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dochawk
Guest
correct.
And for most eastern churches for most of history, ordination would not occur unless he was married.
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And for most eastern churches for most of history, ordination would not occur unless he was married.
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babochka
Guest
I’m not sure I agree with you here. How then do you explain the growth of monastic life in the East? Where do you think the Church found bishops throughout history? Traditionally, bishops are pulled from monasteries in the East. Even today, if a celibate priest who is not a monk is chosen as a bishop, he takes monastic vows before his ordination.jeannetherese:
correct.
And for most eastern churches for most of history, ordination would not occur unless he was married.
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dochawk
Guest
we were talking about parish/secular priests
There have been celibate monastic priests since either the first or early second century (I forget), but they were well enough established by the time married bishops were abolished in the second century to draw bishops heavily from the celibate priests of the monastery.
To this day, most eastern jurisdictions “tonsure” a priest to the monastery before installing him as a bishop!
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babochka
Guest
Ah, okay… I only looked at the quoted section, not the whole post.
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jeannetherese
Guest
Is the priest also a deacon? Is this an adopted child of a civil union between men? Would you mind clarifying please?
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jeannetherese
Guest
Was there a proscription against ordaining single men or a requirement that a man find a wife or else commit to a monastic order?
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DivineMercy01
Guest
The point of my example was to demonstrate that the father was absent from his duties as a father due to the necessity of his clerical duties.
Your example is neither here nor there in terms of the argument to have married men ordained. So the Catholic Church is imperfect-what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The Church will continue to be imperfect regardless of whether or not all Latin rite priests are celibate.
Your example is neither here nor there in terms of the argument to have married men ordained. So the Catholic Church is imperfect-what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The Church will continue to be imperfect regardless of whether or not all Latin rite priests are celibate.
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dochawk
Guest
I think that initially monasticism was an exception.
Timothy’s instructions on choosing presbyters included “husband of one life”.
My understanding is that, outside of the monastics, priests were chosen from the ranks of married men who had demonstrated responsibility.
I think it’s more a matter of that never changing than imposing a ban.
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jeannetherese
Guest
How does that work in the present day? Are men who are not ordained sent to live a monastic life or are single men allowed to serve as priests in their communities?
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dochawk
Guest
They don’t get “sent”.
Monastics are ordained from within the monastery. Early on, and today in some orders, they only ordain as many of the brothers as they need.
Some eastern churches, particularly in the US, ordain single men for the parishes.
Monastics are ordained from within the monastery. Early on, and today in some orders, they only ordain as many of the brothers as they need.
Some eastern churches, particularly in the US, ordain single men for the parishes.
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SerraSemper
Guest
That may be true, but I was saying “in addition to knowing many Eastern Catholic faithful and clergy elsewhere who grew up in the homeland”.
If you have a small flock, your dynamics are different. if You have a large flock with large numbers of clergy, the same is true.
I am well aware of what goes on for parish ministry and that the sacraments are not all that is done.
Weird.
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BornInMarch
Guest
It’s considered a discipline, meaning that individual Priests have to follow it as part of their obedience to the Church but the Pope has the authority to change this rule if he sees fit to. For example, if a married Anglican Priest converts to Catholicism then he can continue his ministry as a Catholic Priest. Additionally, in the the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church married men are allowed to be ordained as Priests.
Having said this, the reason for clerical celibacy isn’t just a measure to prevent dynasticism; there is theological basis for it too. Jesus Christ was never recorded to have married in His life, and the Apostle Paul remained celibate as well and called it ideal. Giving up sex and marriage also neatly aligns with the general theme of self-sacrifice as a method of proving faith.
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SerraSemper
Guest
There is certainly a rationale for clerical continence which is beautifully described in many documents including Sacra Virginitas. I wish more people would read and ponder works like this.
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babochka
Guest
Only the first time. It’s not the weirdest place I’ve had confession. Then you become grateful that you have a priest who is so accessible and has such care for souls that will drop everything to hear a confession, even in unusual places.
You said that there was little going on, sacramental or otherwise. My point was to show that even a small parish has a lot going on. Without other staff, our priest is considerably more more involved than the average Latin-Rite priest.
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SerraSemper
Guest
Maybe in your area. Not sure that’s universally true.
As a canon lawyer I think “safe environment” and possibilities for lawsuits when it comes to being in peoples’s bedrooms.
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babochka
Guest
I don’t see your example as any more or less relevant than mine. He wasn’t absent from his duties as a father because of his clerical duties. His clerical duties do not include protecting his reputation as a pastor at the expense of his children. That was his pride. You could easily substitute “his reputation as a doctor/police officer/judge/etc.” Men in ministry will fail to live up to their calling and they will sin within their own lives. Obviously, a celibate priest will not have the opportunity to ignore his own child’s suffering to protect his reputation as a pastor. He has plenty of other opportunities to sin that are unique to his specific circumstances.
Is it the presence of a bed? Because we were further apart than we would have been in many Reconciliation rooms I have seen. Yes, it was private, but the sacrament demands a certain amount of privacy. Do you anticipate the same sort of lawsuits if a priest goes to someone’s home for Anointing of the Sick and hears the confession of an ill person prior to anointing? Or would it be better to move the confession and anointing into a living room? I guess if you’re a lawyer you develop this sensitivity, but I just don’t think that way.
I am neither a child nor a vulnerable adult. Yes, it was a bit strange, but not awkwardly so.
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JerryZ
Guest
I am not going to comment on your first question, the celibacy “issue” which you have already got excellent responses in line with Church teaching. I want to respond to your second question regarding “simony” not being an issue?
Simony is a grave sin not to be entertained lightly.
Are you perhaps confusing this with the buying and selling of indulgences which is also a sin.
Peace!
Simony is a grave sin not to be entertained lightly.
Are you perhaps confusing this with the buying and selling of indulgences which is also a sin.
Peace!
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hope
Guest
When I read this I thought he was referring to usury???
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lanman87
Guest
I’m actually speaking about purchasing the office of bishop, which is a form of simony. In the middle ages the office of bishop often went to the highest bidder. And was appointed by the King instead of the Church. Kings would often give the office to either who paid the most for the position of power or to people he knew had loyalty to the king and would back the king over the Pope or Church rulings (or both).
Because those bishops often had children the title of Bishop would often be passed on to the eldest son. It made the office of Bishop be more a a feudal lord than a Holy Calling.
Pope Gregory VII in the 11th Century sought to reform this practice. This led to a huge rift, and even out right war, between the Church and the State. This is know as the investiture controversy.. One of the main reforms Pope Gregory (who was also a monk) implemented was the ban on priest being married and having children. This was thought to discourage people from seeking the office of bishop as a means of gaining power and riches that they could leave to their family.
The practice of investiture (or purchasing a Bishop’s office) was formally ended under Pope Calixtus II when an agreement was made in Worms in 1122.
Because those bishops often had children the title of Bishop would often be passed on to the eldest son. It made the office of Bishop be more a a feudal lord than a Holy Calling.
Pope Gregory VII in the 11th Century sought to reform this practice. This led to a huge rift, and even out right war, between the Church and the State. This is know as the investiture controversy.. One of the main reforms Pope Gregory (who was also a monk) implemented was the ban on priest being married and having children. This was thought to discourage people from seeking the office of bishop as a means of gaining power and riches that they could leave to their family.
The practice of investiture (or purchasing a Bishop’s office) was formally ended under Pope Calixtus II when an agreement was made in Worms in 1122.
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Wannano
Guest
A universal truth is evidenced still today, in the lives of all who have lived, including myself, being that the love of money is the root of all evil.
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