Questions from an Evangelical

[Eden]

More than 3/4 of “Christians” on the planet honor the Virgin as blessed. The removal of the Virgin Mary as blessed from the newer Christian faiths is a very recent event in terms of the history of Christianity.

…Those who, in all sincerity, find themselves rejecting the Church’s teachings about the Blessed Virgin Mary are often only one step away from the fullness of the faith… the teachings about Mary do not take away from the glory of God, but manifest it. Just as she gave flesh to God the Son, she also gives flesh to His Gospel throughout the centuries

 

[TamaraS]

Everyone here has done a much better job answering you than I could, but I have sort of a soft spot for Mary, so I wanted to respond a little. Obviously, you are already aware that Catholics don’t believe that we are seperated from those that have died, so whether or not you agree with this, you know that we believe in asking those who have gone before us to pray for us as well as those who are physically here. Whenever I pray, I ALWAYS go to God, but I also ask my family and friends to pray for me as well as asking Mary and others who have gone before us to pray to the Lord for me as well. I don’t side-step God and go to anyone else instead, rather, I pray to the Lord and I ask others to join me as well. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. And ditto what others have said about you being so charitable in your questioning!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

skattas:

Hi, I’m a Born Again Evangelical with some questions on the Catholic faith. Been pretty busy, but I finally have the chance to ask my first question. Now, I know a lot about Mary and the Catholic belief on why you pray to her for intercession and so on, but as many people who know my faith, know that we believe otherwise.

Here is where we come from: Heaven is a place of pure peace, solitude, and perfection, free from the troubles the world brings about. I’m sure many of you believe that as well, so I think this is a good starting point.

My problem arises when this is contradicted by the notion of being able to talk to and ask those who have passed on (Mary, the Saints—people who were exactly that…people), and concern them with the troubles of the world. With this said, another problem arises: why would I pray to Mary or any other, when I can talk freely to Jesus himself? The way I look at it is: ‘Why would I talk to the bouncer when I know the owner of the club?’. God is a loving Father. All I know is that a loving father would welcome his child to come speak to him directly. Jesus does not need extra persuasion from his mother to do something for his child. Mary will not tell him anything the all-knowing Father wouldn’t already know. He is the source of all knowledge, generosity, empathy, and kindness. No one can add to what the Lord knows and sees. God’s decisions are final and just…because of his infinite wisdom and love. In this respect, what benefit is there in believing that Mary or any of the saints could have more of an impact than your own personal prayers, or of those still alive?

Well, I’m sure that the questions and topic will expand from this point on, sorry if it’s a little confusing!
Thanks again for listening everybody, and for helping.
God Bless you all."

I find it helps to think of Mordecai in the Book of Esther. Haman has to go before him, crying out, “This is the man whom the King desires to honour”.​

So with the Saints - they are (in their measure), “men approved by God”, just as St.Peter said that Jesus was. He is the standard for what is truly human - they resemble Him: not because they are great - that would be a silly idea - but because He is great. “God is wonderful in His Saints” - in the NT, and in the period since the NT: He is still a Living God, a God always active, always at work - so holiness like that of His dearly-beloved Son, on whom His favour rests, is as urgent a need for us now as 1900 years ago. God is not confined to the Biblical period - He is very much alive, and His Will has not changed: He still desires that His People should be a holy people: and the Saints who are recognised as such, are those who have responded with greatest generosity to His Will (the canonised Saints are not the only ones - so there is a feast of All Saints on November 1.) All Christians are saints -these are saints, not only by being called to be saints, as we all are, but by being saints in reality as well as in name.

It’s not that our prayers are less than theirs - we all share in the same Spirit, Who is the bond between Christians in Heaven & earth: the point is that our communion with them is not broken by death. Since “Jesus Christ has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel”, this is unsurprising. They live in Christ for ever, and see their Father’s Face - so they are not less alive than we, but more. The Church is a Body, spanning time and space - not a heap of disconnected old bones in which there is no life, but a living organism, alive in every part with the Life of Christ. He is not half-alive, not a zombie - but the “Prince of Life”, the True Vine, Who unites in one Life all those who are His members. And that Life, is the Life of God Himself.

