Questions from a "Returning" Catholic

[bmw890]

Hello Everyone,

I’ve posted once before but read threads on this board pretty frequently. I was born and raised Catholic, but started attending a Baptist church with my girlfriend in high school. We now are married, but I find myself being drawn (or wanting to go back) to the Catholic church. It’s a point of consternation for us, as to how to worship propelry. That’s not my question, just a little background.

Anyway, my first question is about grace. I just wanted to be clear about this, Catholics do teach that we are saved by Grace alone. We are only saved by grace and the death of Christ. It seems Protestants confuse this with Sola Fide (which I can’t believe given the Book of James) or that we teach works alone.

It’s almost as if Protestants have to take it to its “logical conclusion” with works. Their argument goes something like, “Well if you say it is faith and works, then it really only comes down to works alone.” I can’t find that. And to retort, I could reduce their argument of Faith Alone to something silly as well. For example, “if it is only faith alone then a person should be able to go back and sin as much as they like.” That is the premise, but they’d never accept that. They would say, “Well, you need to bare fruit,” which sounds to me, like a lot like works! Or that person was never saved to begin with, which would mean that some sort faith + works interplay is going on there.

As it stands right now, I’m on the fence. I see a lot of good things in the Catholic Church and some things I disagree with. I see a lot of things I agree with in some of Protestant teachings, but some things I disagree with.

Any advice?

 

[Della]

Welcome to CAF and back to the Church!

The operative word in your dilemma is grace. Faith and works are sides of the same coin–grace. Both faith and works are gifts from God because both are effective only through the grace of God. IOW, we have faith because of God’s grace and we can do good works of Christian charity because God’s grace gives us the power to do them. It is this same grace that saves us, for we are a constant work in progress working towards salvation which the redemption of Christ has won for us. Does that help?

 

[YourAverageJoe]

I think you need to argue about the “saved” part first. First of all, no one is “saved”, until one is judged and is in heaven. It is erronouse to presume oneself as “saved”, while we are still walking and breathing on earth. Paul did not think he was saved, and neather should we. There was many baptisms in antiquity, there was Johns baptism, some jewish baptisms, and some pagan baptisms, but only the baptism that was salvific was Jesus’ baptism. To distinguish one from the rest, early Christians would used the word “Saved”, as in, you need to get saved, etc. If one believes “Saved” as the protestants do,** than there is no need for works;** hence you are already saved. If one believes in “Saved” as the Catholics and early Christians did, then works become the fruit of your faith.

In Christ!

 

[bmw890]

I think you need to argue about the “saved” part first. First of all, no one is “saved”, until one is judged and is in heaven. It is erronouse to presume oneself as “saved”, while we are still walking and breathing on earth. Paul did not think he was saved, and neather should we. There was many baptisms in antiquity, there was Johns baptism, some jewish baptisms, and some pagan baptisms, but only the baptism that was salvific was Jesus’ baptism. To distinguish one from the rest, early Christians would used the word “Saved”, as in, you need to get saved, etc. If one believes “Saved” as the protestants do,** than there is no need for works;** hence you are already saved. If one believes in “Saved” as the Catholics and early Christians did, then works become the fruit of your faith.

In Christ!

Maybe the operative word that should be used is “redeemed” that is we are redeemed by the grace of Christ. I do have to study this more, but I was reading the Catholic Catechism (the one written by Ratzinger) the other night on the subject of Salvation and Grace and found nothing wrong with its teachings.

 

[Della]

Maybe the operative word that should be used is “redeemed” that is we are redeemed by the grace of Christ. I do have to study this more, but I was reading the Catholic Catechism (the one written by Ratzinger) the other night on the subject of Salvation and Grace and found nothing wrong with its teachings.

As I understand it, redeemed is what Christ has done for us and salvation is what he is doing for us. Each of has been redeemed and needed redemption, but in fact, the whole world was redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross. Anyway, it gets a bit beyond me the deeper I get into it. I’m thankful that one does not have to be a learned theologian in order to trust in Christ’s Church. Just think of the illiterate or the mentally handicapped or those who simply cannot grasp the more esoteric theological constructs. Where would we all be if we had to figure it all out for ourselves? That’s the great thing about the Church and it’s authority to teach Christ’s truths–it is simple enough for a child to understand what he needs, and yet so deep no one can ever plumb the depths of God’s love and work. Amazing, isn’t it?

 

[VociMike]

Anyway, my first question is about grace. I just wanted to be clear about this, Catholics do teach that we are saved by Grace alone. We are only saved by grace and the death of Christ. It seems Protestants confuse this with Sola Fide (which I can’t believe given the Book of James) or that we teach works alone.

I’d be reluctant to say “grace alone” because that suggests either that all are saved, or that God chooses some to be saved and others not.

God’s grace certainly is the starting point. Without his grace we can do nothing. But I wouldn’t say grace alone because in order to be saved we must accept and cooperate with that grace. God invites us to be saved, and gives us the grace to be saved, but he does not impose salvation upon us.

