Questions from an Evangelical

[skattas]

gap51:

Consecrating ourselves in this way to Jesus through Mary implies placing our good deeds in Mary’s hands. Now, although these deeds may appear good to us, they are often defective, and not worthy to be considered and accepted by God, before whom even the stars lack brightness. Let us pray, then, to our dear Mother and Queen that having accepted our poor present, she may purify it, sanctify it, beautify it, and so make it worthy of God. Any good our soul could produce is of less value to God our Father, in winning his friendship and favour, than a worm-eaten apple would be in the sight of a king, when presented by a poor peasant to his royal master as payment for the rent of his farm. But what would the peasant do if he were wise and if he enjoyed the esteem of the queen? Would he not present his apple first to her, and would she not, out of kindness to the poor man and out of respect for the king, remove from the apple all that was maggoty and spoilt, place it on a golden dish, and surround it with flowers? Could the king then refuse the apple? Would he not accept it most willingly from the hands of his queen who showed such loving concern for that poor man? “If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”

THE SECRET OF MARY****St. Louis de Montfort

whoa…winning his friendship and favor?! Is that what you feel you have to do?! Is that what you feel you have to do for your human father? For your sake, I hope not. The God I know loves his children unconditionally because they are exactly that…his children. That’s all it takes. Just as you love your mother (or wife and children–if it is so) , you don’t need them to prove they are worthy of your friendship and favor. Nor do they have to compete against one another for these things.

As for Mary cleaning up the mess before it is given to her son…I tend to disagree. Remember, throughout the Bible, no one had to be “cleaned up” before seeing Jesus. The lepars didn’t take a bath, the dead weren’t primped up to be risen, the sick, possessed, diseased, and everything of the like did not have to go through anyone, including Mary to have any more chance of recieving God’s mercy. Jesus said we must only : “ASK”. That is all the people in the Bible did, and that is all we need to do.

My God is a compassionate, loving and powerful God. When I think of him, I feel secure and proud to be loved the way he loves me. I do good not to win his favor, but because I love him enough to know that he gave me a gift of life, and I would not EVER want to disappoint Him by dishonoring this gift. I use my life to bring those who seek refuge and peace to a God who can love them unconditionally. I know he knows I am full of sin, and not worthy of his grace, but he constantly rminds me that he will never stop giving it to me freely as long as I ask for it. My relationship is me and Him; a friendship, a relationship. It is the relationship I have with my human father, unique to all others, not in need of a mediator or helper. It is an incredible dydad. It is an wondeful feeling to experience this everyday. From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him. I hope you feel this, and I am just very mistaken, but if you don’t, I pray that one day you’ll know the love of a good and perfect Father.

Thanks for your thoughts.
God Bless and Love you Always

 

[RedDeathsMask]

skattas:

As for it not hurting to have more people plead my case to God…all this shows me is that my prayers and needs are not enough. We are equal children to God. He is a good and loving Father, and a good and loving father would never show favoritism over another child, nor would he need others to convince him to fulfill a need. This should be and is to God, his first priority. To have others to do the same doesn’t hurt, but to me, is not useful. I will take the words that I would give to St. Somebody, and use them to pray extra hard or longer to God.

Yes, we can pray directly to God and Catholics do. When I said my Novena for the Intercession of St. Anne, I said the Lord’s prayer after it each day. Now say your pastor’s mother was very sick and in the hospital and on Sunday he asked all his parishoners to pray for his mother, is that not useful? I don’t think so, he has more people praying with him now. It is the same scenario when we ask the intercession of the Saints in Heaven.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I heard once where someone used this analogy:

Do you like steak?

Yes, I do.

How do you like your steak?

Medium - rare.

Well, imagine this; a nice juicy steak made just the way you like it served to you on a garbage can lid…not too appealing is it? Well, imagine this; a nice juicy steak made just the way you like it, servde to you on a perfect golden plate…which would you prefer to take?

