Questions from an Evangelical

[MamaGeek]

skattas:

Why dedicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways).

Then why spend even one second asking a friend to pray for you? Why ask for prayers from even one fellow Christian, when you could use that time to pray to God? Why, during Church services, do you ask the congregation to pray for so-and-so who has cancer, or so-and-so, whose son is a soldier in Iraq, or whatever? Wouldn’t it be better for the person in question to just pray directly to God?

Then there are people who do not pray. How many family members or friends do you have who aren’t practicing Christians? Don’t you ever pray for them? If we are not supposed to pray for each other, then who would pray for them?

If you think of it in terms of time, you could ask Mary to pray for you, then pray to the Father, while Mary is praying for you at the same time. You could pray with the Saints.

If you look at the final words of the Hail Mary, we say, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death.” If you consider how many times we Catholics pray the Hail Mary (50 times just in one rosary!), just imagine how much praying Mary will do for us *at the hour of our death, *when prayer may not even be possible on our part.

The final point I’d like to make, however, is that no Catholic is ever required to pray to any Saint. The Communion of Saints is a required belief, but if you feel uncomfortable asking Mary or any Saint for prayers, then you don’t have to do it.

 

[skattas]

E.E.N.S.:

I heard once where someone used this analogy:

Do you like steak?

Yes, I do.

How do you like your steak?

Medium - rare.

Well, imagine this; a nice juicy steak made just the way you like it served to you on a garbage can lid…not too appealing is it? Well, imagine this; a nice juicy steak made just the way you like it, servde to you on a perfect golden plate…which would you prefer to take?

(I know this is somewhat corny, but think about it a bit…our hands are “dirty” with sin, and we don’t know how to pray as we ought - however, those saints in heaven have “pure” hands and they see God ‘face to face’ and they know ‘how to pray.’)

I can understand your analogy (and it’s rather creative, I might add!), but it still comes down to this: sin IS dirty, it was meant to be dirty, and God expects it to be dirty, otherwise, why would we need to wash it away with the blood of the Lamb?! There is NO way one can pretty up sin, not even enough to look at or offer to the most Holy of Holies.

It also comes down to how we view Mary and the Saints. WeEvangelicals know her to be human and with sin (only Jesus walked the earth and was without sin), so to ask another sinful being to clean up our sin a bit, makes no sense. Otherwaise, I would ask my best friend to do it, then offer it to God in prayer. It’s the same thing to us. Now, I know that Mary is Jesus’ Mother, but once again, our beliefs clash. I don’t believe that the dead have any knowledge of the living world, so you can see what I mean and where the problem lies. But I must tell you that I appreciate your beliefs, and analogy. Thanks!

 

[skattas]

Sherlock:

Skattas,

Thank you for your polite responses. I think that one of the key differences that might explain the difference between our perspectives is that we believe that we and our brothers and sisters in Christ, whether living or dead, are part of a FAMILY. It’s not just “me and Jesus”. Just as we believe that praying for one another is effective and useful, so we ask for their prayers when we are in need. It’s as simple as that, really. God is about relationship, and I can’t selfishly think only about myself, but must concern myself with the rest of my “family”. They, too, are concerned about me.

You wrote, " From your post, I’m not quite sure if we share the same God or the same belief in him."

I think you are uncharitably putting the worst possible interpretation on what this poster wrote. Before you make such an extreme statement, it would be more charitable to draw this particular poster out in order to determine if their views are what you think they are.

Also, you state that God loves his children “unconditionally”. He may love us unconditionally, but there are still requirements (conditions) for our forgiveness, such as “forgive us our trespasses, AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us”, or, in the parable of the unforgiving servant, a person is punished (after intially recieving mercy from his master) because he did not have mercy on others. There are other verses in Scripture that I could go into, but I don’t have the time now.

God bless.

I hope I didn’t make you think that we have nothing to do when it comes to forgiveness. I am fully aware that not only must we ask for it, but we must be willing to make the effort to realise the problem, and not do it again. God knows the purity of your heart and requests. I know that we must forgive others in order to be forgiven ourselves…glad to see we’re on the same page somewhere!

 

[Franz]

skattas:

I don’t believe that the dead have any knowledge of the living world, so you can see what I mean and where the problem lies. But I must tell you that I appreciate your beliefs, and analogy. Thanks!

scripture says otherwise

What makes you think that those alive in Christ with the vision of God, have human limitations?

