Questions from a Protestant Who Doth Protest a Little Bit

[Chereek]

Now, at the time of the Reformation, there were two claims that were made: the sacraments aren’t what the Church always claimed they were, and there was no ministerial priesthood. (You have to admit – those were pretty radical claims! To contest the teaching and lived experience of the Church throughout its 1500-year history… that took a certain brand of chutzpah!)

That’s actually been one of my main struggles throughout this process, because I recognize that so much was a part of the Early Church that has been rejected by Protestants, so a lot of what I am inclined to disagree with has to be authentic and even original Christianity (because if the Christians of first few centuries of the Church weren’t “real Christians,” as my church and many others claim that Catholics with the same beliefs are not, there was no Christianity to begin with). I think now it’s starting to come together, between the Apostolic Succession and the Sacraments. With the discussion that’s been going on, I’m starting to see the depth of the former. Because I didn’t grow up with it as being so important, while I know it’s part of Catholicism, it often hasn’t come to mind with all of this. I think I’m starting to get it.

So, the question you’ve asked is a pretty big question. You’re really asking for a discussion on the entirety of sacramental theology, as well as the ways that it grounds the discussion of the ministerial priesthood!

So… short of an essay on the whole of Catholic sacramental theology, is there a particular question (of somewhat lesser scope) that you’d like to ask?

Haha fair enough.
I do have a question that is related. If the answer to this is in the Catechism references you provided, or another part, feel free to direct me there, but while we are on a related topic, how does the Catholic Church interpret the significance of the OT Law today? In Protestantism, there is a whole big debate around it. It seems like the 10 Commandments still apply in the RCC, but what about the rest of the Law?

However, I would recommend that you read the Catechism. In particular, the “United States Catholic Catechism for Adults” is an approachable read. (It’s available for free access as a flipbook on the website of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (www.usccb.org).) Looking at the index, I see that the topic is discussed on p. 237 and p. 313.

Would you mind giving a few examples and explaining the reasoning…

Would you mind if I ask that you read the Catechism references I’ve provided, and then come back with any questions you have? (If you have the same questions, I’ll answer them then!)

I actually have a Catechism, so I will look those up during my devotions tomorrow. Thanks!

In that passage, Paul is talking about observations of abstinence, not precepts of Christian worship.

…
I have never noticed that before.
I’m reading the passage now, and it seems so obvious. xP Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Kei]

The priest administers the Sacraments and guides the flock. In the Old Covenant, the priests presided over the sacrifice.
If you wonder why we call priests priests and not just pastors, it is because we believe that he presides over the Sacrifice. The Eucharist is literally Christ made present. It is a presenting again of Christ crucified. He is not “crucified again” or any other Protestant myths. God in His omnipotent power has granted priests the ability to be in the person of Christ and offer the Sacraments. In as much as we need certain sacraments, a priest is generally needed. They are not necessarily needed, but it would not be easy for Christians to keep on going strong without the Sacraments or the celebration of the Mass.
Christ is the head of the Church. However, the church is visible, and we have a visible leader on earth.
There’s a lot of Catholics around the world. To keep unity, a pope is sorta important. Look at how fractured the Orthodox churches are.

But, the blessings are what helps sacramentals. I wouldn’t say they automatically bestow grace to us. The prayer we do with them do, however. Manking the sign of the cross with holy water, for instance. Just having rosary beads probably doesn’t do much (well, the devil doesn’t like to be reminded of his defeat at Calvary, I’m sure, but still). You’d actually have to pray ie the Rosary.

 

[Gorgias]

how does the Catholic Church interpret the significance of the OT Law today? In Protestantism, there is a whole big debate around it. It seems like the 10 Commandments still apply in the RCC, but what about the rest of the Law?

Here’s one explanation: Why We Are Not Bound by Everything in the Old Law | Catholic Answers

I actually have a Catechism, so I will look those up during my devotions tomorrow.

Do you have the green book or the red book? My references are from the red book…

 

[MW1T68]

Do you have the green book or the red book? My references are from the red book…

What is the difference between the green an red versions? I have the green one.