(I know this is somewhat corny, but think about it a bit…our hands are “dirty” with sin, and we don’t know how to pray as we ought - however, those saints in heaven have “pure” hands and they see God ‘face to face’ and they know ‘how to pray.’)

 

[RobNY]

skattas:

I really appreciate your thoughts…thank you! I hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I thought Catholics “side-step” prayers to God in the name of praying to others, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why didicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways). I’m so sorry if that wasn’t very clear. I’l get used to this ‘forum writing’ thing soon enough…I hope!!!

Teehee. I love this. It’s kind of fascinating to think of an economy of time. What you ask is fascinating. Isn’t it better to spend the time praying to God if that’s all that the saints/Mary will be doing anyway?

In other words, either A—> B —> C, or as you’d prefer A—> C.

I mean, what you’re saying is, either you’re praying to the Saints, who are then praying to God for you, or you’re praying right to God. Skip the middle man, cut right to the chase. We’re Americans, [edit, well, I am: perhaps I shouldn’t assume you are] we like things wholesale, not retail. Right?

But what about this alternate understanding. By praying to the Saints, and/or to Mary, they continue to pray to God for you as well as your own prayers. So you pray to Mary, and then she prays to God for you. Not just at the very moment that you pray to her, of course. So now you’ve got… A ----> C and B----> C. Whoo. Strength in numbers.

Would you rather pray to God solely, or have a big group of people praying for you? Is it better to have one person offering prayers, or two?

Just things to think about.

Of course, this is either the dumbest or the most profound thing I’ve ever said.

 

[Sherlock]

skattas:

whoa…winning his friendship and favor?! Is that what you feel you have to do?! Is that what you feel you have to do for your human father? For your sake, I hope not. The God I know loves his children unconditionally because they are exactly that…his children. That’s all it takes. Just as you love your mother (or wife and children–if it is so) , you don’t need them to prove they are worthy of your friendship and favor. Nor do they have to compete against one another for these things.

As for Mary cleaning up the mess before it is given to her son…I tend to disagree. Remember, throughout the Bible, no one had to be “cleaned up” before seeing Jesus. The lepars didn’t take a bath, the dead weren’t primped up to be risen, the sick, possessed, diseased, and everything of the like did not have to go through anyone, including Mary to have any more chance of recieving God’s mercy. Jesus said we must only : “ASK”. That is all the people in the Bible did, and that is all we need to do.

My God is a compassionate, loving and powerful God. When I think of him, I feel secure and proud to be loved the way he loves me. I do good not to win his favor, but because I love him enough to know that he gave me a gift of life, and I would not EVER want to disappoint Him by dishonoring this gift. I use my life to bring those who seek refuge and peace to a God who can love them unconditionally. I know he knows I am full of sin, and not worthy of his grace, but he constantly rminds me that he will never stop giving it to me freely as long as I ask for it. My relationship is me and Him; a friendship, a relationship. It is the relationship I have with my human father, unique to all others, not in need of a mediator or helper. It is an incredible dydad. It is an wondeful feeling to experience this everyday. From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him. I hope you feel this, and I am just very mistaken, but if you don’t, I pray that one day you’ll know the love of a good and perfect Father.

Thanks for your thoughts.
God Bless and Love you Always

Skattas,

Thank you for your polite responses. I think that one of the key differences that might explain the difference between our perspectives is that we believe that we and our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether living or dead, are part of a FAMILY. It’s not just “me and Jesus”. Just as we believe that praying for one another is effective and useful, so we ask for their prayers when we are in need. It’s as simple as that, really. God is about relationship, and I can’t selfishly think only about myself, but must concern myself with the rest of my “family”. They, too, are concerned about me.

You wrote, " From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him."

I think you are uncharitably putting the worst possible interpretation on what this poster wrote. Before you make such an extreme statement, it would be more charitable to draw this particular poster out in order to determine if their views are what you think they are.