How Do Saints Hear Us?

It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit. John 10:38 …but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead. John 14:10-11 Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated “community” meaning “in-union-with.” John 1:3 What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness. John 17:11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. John 17:21-22 … so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life–a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly. 1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

John also had an insight that reflected our destiny. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[Franz]

skattas:

I can understand your analogy (and it’s rather creative, I might add!), but it still comes down to this: sin IS dirty, it was meant to be dirty, and God expects it to be dirty, otherwise, why would we need to wash it away with the blood of the Lamb?! There is NO way one can pretty up sin, not even enough to look at or offer to the most Holy of Holies.

You are exactly right, and the blood of the unblemished lamb, Jesus Christ, the perfect all sufficient sacrifice, has made those in heaven PERFECTLY righteous, where as NO ONE on earth is close to this.

 

[Franz]

skattas:

It also comes down to how we view Mary and the Saints. WeEvangelicals know her to be human and with sin (only Jesus walked the earth and was without sin), so to ask another sinful being to clean up our sin a bit, makes no sense. Otherwaise, I would ask my best friend to do it, then offer it to God in prayer. It’s the same thing to us.

Mary’s sinlessness (or sinfullness as you probably understand) is probably a topic for another thread.

skattas:

I can understand your analogy (and it’s rather creative, I might add!), but it still comes down to this: sin IS dirty, it was meant to be dirty, and God expects it to be dirty, otherwise, why would we need to wash it away with the blood of the Lamb?! There is NO way one can pretty up sin, not even enough to look at or offer to the most Holy of Holies.

You are exactly right, and the blood of the unblemished lamb, Jesus Christ, the perfect all sufficient sacrifice, has made those in heaven PERFECTLY righteous, where as NO ONE on earth is close to this.

 

[save_me_Jesus]

skattas:

I really appreciate your thoughts…thank you! I hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I thought Catholics “side-step” prayers to God in the name of praying to others, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why didicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways). I’m so sorry if that wasn’t very clear. I’l get used to this ‘forum writing’ thing soon enough…I hope!!!

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask.

The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

Courtesy www.catholic.com

 

[save_me_Jesus]

skattas:

I don’t believe that the dead have any knowledge of the living world, so you can see what I mean and where the problem lies. But I must tell you that I appreciate your beliefs, and analogy. Thanks!

Can They Hear Us? One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Courtesy www.catholic.com

 

[skattas]

legeorge:

One difference here is that you are speaking of when Jesus humbled himself, became a man, and came to earth to be with us. No, he did not require people to “primp up” to be in his company here on earth. But we are not talking about earth now. We are talking about heaven. Where you are sending your prayers. Remember that “nothing unclean shall enter it”. That is what Scripture says. We are imperfect and sinful creatures. So the idea of letting someone who is already perfected in heaven laying our prayers at the feet of the Father is not unreasonable. In fact, it is scriptual. (go back and see where someone already posted the best references)

Do we not all belong to the Body of Christ? “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Gal. 2:20) Would this intimate union with Christ and each other cease when we die? I don’t think so. “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:27) The saints in heaven are even closer to us than when they were on earth, because it’s Christ who makes us one. They are the “spirits of just men made perfect.” (Heb. 12:23) They are experiencing a union with God (and therefore with us) that we cannot fathom. Peter tells us that we will come to “share in the divine nature, after escaping the corruption that is in the world” (1Peter 1:4) If we could ask them to pray for us while they were still here, we can certainly ask them to now that they have joined in perfect union with Christ in heaven, while we are still soiled by the sins of this world.

Remember also, that without Mary, your salvation would not have been possible. God is purely divine. He does not die. In order to save us, he had to become man and die on the Cross for us. Jesus had to get the ability to die from his Mother. She gave him the *humanity *

that helped him bring us to his Divinity. Without his human nature, Jesus could not have suffered for us and we could not enter into his divinity. He would not have had flesh to be scourged for you, blood to shed for you. Etc. God asked Mary to bring His Son into the world and give him the humanity he needed to bring us Salvation. I think that it is right and proper to honor her, and not ignore her as many Protestants do. Even reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin recognized Mary’s role and honored her. And Jesus, while dying on the Cross, gave His mother to us and the Church. From the very Cross that brought about our Salvation!