Hope that helps ##

 

[Cotton]

Let me piggy-back on JimG’s “family” comments above by quoting a few words from Catholic for a Reason II edited by Scott Hahn and Leon Suprenant.

“…Mary is directly related to God by a natural bond of convenant kinship, as the Mother of Jesus, to whom she gave her own flesh and blood. This bond is what enables us to share the New Covenant grace of Christ by adoption. Furthermore, Jesus is legally bound by His Father’s Law (“Honor your father and mother”) to share His honor with Mary, as her Son. Indeed, He fulfilled this law more perfectly than any son has ever done, by bestowing the gift of His divine glory upon her. And we are simply called to imitate Him.”

As Pope John Paul II has stated: “God in His deepest mystery is not a solitude, but a family, since He has in Himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” Scott Hahn states further that the work of salvation is the work of all three Persons of the Holy Trininty. Our redemption thus assumes Trinitarian and family proportions.

Hope this helps,

Cotton

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

I’m lazy and didn’t read everything so this was probably answered but-as for praying to saints “over” God-it takes the same amount of time to ask a saint to pray for you as it does to ask a friend. If asking a friend is beneficial, why wouldn’t asking a saint?

 

[gardenswithkids]

skattas:

…Heaven is a place of pure peace, solitude, and perfection, free from the troubles the world brings about. …why would I pray to Mary or any other, when I can talk freely to Jesus himself?

Heaven is described by Jesus in the Gospel as a wedding feast. “The kingdom of Heaven is like this. There was a king who prepared a feast for his son’s wedding…” Matt 22: 2-3 If you go to a wedding, do you really want to spend the time in solitude? Wouldn’t you rather mingle with the other guests? Perhaps talk to the mother of the groom? Sure you can spend time with your friend the groom, but He didn’t invite you to a quiet dinner for two–he invited you to his wedding!

There are lots of other parts of scripture that carry on the wedding theme with Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church His bride. I’m not expecting to find solitude in heaven–I’m expecting to find a big wedding feast. While I’m on the earth Mary and the Saints in heaven encourage me accept the invitation that He sent me. I think they rejoice when each new guest arrives–but I find it’s more fun to see people at weddings that I already know. So I don’t think they mind being troubled with all the events on this earth–it how they get to know us so we can all have more fun when we join them.

 

[skattas]

deb1:

Just a thought, but I have always found the version of heaven put forward by the Op to be depressing and cold. I believe and am comforted by the fact that my deceased relatives-especially my dad, whom I never met-are looking down on me from above. Because Protestants normally can give scriptual refrences for their beliefs, I have to ask, where in the bible does it state that we will be ignorant and uncaring of what happens on earth after our death?

Ignorant and uncaring??..I re-read my message a few times, and I didn’t see those two words or anything like them anywhere. I never even implied this, so hopefully we can deal with what is actually there. What I wrote was that in heaven, God allows us to be at rest from all the troubles of the world that we were finally taken from. He allows us to truly rest in His peace. He rewards us for our commitment, dedication, and obedience to Him in a world that tests all the things just mentioned. That was the intention behind what I wrote. Hope it is clearer for you next time.

 

[skattas]

TamaraS:

Everyone here has done a much better job answering you than I could, but I have sort of a soft spot for Mary, so I wanted to respond a little. Obviously, you are already aware that Catholics don’t believe that we are seperated from those that have died, so whether or not you agree with this, you know that we believe in asking those who have gone before us to pray for us as well as those who are physically here. Whenever I pray, I ALWAYS go to God, but I also ask my family and friends to pray for me as well as asking Mary and others who have gone before us to pray to the Lord for me as well. I don’t side-step God and go to anyone else instead, rather, I pray to the Lord and I ask others to join me as well. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. And ditto what others have said about you being so charitable in your questioning!