Also, you state that God loves his children “unconditionally”. He may love us unconditionally, but there are still requirements (conditions) for our forgiveness, such as “forgive us our trespasses, AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us”, or, in the parable of the unforgiving servant, a person is punished (after intially recieving mercy from his master) because he did not have mercy on others. There are other verses in Scripture that I could go into, but I don’t have the time now.

God bless.

 

[Zooey]

Skattas, I have a little different perspective on this, because I am not Catholic. I am Methodist, & like you, I am a born again Christian…But I pray to Mary a lot!!
Why? Because I think of her as a wonderful prayer partner. I grew up on the idea of asking others to join me in prayer, & often, as I’m sure you experience, there is a subtle nudge from the Spirit of God as to whom to ask to join in prayer.
I have found throughout my life that, often as not, the person I felt led to ask was Jesus’ wonderful mother. At first this seemed odd–not something I had learned in Sunday school class!..But I began to try it, & I soon came to realize that my prayer life was being rejuvenated, being filled with real power. But I know that that does not come from me! (I am just an ordinary person like everybody else I know…). It comes from the Communion of the saints…My poor prayers are joined with those of all my deceased loved ones, & with great saints of history, of whom, Mary the beloved mother of Jesus is surely the closest to Him!
In any case, you have come to the right place to learn…There are a lot of great Christian people here, who know a lot more than I do…
In any case, God bless.

 

[Franz]

Zooey:

Skattas, I have a little different perspective on this, because I am not Catholic. I am Methodist, & like you, I am a born again Christian…But I pray to Mary a lot!!
Why? Because I think of her as a wonderful prayer partner. I grew up on the idea of asking others to join me in prayer, & often, as I’m sure you experience, there is a subtle nudge from the Spirit of God as to whom to ask to join in prayer.
I have found throughout my life that, often as not, the person I felt led to ask was Jesus’ wonderful mother. At first this seemed odd–not something I had learned in Sunday school class!..But I began to try it, & I soon came to realize that my prayer life was being rejuvenated, being filled with real power. But I know that that does not come from me! (I am just an ordinary person like everybody else I know…). It comes from the Communion of the saints…My poor prayers are joined with those of all my deceased loved ones, & with great saints of history, of whom, Mary the beloved mother of Jesus is surely the closest to Him!
In any case, you have come to the right place to learn…There are a lot of great Christian people here, who know a lot more than I do…
In any case, God bless.

Now, that’s perspective!

 

[Franz]

Zooey:

Skattas, I have a little different perspective on this, because I am not Catholic. I am Methodist, & like you, I am a born again Christian…But I pray to Mary a lot!!
Why? Because I think of her as a wonderful prayer partner. I grew up on the idea of asking others to join me in prayer, & often, as I’m sure you experience, there is a subtle nudge from the Spirit of God as to whom to ask to join in prayer.
I have found throughout my life that, often as not, the person I felt led to ask was Jesus’ wonderful mother. At first this seemed odd–not something I had learned in Sunday school class!..But I began to try it, & I soon came to realize that my prayer life was being rejuvenated, being filled with real power. But I know that that does not come from me! (I am just an ordinary person like everybody else I know…). It comes from the Communion of the saints…My poor prayers are joined with those of all my deceased loved ones, & with great saints of history, of whom, Mary the beloved mother of Jesus is surely the closest to Him!
In any case, you have come to the right place to learn…There are a lot of great Christian people here, who know a lot more than I do…
In any case, God bless.

Now, that’s perspective! Many Protestants actually share this view as well, inlcuding Anglicans, Episcopalian, Lutherans, etc, all to varying degrees.

 

[Franz]

skattas:

whoa…winning his friendship and favor?! Is that what you feel you have to do?! Is that what you feel you have to do for your human father? For your sake, I hope not. The God I know loves his children unconditionally because they are exactly that…his children. That’s all it takes. Just as you love your mother (or wife and children–if it is so) , you don’t need them to prove they are worthy of your friendship and favor. Nor do they have to compete against one another for these things.