But I bet you agree with all that, right?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hello Everyone,

I’ve posted once before but read threads on this board pretty frequently. I was born and raised Catholic, but started attending a Baptist church with my girlfriend in high school. We now are married, but I find myself being drawn (or wanting to go back) to the Catholic church. It’s a point of consternation for us, as to how to worship propelry. That’s not my question, just a little background.

Anyway, my first question is about grace. I just wanted to be clear about this, Catholics do teach that we are saved by Grace alone. We are only saved by grace and the death of Christ. It seems Protestants confuse this with Sola Fide (which I can’t believe given the Book of James) or that we teach works alone.

It’s almost as if Protestants have to take it to its “logical conclusion” with works. Their argument goes something like, “Well if you say it is faith and works, then it really only comes down to works alone.” I can’t find that. And to retort, I could reduce their argument of Faith Alone to something silly as well. For example, “if it is only faith alone then a person should be able to go back and sin as much as they like.” That is the premise, but they’d never accept that. They would say, “Well, you need to bare fruit,” which sounds to me, like a lot like works! Or that person was never saved to begin with, which would mean that some sort faith + works interplay is going on there.

As it stands right now, I’m on the fence. I see a lot of good things in the Catholic Church and some things I disagree with. I see a lot of things I agree with in some of Protestant teachings, but some things I disagree with.

Any advice?

Read the link in my signature line.

 

[promethius]

Anyway, my first question is about grace. I just wanted to be clear about this, Catholics do teach that we are saved by Grace alone. We are only saved by grace and the death of Christ. It seems Protestants confuse this with Sola Fide (which I can’t believe given the Book of James) or that we teach works alone.

This is correct, we’re a “sola venia” church, based on the idea that we cannot do or be anything that is worthy of salvation. We are saved only by God’s Grace. As Paul says, however, in Eph 2:8-10, that grace is THROUGH faith, which is made living by a life of christian works which we were created and ordained by God to do. All of this is entirely in keeping with the scriptures and makes the only understanding of Paul, James, and the Gospels all work together.

As it stands right now, I’m on the fence. I see a lot of good things in the Catholic Church and some things I disagree with. I see a lot of things I agree with in some of Protestant teachings, but some things I disagree with.

To be Catholic you only need to really understand two things: the bible tells us that the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth, that the apostles and their succession have the keys to the kingdom, and that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against the church. When we consider those facts, there is only one option: by historical review we MUST arrive at the conclusion that the only church in existance which has continually taught since the life of Christ and has never changed its dogmas is one of the Catholic bodies.

Once we arrive at that conclusion, we discuss what you said: that YOU don’t square with certain parts of that deposit of faith. Well, that’s consideration number 2, which is a brilliant thing a priest told me at one time. Religion is not about finding something that changes to meet our views… it’s about US changing to meet the views of God. Let’s discuss the issues you have remaining and go through the background, i think you’ll find that the faith makes more sense when you have logical (name removed by moderator)uts on why things are as they are.

Any advice?

Yes. Let’s discuss the issues and bring you home to your church.

 

[diggerdomer]

Any advice?

Love God, and do what you will.

Cheers

 

[bmw890]

This is correct, we’re a “sola venia” church, based on the idea that we cannot do or be anything that is worthy of salvation. We are saved only by God’s Grace. As Paul says, however, in Eph 2:8-10, that grace is THROUGH faith, which is made living by a life of christian works which we were created and ordained by God to do. All of this is entirely in keeping with the scriptures and makes the only understanding of Paul, James, and the Gospels all work together.

To be Catholic you only need to really understand two things: the bible tells us that the Church is the pillar and bullwark of truth, that the apostles and their succession have the keys to the kingdom, and that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against the church. When we consider those facts, there is only one option: by historical review we MUST arrive at the conclusion that the only church in existance which has continually taught since the life of Christ and has never changed its dogmas is one of the Catholic bodies.

Once we arrive at that conclusion, we discuss what you said: that YOU don’t square with certain parts of that deposit of faith. Well, that’s consideration number 2, which is a brilliant thing a priest told me at one time. Religion is not about finding something that changes to meet our views… it’s about US changing to meet the views of God. Let’s discuss the issues you have remaining and go through the background, i think you’ll find that the faith makes more sense when you have logical (name removed by moderator)uts on why things are as they are.

Yes. Let’s discuss the issues and bring you home to your church.

Thank you for posting; I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. I totally agree with what the priest told you about religion. I heard a report on ABC World News Tonight a while back, saying a certain percentage of Americans said they felt the Catholic Church was out of touch with them. I was shocked at the shallow thinking! Didn’t they stop to consider that maybe they were out of touch with the Catholic Church? Why even bother to have religion if you just water it down enough so it conforms to the negative aspects of your life? Maybe people don’t like dealing with sin.

