. Their writings tell us what the first Christians believed. A careful study of the early Church Fathers shows they all taught distinctively Catholic doctrines.

***Apostolic Authority: ***The Bible and Sacred Tradition are very clear that Christ left a Church that would be governed by a hierarchy of bishops, presbyters, and deacons with the successor of St. Peter as the head. Only the Catholic Church has such a governing hierarchy that can trace its authority – in an unbroken succession – back to the Apostolic authority established by Christ Himself.

But let’s dive into this topic a little deeper.

This has been addressed by me above already…in detail.

 

[agname]

Mel,

Here you go. Perhaps, you believe us now. Have a good day.

yourencyclopedia.net/Septuagint.html

**Books of the Septuagint **

ΓΕΝΕΣΙΣ Genesis
ΕΞΟΔΟΣ Exodus
ΛΕΥΙΤΙΚΟΝ Leviticus
ΑΡΙΘΜΟΙ Numbers
ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΝΟΜΙΟΝ Deuteronomy
ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΝΑΥΗ Joshua, the son of Nun
ΚΡΙΤΑΙ Judges
ΡΟΥΘ Ruth
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Α Kings I. (1 Samuel)
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Β Kings II. (2 Samuel)
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Γ Kings III. (1 Kings)
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Δ Kings IV. (2 Kings)
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Α Chronicles I.
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Β Chronicles II.
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Α Esdras I.
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Β Esdras II. (Ezra)
ΝΕΕΜΙΑΣ Nehemiah
ΕΣΘΗΡ Esther
ΙΟΥΔΙΘ Judith
ΤΩΒΙΤ Tobit
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Α I. Maccabees
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Β II. Maccabees
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Γ III. Maccabees
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Δ IV. Maccabees
ΨΑΛΜΟΙ Psalms
ΩΔΑΙ (with ΠΡΟΣΕΥΧΗ ΜΑΝΑΣΣΗ) Odes (with Prayer of Manasseh)
ΠΑΡΟΙΜΙΑΙ Proverbs
ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣΤΗΣ Ecclesiastes
ΑΣΜΑ Song of Solomon
ΙΩΒ Job
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΛΩΜΩΝ Wisdom of Solomon
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΕΙΡΑΧ Wisdom of the Son of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
ΩΣΗΕ Hosea
ΙΩΗΛ Joel
ΑΜΩΣ Amos
ΟΒΔΙΟΥ Obadiah
ΙΩΝΑΣ Jonah
ΜΙΧΑΙΑΣ Micah
ΝΑΟΥΜ Nahum
ΑΜΒΑΚΟΥΜ Habakkuk
ΣΟΦΟΝΙΑΣ Zephaniah
ΑΓΓΑΙΟΣ Haggai
ΖΑΧΑΡΙΑΣ Zechariah
ΜΑΛΑΧΙΑΣ Malachi
ΗΣΑΙΑΣ Isaiah
ΙΕΡΕΜΙΑΣ Jeremiah
ΒΑΡΟΥΧ Baruch
ΘΡΗΝΟΙ Lamentations of Jeremiah
ΕΠΙΣΤΟΛΗ ΙΕΡΕΜΙΟΥ Epistle of Jeremiah
ΙΕΖΕΚΙΗΛ Ezekiel
ΔΑΝΙΗΛ (with ΤΩΝ ΤΡΙΩΝ ΠΑΙΔΩΝ ΑΙΝΕΣΙΣ) Daniel (with Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Young Men)
ΣΩΣΑΝΝΑ Susanna
ΒΗΛ ΚΑΙ ΔΡΑΚΩΝ Bel and the Dragon