As for Mary cleaning up the mess before it is given to her son…I tend to disagree. Remember, throughout the Bible, no one had to be “cleaned up” before seeing Jesus. The lepars didn’t take a bath, the dead weren’t primped up to be risen, the sick, possessed, diseased, and everything of the like did not have to go through anyone, including Mary to have any more chance of recieving God’s mercy. Jesus said we must only : “ASK”. That is all the people in the Bible did, and that is all we need to do.

My God is a compassionate, loving and powerful God. When I think of him, I feel secure and proud to be loved the way he loves me. I do good not to win his favor, but because I love him enough to know that he gave me a gift of life, and I would not EVER want to disappoint Him by dishonoring this gift. I use my life to bring those who seek refuge and peace to a God who can love them unconditionally. I know he knows I am full of sin, and not worthy of his grace, but he constantly rminds me that he will never stop giving it to me freely as long as I ask for it. My relationship is me and Him; a friendship, a relationship. It is the relationship I have with my human father, unique to all others, not in need of a mediator or helper. It is an incredible dydad. It is an wondeful feeling to experience this everyday. From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him. I hope you feel this, and I am just very mistaken, but if you don’t, I pray that one day you’ll know the love of a good and perfect Father.

Thanks for your thoughts.
God Bless and Love you Always

Read post #37. St. Louis De Montfort used very colourful and poetic language regarding our Blessed mother. The pope warns us of being overzealous in our love for her, and to maintain proper honour. Also, sometimes people write in a way that may at first glance seem absurd, so ask the questions and they will be clarified. Remember, as Catholics, we are not required to have a devotion to Mary, that is up to the individual. Understanding the Communion of Saints though, you can see why Christians from many denominations use their intercession in prayer.

By the way, great to see you back, I thought we lost ya

 

[barsapp]

skattas:

The God I know…My God is a compassionate, loving and powerful God…My relationship is me and Him…I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him.

each protestant is his own particular church, his own shepherd, his own gate to heaven, his own advocator, his own interpreter, his own pope, his own invented god…

 

[legeorge]

As for Mary cleaning up the mess before it is given to her son…I tend to disagree. Remember, throughout the Bible, no one had to be “cleaned up” before seeing Jesus. The lepars didn’t take a bath, the dead weren’t primped up to be risen, the sick, possessed, diseased, and everything of the like did not have to go through anyone, including Mary to have any more chance of recieving God’s mercy. Jesus said we must only : “ASK”. That is all the people in the Bible did, and that is all we need to do.

One difference here is that you are speaking of when Jesus humbled himself, became a man, and came to earth to be with us. No, he did not require people to “primp up” to be in his company here on earth. But we are not talking about earth now. We are talking about heaven. Where you are sending your prayers. Remember that “nothing unclean shall enter it”. That is what Scripture says. We are imperfect and sinful creatures. So the idea of letting someone who is already perfected in heaven laying our prayers at the feet of the Father is not unreasonable. In fact, it is scriptual. (go back and see where someone already posted the best references)

Do we not all belong to the Body of Christ? “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Gal. 2:20) Would this intimate union with Christ and each other cease when we die? I don’t think so. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27) The saints in heaven are even closer to us than when they were on earth, because it’s Christ who makes us one. They are the “spirits of just men made perfect.” (Heb. 12:23) They are experiencing a union with God (and therefore with us) that we cannot fathom. Peter tells us that we will come to “share in the divine nature, after escaping the corruption that is in the world” (1Peter 1:4) If we could ask them to pray for us while they were still here, we can certainly ask them to now that they have joined in perfect union with Christ in heaven, while we are still soiled by the sins of this world.