I’m very sorry if you came across some Protestants that ignore Mary. I do not, no one I know does, and we ARE in fact taught to honor Mary for the task she took on. We acknowledge what she has done and admire her for that. But at the same time, we recognize that she is human, and with sin, and that the Lord, just like with the rest of us, had to ASK her to take on that endeavour. The difference lies in where we put our boundaries. We do not pray to her, or believe that she could plead for us to her Son. Just as many women after her, the Lord used her for a greater purpose, and she served him well. She is a woman above all others, and an example of a true servant and follower of God. She is an incredible woman, and that should be recognized regardless of denomination. I’m sorry on behalf of all the people that have made you believe otherwise.

 

[skattas]

barsapp:

each protestant is his own particular church, his own shepherd, his own gate to heaven, his own advocator, his own interpreter, his own pope, his own invented god…

What?! I’m very sorry, but I find this extremely offensive. Perhaps you would be better to be more knowledgeable on the Protestant faith before you write such strong and false statements. The last one " his own invented god" is a horrible thing to write. Please, either be respectful of others and be informed, or refrain from writing here. I am genuine in my questions and search, and I don’t need to be patronised. Thank you.

God Bless

 

[skattas]

Catholic Tom:

legeorge:

Couldn’t have said it better myself. God willed it to be done this way, and that speaks volumes for God’s plan with Mary in the Divine plan. How can anyone ignore this importance. Jesus could have just appeared out of nowhere, but no, Mary was chosen, and it was her obedience that un-tied Eve’s disobedience!

I completely agree that Mary was chosen, but she also had to ACCEPT this scary task. God gave us free will, and that includes Mary. She could have in fact said no. You see, this is where another problem comes in for me. I know that the Catholic faith teaches the Immaculate conception, and Mary being born without sin and such…but here is my obstacle: that theory leaves no room for free will. If God imparted grace to Mary at birth, then Mary wouldn’t have had the chance to exercise the free will God gave to all his children. So in fact, anyone who admires her strangth and dedication to God, does this in vain? God would not impart what he did for Mary at birth if in the end, she would not be apart of the plan, would he? Do you see where my obstacle is? I hope I made a little bit of sense! If not, please tell me, and I’ll try to clear it up. Thanks for your time.

Your sister in Christ

 

[skattas]

WBB:

And this is probably a significant difference in the way Catholics view their relationship with God, for it is not simply a relationship between me and God. God is not my friend, He is my Father as well as my brother, and the spirit of love. It is not that what you say is untrue with regard to a relationship with God, however, it is not entirely what God had in mind when he sent his Son into the world. God intended us to be a family and not an only child. Our relationship with God is indeed important, but to diminish the relationship with your brothers and sisters in the Church is to diminish your relationship with Christ since the Church is His Body. For this reason, the relationship that Catholics have with God is quite personal, but it is familial and community as well. The fullness of the relationship with God is with Him and with the Church, the Body of Christ. We would never view our relationship with God as simply God and me.

Hang on a second!..oops, little misunderstanding! he relationship when it comes down to it, IS in fact you and God. No one stands next to you on judgement day. BUT we are strongly based on community and fellowship. The church supports it’s members and the members support each other, as does your church. We have a strong family-like foundation to our church and we are all there to help one another, and to keep each other focused on living a true life, one deserving of God’s grace.

I’m so sorry I gave you the wrong impression. I’m really not very good at expressing myself on these things, I new at this! Thank you for your thoughts, and I promise to be more clear and cover all the corners next time!

God Bless

 

[save_me_Jesus]

God bless you Skattas.

I see there have been so many wonderful responses to your questions, and it is my hope that they have helped you. There are some questions that you have not addressed, that have been posed to you. Scripture clearly backs the communion of saints doctrine, all being part of the same body of Christ, saints in heaven being fully aware of the happenings on earth and showing concern as well, and if you understand all this, and you understand that you ask others to pray for you all the time, then the communion of saints (and by default, their intercession), is quite understandable and logical. Review some of the posts above. Do not ignore the fact that the prayers of the righteous availeth much, and who more righteous than those already in the presence of God?

Now you seem to be disagreeing with this doctrine, and now venturing on to the topic of Mary and the immaculate conception, etc. I strongly suggest you start a new thread, as others have recommended, as you will only start to get confused.