I really appreciate your thoughts…thank you! I hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I thought Catholics “side-step” prayers to God in the name of praying to others, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why didicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways). I’m so sorry if that wasn’t very clear. I’l get used to this ‘forum writing’ thing soon enough…I hope!!!

 

[DeFide]

skattas:

…, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why dedicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him …

That’s all? That’s not so bad. I say this because asking others to on earth to pray for you is the same as asking our friends in Heaven to pray for us.

I’ve never met any Christian who has a difficulty with asking others on earth to pray for them and I assume you dont’ either. Once you realize that those in Heaven are aware of earthly events, it’s a natural transition to ask for their prayers (see my previous list of Bible passages in this thread). Any friend of God is a friend of mine.

 

[Franz]

DeFide:

That’s all? That’s not so bad. I say this because asking others to on earth to pray for you is the same as asking our friends in Heaven to pray for us.

I’ve never met any Christian who has a difficulty with asking others on earth to pray for them and I assume you dont’ either. Once you realize that those in Heaven are aware of earthly events, it’s a natural transition to ask for their prayers (see my previous list of Bible passages in this thread). Any friend of God is a friend of mine.

Thats basically it. Once you ask others to pray for you (which all Christians do), and you realize that we are all part of the same body of Christ both on earth and in heaven, you will understand that you have been doing this all along and are in perfect harmony with the Catholic teaching on this.

Those in heaven are concerned with earthly events (where do you get the idea that they aren’t?). Look at the Transfiguration, look in revelation which shows the prayers of the saints being presented to God by those in heaven.

You might do well to listen to this CD on the communion of saints by John Martigioni. I have 3 of these CD’s and they are fabulous.

biblechristiansociety.com/free_tapes.asp

God bless you skattas for searching.

 

[Franz]

DeFide:

Hi Skattas,

I hope I don’t rehash too much of what others have said, but just because the Saints aren’t troubled like we are over Earthly events (they see the big picture), does not mean that they are unaware of them. Consider especially the passage summaries in bold:

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
**Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem **
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
**Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication **
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

source: geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

I hope that helps, and I’ll keep you in my prayers, and I hope you’ll do the same for us.

This should help you too.

 

[RyanL]

There’s a great article by a regular poster (itsjustdave) here.

God bless,
RyanL

P.S.,
Glad to see you back here!

 

[Catholic_Tom]

RyanL:

There’s a great article by a regular poster (itsjustdave) here.

God bless,
RyanL

P.S.,
Glad to see you back here!

Thanks for the link Ryan, that was fantastic and very informative. So well explained. I’ll highlight a couple of things from that blog.

"Didn’t the Psalmist give us a Scriptural example of invoking (humbly requesting, aka praying) the heavenly angels and saints directly in prayer? (Ps. 103:20–21). In Psalms 148 we pray (humbly request), “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” EeeeeeK! We’re praying to angels and all his hosts!!! How unScriptural is our Scripture!!

When you get a chance, check out your hymnal and see the prayer to Mary and Joseph that you sing in Angels We Have Heard On High. Protestants, whether knowingly or not, ask (PRAY) for Joseph and Mary’s help when they sing the hymn, Angels We Have Heard on High. The relevant verse goes: “See Him in a manger laid / Whom the choirs of angels praise / Mary, Joseph, lend your aid / While our hearts in love we raise.” Double eeeeek!!! Prayers to Mary and Joseph in our hymnals!!!"

and

"What if you can’t hear the saints and angels, can they hear you? If so, how?

Even if you cannot hear the angels and saints conversing with you, they can hear you conversing with them. Christ is the vine between the branches. They do not have to be omnipotent to be able to hear you. St. John was a mere creature of God. Nevertheless, by the power of God, St. John somehow heard every created thing in heaven and on earth without having to be omnipresent like God (Rev 5:13 - “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea”). It seems one doesn’t need to be omnipresent when God is the vine between the branches and can, by his almighty power, allow any of his creatures, even a mere human like St. John, to hear what all of God’s creation is saying.