Sadly, I have seen this mentality in many of the mainline Protestant denominations. They have consistently watered down their theology, beliefs, and practices for the past fifty years to conform to the standards of post-modernism or whatever wind of popularity blows around. The ordaining of women as ministers, homosexuals as bishops, not taking a strong stand on the side of Life, etc. And where has this gotten them? Instead of seeing their numbers increase, they only fall.

From what I can see, a lot of Catholic Americans fall into this mentality as well. That is really a shame. As I said before, I do have some problems with the Catholic faith, but certainty would not want to be a cafeteria Catholic - just picking and choosing what to believe in and what not to. It wouldn’t happen so much with the social issues, but just with a few doctrines.

If you’d like me to give you a basic, simple, rudimentary list of these, I’d be happy to do so.

Thanks

 

[graceandglory]

Hello Everyone,

I’ve posted once before but read threads on this board pretty frequently. I was born and raised Catholic, but started attending a Baptist church with my girlfriend in high school. We now are married, but I find myself being drawn (or wanting to go back) to the Catholic church. It’s a point of consternation for us, as to how to worship propelry. That’s not my question, just a little background.

Anyway, my first question is about grace. I just wanted to be clear about this, Catholics do teach that we are saved by Grace alone. We are only saved by grace and the death of Christ. It seems Protestants confuse this with Sola Fide (which I can’t believe given the Book of James) or that we teach works alone.

It’s almost as if Protestants have to take it to its “logical conclusion” with works. Their argument goes something like, “Well if you say it is faith and works, then it really only comes down to works alone.” I can’t find that. And to retort, I could reduce their argument of Faith Alone to something silly as well. For example, “if it is only faith alone then a person should be able to go back and sin as much as they like.” That is the premise, but they’d never accept that. They would say, “Well, you need to bare fruit,” which sounds to me, like a lot like works! Or that person was never saved to begin with, which would mean that some sort faith + works interplay is going on there.

As it stands right now, I’m on the fence. I see a lot of good things in the Catholic Church and some things I disagree with. I see a lot of things I agree with in some of Protestant teachings, but some things I disagree with.

Any advice?

Do pick up the book by Jeff Cavins, “My Life on the Rock.” He shares his testimony similar to yours, being raised Catholic, becoming baptist, or something, marrying a lovely Christian wife, and his faith journey with his wife, back to the Catholic Church. Easy read.

 

[graceandglory]

Love God, and do what you will.

Cheers

diggerdomer, out of the context of St. Augustine’s writing, that phrase is a bit misleading.
“Love God” is a place holder for “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.” When loving God and doing His will are the most important aim of your life, then pretty much, you can do what you will. When your will becomes conformed to His will.

 

[Bella85]

bmw890,

I wanted to recommend some wonderful audio CD’s that I have found super helpful and enjoyable as I, like you, seek to learn more and more about my faith and understand it better.

**Scott Hahn’s conversion story **- catholicity.com/cds/hahn.html
**David Currie - A Quest For Truth (A Convert’s Perspective) - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/quest_for_truth_a_converts_perspect;jsessionid=b1a5a561b68176de660a442dcf03
**Marcellino D’Ambrosio - Why Be Catholic? - **crossroadsinitiative.com/resource_info/9.html
**Tim Staples - The Bible Made Me Do It - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/the_bible_made_me_do_it;jsessionid=9b69ce0521b590b68f90e6fe67b0

For your wife -
**A Pastor’s Wife’s Journey Home - Kimberly Hahn - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/a_pastors_wifes_journey_home

I really hope you can get your hands on at least a couple of these. They have helped me learn so much, even as a cradle Catholic. I hope this helps!!!

 

[bmw890]

bmw890,

I wanted to recommend some wonderful audio CD’s that I have found super helpful and enjoyable as I, like you, seek to learn more and more about my faith and understand it better.

**Scott Hahn’s conversion story **- catholicity.com/cds/hahn.html
**David Currie - A Quest For Truth (A Convert’s Perspective) - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/quest_for_truth_a_converts_perspect;jsessionid=b1a5a561b68176de660a442dcf03
**Marcellino D’Ambrosio - Why Be Catholic? - **crossroadsinitiative.com/resource_info/9.html
**Tim Staples - The Bible Made Me Do It - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/the_bible_made_me_do_it;jsessionid=9b69ce0521b590b68f90e6fe67b0

For your wife -
**A Pastor’s Wife’s Journey Home - Kimberly Hahn - **lighthousecatholicmedia.com/store/products/a_pastors_wifes_journey_home

I really hope you can get your hands on at least a couple of these. They have helped me learn so much, even as a cradle Catholic. I hope this helps!!!

Thank you! I’ll look into them. I have Scott Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home and enjoyed it. I listen to Catholic radio as well and enjoy the teachings of Father Larry Richards on Changed Forever and Bishop Fulton Sheen.

I’ll check out your resources as well, and hopefully get some books by Chesterton as well.

Thanks!

 

[Bella85]

Great, I hope you find them helpful. If you enjoy Fr. Larry Richards, he also has a great CD on Confession and another called The Mass Explained. They both can be found, for free, here: catholicity.com/cds/

Enjoy!