God bless you in your search. It took me a long time to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, but more so because of my pride and prior teaching raised in a Protestant family. Once the veil was lifted, I saw Scripture in a whole new light and the Holy Spirit revealed to me the truth of the Catholic faith amidst the constant anti-Catholic attitude of Protestant America.

If you are looking for answers, you have come to the right place. Don’t forget to check the many wonderful articles at www.catholic.com .

 

[Pax]

skattas:

Catholic Tom:

I completely agree that Mary was chosen, but she also had to ACCEPT this scary task. God gave us free will, and that includes Mary. She could have in fact said no. You see, this is where another problem comes in for me. I know that the Catholic faith teaches the Immaculate conception, and Mary being born without sin and such…but here is my obstacle: that theory leaves no room for free will. If God imparted grace to Mary at birth, then Mary wouldn’t have had the chance to exercise the free will God gave to all his children. So in fact, anyone who admires her strangth and dedication to God, does this in vain? God would not impart what he did for Mary at birth if in the end, she would not be apart of the plan, would he? Do you see where my obstacle is? I hope I made a little bit of sense! If not, please tell me, and I’ll try to clear it up. Thanks for your time.

Your sister in Christ

skattas,

Your concerns about free will and Mary are misplaced. Mary was simply saved from original sin in a more glorious fashion than we are. The saving grace given to Mary and the saving grace given to us makes us all a new creation. Under no circumstances does the saving grace of God remove His gift of free will. Grace is the great enabler that frees us from committing sin. This is beautifully pointed out in John 8:30-36 where it says, "As he spoke thus, many believed in him. Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Clearly, the freedom Jesus is talking about is freedom from committing sin. Paul talks about this same freedom in his letters. The gifts of grace given to us to avoid sin in no way hinder our free will. We still make choices but the efficacious benefits of God’s grace enable us to overcome sin. The following verses of scripture will further reinforce the point about the enabling power of God’s grace.

Psalm 40:10
I have not hidden your saving help within my heart, I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation;

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence. When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by regulations about food, which have not benefited those who observe them.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As a Catholic who has several times been mistaken for a Protestant I like to imagine I may be able to help ​

God is Infinite Goodness - as “the LORD is good to all”, He gives good things. God had nothing created to Love - so He created things in order to Love them. Not because He could “gain” - but because they could. To love God, is the truest & highest happiness of anything that is not God - that is, of a creature.

And creatures are immensely varied, so they love God in very different ways. That is how creation in Psalm 19 “shows forth” God’s glory - because creatures reflect their Creator by being the creatures He created them. Which means they point beyond themselves, as though saying, “I am created; do not stop at me, but raise your heart and mind to the God Who made me.” All creatures are signs of God’s Presence - they are (sort of) sacramental: they are not self-sufficient, but broadcast the fact that God is their Creator by the fact they are like God, yet are not God.

A sacrament is a sign: of the saving activity & Presence of God - it is a reality which sign-ifies grace & confers the grace of which it is a sign. In a broad sense, every existing thing is a grace, because all created by the sovereign generosity of God. They do not have to exist - yet they exist. The grace of the sacraments is different, because the grace sign-ified is “out of this world”; it is the Life of God Himself. To receive a sacrament, is to receive a share in God’s innermost Life. This would be blasphemous if it were not true.

The Saints are sacrament-like, for they are grace-filled human beings, for whom to live, is Christ. They live God’s own Life. They have been so completely united with Christ, that His effects are theirs - He prays for us to the Father; so do they. He loves us; so do they. What He wills for us, they do also. Not because He has been “demoted” to our state as creatures (He did that of His own accord when He became a man like us in all things but sin at His Incarnation), but because He has made them like Himself, by Loving them. God’s Love exalts creatures. They are not God - but, so far as creatures living by grace as able to be made alike to God in Christ, the saints become like Him, each according to the measure of the grace which each has received and has been faithful to.

And those who are like Christ, would be acting against their nature, and against their character as created grace-filled signs of Christ’s Presence in them, if they did not act like the Saints they are . They are meant to be reminders of Christ, parts of His Body (a “member” is a body part, and a person, after all), beings through whom He works, means to the universal confession of His Glory, evidences of His working - which is why their activity is united with His: they are admitted to the status of being sharers in His activity. They do & are perfectly in Heaven, what we are & do on earth imperfectly. They are “just men made perfect” - we are incomplete, but called to be complete. The Church on earth, is an incomplete mock-up of the Church in her perfection in Heaven: which is why Catholics need to practice - for practice makes perfect.