But are the angels and saints aware of our petitions? According to Revelation ch. 5, and ch. 8, we can be certain that the angels and heavenly hosts alive in heaven offer to God the prayers of the holy ones (Rev 5:8; 8:3)."

 

[carol_marie]

Hi Skattas,

I became a born again Evangelical Christian about 13 years ago (Praise the Lord!) and I was received into the Catholic Church this past Easter (Praising Him still !! Anyhow, back when I was an Evangelical I used to think that Catholics prayed to Mary all the time… I thought it was ALL ABOUT MARY… and I used to feel so sorry for God thinking He must hate all that attention going to her instead of Him.

I just wanted to tell you that now that I’m on the other side, it’s honestly ALL ABOUT JESUS. Really. In fact, I’m surprised that Protestants make such a fuss about Mary because really - she’s hardly mentioned much at all. Oh don’t get me wrong - we do pray to her & ask her to pray (to God) for us. And we love her very very much because after all, she did say yes to God & follow Him always. But our #1 main focus is Jesus. Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? If not, I would really reccomend you go. You will see for yourself that it’s all about Jesus. It’s so beautiful. I think because I came in knowing & loving the Lord so much already, I am just in awe of the mass - every single time.

God Bless you,
CM

 

[JackmanUSC]

the most logical way to explain the way the intercession of the Saints and Mary works is as follows. Think of a court hearing and someone is making their case before the judge. Lets say it is a Supreme Court hearing and this person is pleading to have the court listen to him and give him what he wants. He argues his case to the Judge(s) himself, but at the same time those who support him in his efforts can file amicus curiae or “friend of the court” briefs on his behalf to the judge in order to influence his decision. God being the ultimate judge of all humanity lets those who wish to do so file amicus curiae briefs with him in the form of intercessionary prairs.

 

[gap51]

Consecrating ourselves in this way to Jesus through Mary implies placing our good deeds in Mary’s hands. Now, although these deeds may appear good to us, they are often defective, and not worthy to be considered and accepted by God, before whom even the stars lack brightness. Let us pray, then, to our dear Mother and Queen that having accepted our poor present, she may purify it, sanctify it, beautify it, and so make it worthy of God. Any good our soul could produce is of less value to God our Father, in winning his friendship and favour, than a worm-eaten apple would be in the sight of a king, when presented by a poor peasant to his royal master as payment for the rent of his farm. But what would the peasant do if he were wise and if he enjoyed the esteem of the queen? Would he not present his apple first to her, and would she not, out of kindness to the poor man and out of respect for the king, remove from the apple all that was maggoty and spoilt, place it on a golden dish, and surround it with flowers? Could the king then refuse the apple? Would he not accept it most willingly from the hands of his queen who showed such loving concern for that poor man? “If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”

THE SECRET OF MARY****St. Louis de Montfort

 

[Franz]

gap51:

Consecrating ourselves in this way to Jesus through Mary implies placing our good deeds in Mary’s hands. Now, although these deeds may appear good to us, they are often defective, and not worthy to be considered and accepted by God, before whom even the stars lack brightness. Let us pray, then, to our dear Mother and Queen that having accepted our poor present, she may purify it, sanctify it, beautify it, and so make it worthy of God. Any good our soul could produce is of less value to God our Father, in winning his friendship and favour, than a worm-eaten apple would be in the sight of a king, when presented by a poor peasant to his royal master as payment for the rent of his farm. But what would the peasant do if he were wise and if he enjoyed the esteem of the queen? Would he not present his apple first to her, and would she not, out of kindness to the poor man and out of respect for the king, remove from the apple all that was maggoty and spoilt, place it on a golden dish, and surround it with flowers? Could the king then refuse the apple? Would he not accept it most willingly from the hands of his queen who showed such loving concern for that poor man? “If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”

THE SECRET OF MARY****St. Louis de Montfort

This was poetically beautiful, but probably not helpful in explaining the communion of saints or Mary to Non-Catholics, IMHO.

 

[Donna_P]

Do you pray for your family? Why? They can pray for themselves. But in praying for others, all of our prayers are united. God loves and requires this unity.