Remember also, that without Mary, your salvation would not have been possible. God is purely divine. He does not die. In order to save us, he had to become man and die on the Cross for us. Jesus had to get the ability to die from his Mother. She gave him the *humanity * that helped him bring us to his Divinity. Without his human nature, Jesus could not have suffered for us and we could not enter into his divinity. He would not have had flesh to be scourged for you, blood to shed for you. Etc. God asked Mary to bring His Son into the world and give him the humanity he needed to bring us Salvation. I think that it is right and proper to honor her, and not ignore her as many Protestants do. Even reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin recognized Mary’s role and honored her. And Jesus, while dying on the Cross, gave His mother to us and the Church. From the very Cross that brought about our Salvation!

 

[Catholic_Tom]

barsapp:

each protestant is his own particular church, his own shepherd, his own gate to heaven, his own advocator, his own interpreter, his own pope, his own invented god…

I don’t think Skattas meant to be uncharitable. We must be careful here as I think it’s quite easy to misunderstand someone’s intentions on what they write. I think skattas deserves the benefit of the doubt in their intentions.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

legeorge:

One difference here is that you are speaking of when Jesus humbled himself, became a man, and came to earth to be with us. No, he did not require people to “primp up” to be in his company here on earth. But we are not talking about earth now. We are talking about heaven. Where you are sending your prayers. Remember that “nothing unclean shall enter it”. That is what Scripture says. We are imperfect and sinful creatures. So the idea of letting someone who is already perfected in heaven laying our prayers at the feet of the Father is not unreasonable. In fact, it is scriptual. (go back and see where someone already posted the best references)

Do we not all belong to the Body of Christ? “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Gal. 2:20) Would this intimate union with Christ and each other cease when we die? I don’t think so. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27) The saints in heaven are even closer to us than when they were on earth, because it’s Christ who makes us one. They are the “spirits of just men made perfect.” (Heb. 12:23) They are experiencing a union with God (and therefore with us) that we cannot fathom. Peter tells us that we will come to “share in the divine nature, after escaping the corruption that is in the world” (1Peter 1:4) If we could ask them to pray for us while they were still here, we can certainly ask them to now that they have joined in perfect union with Christ in heaven, while we are still soiled by the sins of this world.

Remember also, that without Mary, your salvation would not have been possible. God is purely divine. He does not die. In order to save us, he had to become man and die on the Cross for us. Jesus had to get the ability to die from his Mother. She gave him the *humanity *

that helped him bring us to his Divinity. Without his human nature, Jesus could not have suffered for us and we could not enter into his divinity. He would not have had flesh to be scourged for you, blood to shed for you. Etc. God asked Mary to bring His Son into the world and give him the humanity he needed to bring us Salvation. I think that it is right and proper to honor her, and not ignore her as many Protestants do. Even reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin recognized Mary’s role and honored her. And Jesus, while dying on the Cross, gave His mother to us and the Church. From the very Cross that brought about our Salvation!



Couldn’t have said it better myself. God willed it to be done this way, and that speaks volumes for God’s plan with Mary in the Divine plan. How can anyone ignore this importance. Jesus could have just appeared out of nowhere, but no, Mary was chosen, and it was her obedience that un-tied Eve’s disobedience!

 

[WBB]

skattas:

My God is a compassionate, loving and powerful God. When I think of him, I feel secure and proud to be loved the way he loves me. I do good not to win his favor, but because I love him enough to know that he gave me a gift of life, and I would not EVER want to disappoint Him by dishonoring this gift. I use my life to bring those who seek refuge and peace to a God who can love them unconditionally. I know he knows I am full of sin, and not worthy of his grace, but he constantly rminds me that he will never stop giving it to me freely as long as I ask for it. My relationship is me and Him; a friendship, a relationship. It is the relationship I have with my human father, unique to all others, not in need of a mediator or helper. It is an incredible dydad. It is an wondeful feeling to experience this everyday. From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him. I hope you feel this, and I am just very mistaken, but if you don’t, I pray that one day you’ll know the love of a good and perfect Father.