 

[Gorgias]

What is the difference between the green an red versions? I have the green one.

The green book is the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. It’s a document of the universal Church. It’s kinda hard to read, and reads like an encyclopedia.

The red book is the “U.S. Catholic Catechism for Adults”. It’s a document of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. It’s easier to read, and is written in the style of a book more than an encyclopedia.

They both present authentic Catholic teaching, but were written for different primary audiences.

 

[harlen]

Christ is the unique Mediator
But He asks us to follow & imitate Him in all things
So when Protestants pray for one-another they are mediating & interceding with God.
It’s another Catholic Both/And.
Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.
e.g. In the time of Moses, God made an eternal covenant; that a pot of the manna was kept in the Ark-of-the-Covenant within the holy of holies of the Tabernacle-Tent; and “the bread of the presence” (or showbread) was also to be perpetually in the tabernacle, with an eternal lamp to show God’s special presence. It was a sacred space set aside as God’s dwelling-place amongst men. This was all transferred to the Temple in Jerusalem…until it was destroyed in 70 AD…shortly after Christ’s Passion.
Catholics believe this eternal covenant is now continued, fulfilled and amplified in Jesus’ holy presence in the Tabernacle of every Catholic & Orthodox Church.
The Temple is no more because what made it holy is on a street near you.
Priests fulfill the role of people set apart, as those who tended the old Temple were.
It was the wisdom of the earliest Church
NB Look up The Epistle Of St Ignatius of Antioch to the Smynaeans (Chapters 7,8 &9) He was appointed by Peter, studied under St John was Bishop of Antioch & was executed by lions circa 107 AD. He wrote his epistles en route to execution.

 

[harlen]

1. The Pope (Matt 16:18-19 MUST be read with Isaiah 22:19-23)
   Peter says Jesus is The Messiah (which is The Davidic King who shall reign forever)
   In immediate response Jesus appoints His Davidic Steward, with a startling parrallel rendition of (Isaiah 22:19-22) …Where The Kings deputy is given “The Keys” and “I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place”
   The parrallels (including “Rock”/“firm place” Keys/Key Binding/Loosing =Opening/Closing are way beyond coincidence.
   The Davidic Steward is the Davidic Kings’ Deputy WHO RULED IN HIS ABSENCE.
   It was a SUCCESSIVE OFFICE.
   Deputising.
   Jesus is The Rock…but He makes Peter The Rock (Steward/Deputy)
   Jesus is The Shepherd…but He makes Peter The Shepherd (Steward/Deputy)

PARTICULAR DEPUTY ROLE OF PETER (“More than these”)
(John 21:15-17) "When they had finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love Me MORE THAN THESE?” “Yes, Lord, He answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus replied, “Feed My lambs.” Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus told him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17Jesus asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was deeply hurt that Jesus had asked him a third time, “Do you love Me?” “Lord, You know all things; he replied, “You know I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.

Yes Jesus is The Rock: He is also The Shepherd
but he deputises peter as rock & chief shepherd

so peter has a unique role among the apostles
It is underlined here
Luke 22:32 "Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you (plural) like wheat. But I have prayed for you (Singular), Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you (Sing)have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Why did Jesus only pray for Peter?
Peter becomess the touchstone of Orthodoxy & true faith
(the faith that will not fail …as satan sought…and which he confirms back to the others)
This is exactly the function of the papacy as it evolved.

1. Can I deal with this when I have more time

 

[harlen]

4.The Church in Acts used sacramentals/relics doing miracles through Aprons & Handkerchiefs of Paul & Peter’s shadow.
The early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs.
They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
In the OT in 2 Kings 13, a dead man comes back to life after touching the bones of the prophet Elisha.
In Acts; “God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.”
In Mark 5:25-34 A woman is healed by touching Jesus’ garment. "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”
NB…it was EFFECTIVE.
Jesus healed a blind man using mud & spit.
Protestantism has tended to DIS-incarnate Christianity sometimes to the point of Gnosticism. It became about reading, hearing, knowledge & thinking…a Head religion.