Jesus loves His Mother. When we unite with Mary, we honor His mother whom He gave to us on the cross.

 

[reen12]

Hi, skattas,

I read your original post, but have not read the replies.
My take on it is this:
God is a Trinity…a “family” in a sense.
God made us to be born, ideally, into a family.

We are, again, ideally, born with a father and a mother
to care for us.

You might say that human beings are “hard-wired”
masculine and feminine, and that both genders
help and heal one another through the gifts of their
masculinity or feminity. [At least, that’s been my
experience in life.]

OK. Since God made us, He knows that we “need”
the feminine as well as His Son.
Is this the reason we have Mary to “turn to”?
Not that we *can’t *turn to Jesus, but we need a
mother, too. Was God responding to that human
need by giving us Mary?

I saw an old film, recently, made by Fr. Peyton’s
productions. In it, Mary is escorted into a room,
after the crucifixion, to meet a man whom Jesus
had healed. She walks gently up to this man
and says: “Son…may I call you son…?”
It blew me away. The perfect feminine…offering
to console and be with those who had lost her
Son [as this man thought, at that moment, before
the Resurrection.]

Hope this helps…it helped me,

Best,
reen12

 

[skattas]

mommy:

How do we reconcile this with the wedding at cana? Mary tells him they’re out of wine, and without a definate ‘yes or no’ from him, she turns to the others and says "do whatever he tells you to do " And he does it. Jesus loves and obeys his mother. I would think if she asked for something it just may carry a bit more weight than if someone else asked.

In bad times don’t you want everyone you know on your side rooting for you? That’s why we ask friends, etc to pray for us. And what a comforting thought that saints in heaven, who are closer to Jesus than we are could possible give a little extra prayer for us? St Somebody taps Jesus on the shoulder and says you know our friend skattas is having a really rough time, we’d be grateful for any extra help you could throw his way.
No one suggests that Jesus isn’t aware of us or our plights, but does it honestly hurt to have just one or two or 30 more people who have favor with him in your corner?

Where in the Bilble, or tradition does it say that once we die we have no knowledge of earth, or life on earth? Obviously none of us have first hand knowledge of heaven, but wouldn’t it be safe to say that things that are not possible on earth WOULD be possible in heaven? Why should we limit the possibilites of what heaven could hold?

See, I understand that he did what his mother asked of him, but that ties into our belief that Jesus came to be a perfect example of how we should lea our lives. Many of those who followed him and met him saw him to be a good son, and a son that kept God’s commandments to “Honor thy Father and Mother”. This is what he was to do. He lived the righteous life and show others that as a human, this is what we should strive for. He broke so many of man’s rules to honor God’s : touching the lepars, speaking to women in broad daylight, associating with tax collectors, theives, and prostitutes, and so much more. He honored God’s teachings to “love thy neighbor as thyself”, he showed the fruits of the spirit to be love joy peace patience kindness goodness, gentleness and self control…he lived it, just as he did in that moment.

As for it not hurting to have more people plead my case to God…all this shows me is that my prayers and needs are not enough. We are equal children to God. He is a good and loving Father, and a good and loving father would never show favoritism over another child, nor would he need others to convince him to fulfill a need. This should be and is to God, his first priority. To have others to do the same doesn’t hurt, but to me, is not useful. I will take the words that I would give to St. Somebody, and use them to pray extra hard or longer to God.

As for me limiting the possibilities in heaven; I’m not sure I am. I’m just avoiding assuming what could be happening. Anyone could ttake certain lines from the Bible and make them appear to explain a certain phenomena that we wish to believe in. Now, I’m not saying that this is what you are doing, all I’m saying is that it is indeed a possibility, and this should be recognized. But when it comes down to it, it is all based on the core differences of our faiths. Our belief systems are rather different, and I’m coming to know that in the past little while. I really do appreciate all these responses, they are very helpful. I also appreciate the WAY they are written. Thank you all so much. I’m sorry that it takes me so long to respond, it’s so hard to read these with the respect they deserve. Thanks again. God bless you all