And this is probably a significant difference in the way Catholics view their relationship with God, for it is not simply a relationship between me and God. God is not my friend, He is my Father as well as my brother, and the spirit of love. It is not that what you say is untrue with regard to a relationship with God, however, it is not entirely what God had in mind when he sent his Son into the world. God intended us to be a family and not an only child. Our relationship with God is indeed important, but to diminish the relationship with your brothers and sisters in the Church is to diminish your relationship with Christ since the Church is His Body. For this reason, the relationship that Catholics have with God is quite personal, but it is familial and community as well. The fullness of the relationship with God is with Him and with the Church, the Body of Christ. We would never view our relationship with God as simply God and me.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

skattas:

I really appreciate your thoughts…thank you! I hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I thought Catholics “side-step” prayers to God in the name of praying to others, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why didicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways). I’m so sorry if that wasn’t very clear. I’l get used to this ‘forum writing’ thing soon enough…I hope!!!

Hi skattas!

You could say the same thing about asking people you know here on earth to pray for you. Why dedicate even one second asking someone here on earth to pray for you when that time could be spent your asking God yourself?

Time asking someone to pray for you is never time wasted!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic_Tom]

WBB:

Our relationship with God is indeed important, but to diminish the relationship with your brothers and sisters in the Church is to diminish your relationship with Christ since the Church is His Body.

 

[RyanL]

Skattas,

I’m glad to see you back! I hope all is well with SuperStar, and that the both of you treasure the relationship the Lord has brought to you.

1 Corinthians 12: 14-21 -
“Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say " Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be a part of that body. And if the ear should say “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be a part of that body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be ? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact, God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand “I don’t need you!” and the hand cannot say to the feet “I don’t need you!”

What you are saying when you say, “I don’t need anyone but Jesus” is that you don’t need the other parts of the Body of Christ. The Bible says otherwise. Does that make sense?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[maesoph]

skattas:

My problem arises when this is contradicted by the notion of being able to talk to and ask those who have passed on (Mary, the Saints—people who were exactly that…people), and concern them with the troubles of the world. With this said, another problem arises: why would I pray to Mary or any other, when I can talk freely to Jesus himself? The way I look at it is: ‘Why would I talk to the bouncer when I know the owner of the club?’.

Here is the line that I have drawn in my prayer life… All worship and thanksgiving, which is the vast majority of my prayer life, goes to Christ directly. In addition, any spiritual requests that I have such as asking for help to be a good father, husband, etc. etc. go to Christ also. However, any material requests that I may pray about go to the saints first. For instance, to sell my house, I did the proverbial St. Joseph statue along with prayers to St. Joseph… Prayers asking for spiritual strength go to Christ and St. Michael.

If you understood the Communion of Saints, you would see the beauty in this, as all mediatorship, intercessions, etc. all happen within the body of Christ - no matter who the instrument is.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

RyanL:

Skattas,

I’m glad to see you back! I hope all is well with SuperStar, and that the both of you treasure the relationship the Lord has brought to you.

What you are saying when you say, “I don’t need anyone but Jesus” is that you don’t need the other parts of the Body of Christ. The Bible says otherwise. Does that make sense?

God Bless,
RyanL

Precisely. If you believe that we are all part of the SAME body of Christ (Scipture teaches there is only ONE body of Christ, not 2 seperated by the earthly reality of death), both here and on heaven, and if you have EVER asked someone else to pray for you before a big test, event, etc., then you believe as Catholics do and also agree with Scripture in regards to the communion of saints, and you probably don’t even realize that.

Also, I see in your previous post skattas, that you had a problem with " (“If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”). There is nothing wrong with this, because you and I are not perfectly righteous like Mary and the Saints, yet Mary has a unique role as evident by scripture and her obvious role in God’s divine plan. Catholics didn’t make this up, God did, the Catholic Church only affirms a truth already true in heaven.

The rest of the post regarding St. Louis de Montfort is ful of analogy’s which ought not to be taken literally, but just to prove a point.

Hope this helps, God bless.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Hey there skattas!!!

Long time no speak!
I hope that all is well with you.

Drop me a line sometime since we have not spoken in so long. I’d like to send you a picture of our new daughter.

Dan