Questions from a Protestant Friend

[lyrikal]

Hello,

I have been been having discussions via e-mail with a Protestant friend about Catholicism. Before we had e-mailed discussions, he was not interested in Church History. After the e-mails, he seems a lot more interested now and wants to study Church History. Here is the last part of his email. I am planning on replying back to him today but I thought I would get some feedback on what I should say.

"I have taken it upon my self to look into church history as it is very important to do so. I have a couple general questions for you concerning your faith. I will repeat some question…

1. Is the authority of the bible subject to the Catholic church?
2. I understand your answer concerning the catholic church but be concise and keep it as short as you can. Is the catholic church infallible and perfect if so what do you mean by infallible?
3. Did the church fathers consider each others writing as sacred scripture, God breathed scripture?"

Please help.

Thank you.

 

[derekohachey]

Hi Lyrikal,

If you have not already, I would check out the Bible Christian Society website (biblechristiansociety.com/)). John Martignoni runs that web site and makes MP3s available for download. I would recommend “Which Came First, the Church or the Bible?” & “Apostolic Authority and the Pope”. If you need to get scripture quotations, I would recommend going to Scripture Catholic website. On point #2, we must clarify that the church is not Perfect and Impeccable (i.e. incapable of sin), but that it does not and has not teached error in the realm of Faith & Morals, and since the Pope is ultimately responsible for all the church’s teachings he teaches infallibaly in the realm of faith & morals. Papal infallability is a doctrine that scares many away because many perceive it to be cocky, so tread carefully.

Hope this helps,
Derek

 

[GJx86]

1. Is the authority of the bible subject to the Catholic church?

Each has equal authority and is to be treated with the same level of reverence (Dei Verbum 9). It’s not clear to me exactly what your friend is asking, though.

1. I understand your answer concerning the catholic church but be concise and keep it as short as you can. Is the catholic church infallible and perfect if so what do you mean by infallible?

The Magisterium, the collection of bishops, and the Bishop of Rome in particular are considered to be infallible under certain circumstances. The Church’s statement of this belief is in the Catechism at paragraphs 888-892.

Infallibility should not be confused with impeccability. No one said that churchmen would be sinless, merely that under certain circumstances they would be divinely protected from teaching error.

1. Did the church fathers consider each others writing as sacred scripture, God breathed scripture?

Someone else will have to answer this more fully (and possibly correctly), but here’s a quick shot at it.

Until the canon was more formally defined in the 4th century, there was some question about whether certain early writings were scriptural, but I suspect that it’s safe to say in general that post-Constantine fathers would not have considered each other’s writings to be Scripture. It was generally understood that in order for a document to be Scripture, it had to meet some criteria – it needed not to contradict the faith handed down from the Apostles, for one thing, and it had to either be penned by one of the Twelve (plus Paul) or someone writing with their authority (hence, for example, Luke, who turns out in Acts to have had a close relationship with Paul).

Reading the ECFs is valuable not because they wrote divinely-inspired Scripture, but because they were only a few generations away from the Apostles. Thus, for purely historical reasons, their recorded thoughts and practices are very likely to be those that the Apostles taught. If a vast majority of first-, second-, and third-century documents indicate that Christians believed that Communion is a sacrifice, it stands to reason that either Apostolic teaching was lost with nary a peep from true Christianity or the teaching was Apostolic teaching. And of course, if something is what the Apostles taught, then it is something we must believe, for the Apostles spoke with Christ’s authority (Lk 10:16, etc.).

Hope that helps.

 

[1edyson]

I believe the questions have a non-Catholic Christian feel to tone to the way they are asked, so in a way they’re being asked with a specific aim it seems. I would rephrase the questions a bit, but here are some answers I would offer.

1. Is the authority of the bible subject to the Catholic church?

Yes, in a sense. The Church cannot teach doctrine contrary to scared scripture, but since we believe that the Church helped to determine which scripture, of all the different writings that were circulating at the time, was God Breathed and inspired, we believe that the Church came Before the Bible. So we believe that Authority comes from, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Teaching Mageisterium of the Church

1. I understand your answer concerning the catholic church but be concise and keep it as short as you can. Is the catholic church infallible and perfect if so what do you mean by infallible?

The Church as the Bride of Christ is infallible, she cannot teach error in the matters of Faith and Morals. She is however made up of mortals that are capable of sin.

1. Did the church fathers consider each others writing as sacred scripture, God breathed scripture?"

No, Sacred Scripture is the Bible, and the Bible Alone. The writings of the early church fathers were of men, unless you’re referring to the writings of the early Popes, these are not to be added to the cannon of sacred scripture but they are to be considered infallible in the matters of faith and morals when used for teaching.

 

[derekohachey]

The writings of the early church fathers were of men, unless you’re referring to the writings of the early Popes, these are not to be added to the cannon of sacred scripture but they are to be considered infallible in the matters of faith and morals when used for teaching.

Just a note that when we look at writings of early popes, we must only consider their written teachings infallible when they were the Bishop of Rome and not holding another previous post.

 

[1edyson]

Just a note that when we look at writings of early popes, we must only consider their written teachings infallible when they were the Bishop of Rome and not holding another previous post.

ty for the correction!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello,

I have been been having discussions via e-mail with a Protestant friend about Catholicism. Before we had e-mailed discussions, he was not interested in Church History. After the e-mails, he seems a lot more interested now and wants to study Church History. Here is the last part of his email. I am planning on replying back to him today but I thought I would get some feedback on what I should say.

"I have taken it upon my self to look into church history as it is very important to do so. I have a couple general questions for you concerning your faith. I will repeat some question…

1. Is the authority of the bible subject to the Catholic church?

Well, it depends. What do you mean by “authority” and “subject to”? The Bible’s authority is not “subject to” the Catholic Church because the Bible is the Word of God. The tricky part is that we would not know what the Bible is (ie, the canon) without the authority of the Catholic Church. Therefore, the Bible, as a collection of inspired writings, depends upon the authority of the Catholic Church for its credibility. Further, we would not have a proper understanding of those books without the Church to guide us.

I can provide more on this if needed.

1. I understand your answer concerning the catholic church but be concise and keep it as short as you can. Is the catholic church infallible and perfect if so what do you mean by infallible?

Yes, the Catholic Church is infallible when teaching regarding matters of faith and morals under very specific circumstances. Infallibility does not mean that the Church is ALWAYS right - it means that the Church is prevented by God from formally teaching error. She might not know the right answer, but she may never teach a wrong answer.

1. Did the church fathers consider each others writing as sacred scripture, God breathed scripture?"

Please help.

Thank you.

Is it possible that one or two may have considered the writings of another esteemed father to be scripture? I suppose it’s possible. Peter appears to have considered Paul’s writings scripture long before the canon was finalized. Did Irenaeus consider Clements Letter to the Corinthians to be scripture? Well, apparently a lot of folks did for a very long time until the Church herself determined that Clement’s epistle was not scripture.