So love for the Saints in Heaven is not a replacement for love of the Father Who is theirs & ours - it is a result of God’s Love for us & them, and of ours for God and them. St. Philip Neri (for instance) can do nothing for anyone which God cannot do. God is Almighty - St. Philip Neri is not. No Saint we honour is any thing - without God. But the holiness of St. Philip, and the love shown by him, are signs of the fruitfulness of the Spirit of Christ in St. Philip. Mary is honoured because of the fruitfulness of the holiness of Christ in her; it is that, which draws people’s hearts to the Saints - the recognition that Christ is present in this person, powerfully, peacefully, joyfully, creatively: and that this person lets that Divine Love flood out from him or her; and does not get in the way of It, but serves It. The Saints decreased, that Christ might increase in them.Because the Saints were not filled with love of self, there was room for the Love of God to grow in, to purify, to sanctify them, and to transform them until they were capable of seeing God face to face. Because that is what we are made for - the Face-to-face vision of God (1 Corinthians 13).

That there are Saints for us to love, no more requires us to forget God than any other friendship with creatures does. If we love our parents, children, and friends, and do not disobey God in so doing, but, if anything, do exactly what He Wills that we do (see the Bible): how is it forgetfulness of God for us to love and honour and appreciate those in whom He has shown Himself to be fruitfully present ? What have we and they that is not from God ? Nothing. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Two things to remember about Mary:

1. She is a created being - and between creatures and the Creator there is an infinite distance which can be crossed only from God’s “side”. This, God has done, above all in the Incarnation, when God became “God-with-us”.

And one of the results, is that His “handmaid” Mary has been taken up to be where her Lord is. “Where I am, there shall my servant be”, has already begun to be fulfilled - for she was taken up into Heaven body and soul, so that her passing from this life might be patterned on that of Him who humbled Himself to be born of her so that He might be crucified, die, rise, and ascend to His Father’s right hand.

The reason for this is, that she began to follow Him to His Cross as soon as she heard that she would bear Him as her Son: for her sorrows began at the Annunciation, and reached their climax at the Cross. To love others, is to be vulnerable to what grieves them - and unless she did not love Him, she cannot (since she was a human being, and not a stone) have been spared sharing in His sorrows: as indeed the prophecy of Simeon in Luke 2.29-32 suggests. If she was not spared a share in His sufferings, it is hard to see how she can have been spared a share in His Glory.

1. She is holy in Christ - so she has been filled with God: not only, and not even primarily, because she is the mother of the Word made flesh; but because Christ the Author & the Source of Grace has completely fulfilled in and for her what He promises to all Christians. She has been filled with grace to a mind-boggling degree, solely because it was His good pleasure to do so for her. He owed her nothing - therefore, he gave her everything. ##

 

[Jennifer123]

Hi skattas and everyone-

I was lurking on this post trying to learn a few things myself (I am Catholic BTW but due to time limits, 2 boys under 2, I can’t participate all that much on this forum). In addition to all the wonderful posts here, I am also wondering if there’s a succinct answer to skattas’s query regarding why would those in heaven be at all interested or involved in what happens on Earth since they are in heaven?

It makes sense to me of course, as we are alive and united in Christ and nothing, not even death, can separate us from Him and each other. That being said, with the admonition to pray for each other, why wouldn’t a Christian in Heaven pray for us if we asked it of them? Just because they don’t want to be bothered with the trials and troubles of the fallen world they just escaped?

I do think that part of the problem is the Protestant tendency to be succinct when the issue at hand can’t be briefly discussed, but is there a way to see that those who have died in His mercy are indeed aware of Earthly concerns? Or is it just a matter of letting the Holy Spirit open the eyes of the heart?

Peace and God Bless! Thanks to all for your informative posts!

 

[Pax]

Jennifer123,

The answer to your question is contained within the context of the posts on this thread. In summary, we could say that the saints in heaven do care about us because they are part of the body of Christ just as we are. Scripture helps us in this regard. We can tell from the following passages that our relationship with them is not broken by death.

Jesus, himself, says in Matt 22:32 “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are more alive in Christ than we are. We also read in the Gospels that Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor. At the transfiguration Jesus is seen and heard speaking with Moses and Elijah. Apparently, Moses and Elijah were interested in what was going on with those living on earth, especially with Jesus.

The Catholic bible also contains the entirety of scripture. In 2 Maccabees 12:38-44 we read about prayer for the dead. In chapter 15 verses 11-16 we read about intercession by the saints.

Catholic understandings in this area are the most compatible with scripture, and are fully patterned on what we know of the heavenly members of the body of Christ. It’s important to keep in mind that we are all members of the body of Christ. Paul tells us in Romans 8:33-39, “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Those who are part of the body of Christ in heaven are still connected to those that are members of the body of Christ on earth. This is made even more clear by the unity described in Rev 5:13 where it says, “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

And yes, through Jesus, the saints are in some ways aware of what is happening on earth. Those in heaven are as Jesus tells us, “like angels.” And scripture tells us in Luke 15:10, " Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Obviously, those in heaven know something about what’s happening on earth. The bible gives us numerous examples of angels interacting with men. The book of Revelation 6:9 also cites an example of the martyrs being aware that God has not yet avenged their blood. This is not an exhaustive list of passages but it is sufficient to show that this is all part of God’s divine plan. God’s plan works only for good and everything within it magnifies and glorifies the Lord.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

Gottle of Geer (Michael),

I enjoyed the thoughtful reflections made in your last two posts.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

skattas:

Catholic Tom:

I completely agree that Mary was chosen, but she also had to ACCEPT this scary task. God gave us free will, and that includes Mary. She could have in fact said no. You see, this is where another problem comes in for me. I know that the Catholic faith teaches the Immaculate conception, and Mary being born without sin and such…but here is my obstacle: that theory leaves no room for free will. If God imparted grace to Mary at birth, then Mary wouldn’t have had the chance to exercise the free will God gave to all his children. So in fact, anyone who admires her strangth and dedication to God, does this in vain? God would not impart what he did for Mary at birth if in the end, she would not be apart of the plan, would he? Do you see where my obstacle is? I hope I made a little bit of sense! If not, please tell me, and I’ll try to clear it up. Thanks for your time.

Your sister in Christ

Couldn’t the same objection be made against the doctrine of election ? Yet it is in the NT.​

The elect receive grace to persevere - in this way, their salvation is assured, just as Christ promised in John 10: His own “shall not fall out of His hands”. That is His Will, and it is within His Power to fulfil His word, “which never comes back to Him empty, but accomplishes all” that He intends by speaking it. God works in such a way that His grace is irresistible, yet man’s will is in no way violated, but, on the contrary, is ennobled & perfected, by the irresistible and omnipotent power of the God Who wills that he should persevere.

Mary’s strength comes only from God - it is His work, in her, and He moves in her in such a way that her heart is entirely responsive to His. Her whole being is entirely open to Him - she is free to accept His command, is able to do so, has the capacity to do so, desires to do so, is constant in doing so, puts up no resistance in doing so, only because the Will of God was almightily at work in her, freely and fruitfully working in her so that she would love no will but His.

If anything, it begins to look as though the grace of her immaculate conception is what prepares her to be the person she needs to be if God is to do all that He Wills in her at the Annunciation.

It’s important to realise that man’s will, though free, is free, not to be indifferent as to whether good or evil is chosen, but to only choose what is good. The will is biassed toward good - specifically, to the supreme good, which is God. Our wills are designed to help us to gravitate toward God, because we are designed by God for God. So, for us to choose evil, is to act against our nature - it is an abuse of the will, not a right use of it: for in man, willing and acting are not identical. It is possible for man to use his understanding in such a way that he wills one thing, but does another - St. Paul has a moving chapter in Romans 7 about this problem. In God, no such conflict of will, understanding, and activity is possible, for God’s doing, understanding, and willing are one and the same thing.

To sin, is not an act of free will; it is an abuse of it. Instead of becoming free - and the more freely we act, the more we are able to act freely - we become slaves: to self, sin, death, and the devil. That’s why bad habits such as sins are such a bad thing: they are forms of slavery. Happily for us, Christ came to set the captives free. Slavery leads to deeper slavery - and love of God, leads to deeper love of God, and to fuller freedom, and to wider scope for that freedom. Slavery to self leads to death - slavery to God leads to perfect freedom. Mary was so deep in slavery to God, that her freedom would have been immense: for her to choose freely, was the same as for God to work freely in her to accomplish His Will in her. And what is true of her, is far truer of her Son. ##