Questions from an Evangelical

[save_me_Jesus]

Pax:

Gottle of Geer (Michael),

I enjoyed the thoughtful reflections made in your last two posts.

ditto, magnificent Michael

 

[Jennifer123]

Pax:

Jennifer123,

The answer to your question is contained within the context of the posts on this thread. In summary, we could say that the saints in heaven do care about us because they are part of the body of Christ just as we are. Scripture helps us in this regard. We can tell from the following passages that our relationship with them is not broken by death.

Jesus, himself, says in Matt 22:32 “‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” Those in heaven are more alive in Christ than we are. We also read in the Gospels that Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor. At the transfiguration Jesus is seen and heard speaking with Moses and Elijah. Apparently, Moses and Elijah were interested in what was going on with those living on earth, especially with Jesus.

The Catholic bible also contains the entirety of scripture. In 2 Maccabees 12:38-44 we read about prayer for the dead. In chapter 15 verses 11-16 we read about intercession by the saints.

Catholic understandings in this area are the most compatible with scripture, and are fully patterned on what we know of the heavenly members of the body of Christ. It’s important to keep in mind that we are all members of the body of Christ. Paul tells us in Romans 8:33-39, “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Those who are part of the body of Christ in heaven are still connected to those that are members of the body of Christ on earth. This is made even more clear by the unity described in Rev 5:13 where it says, “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!”

And yes, through Jesus, the saints are in some ways aware of what is happening on earth. Those in heaven are as Jesus tells us, “like angels.” And scripture tells us in Luke 15:10, " Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Obviously, those in heaven know something about what’s happening on earth. The bible gives us numerous examples of angels interacting with men. The book of Revelation 6:9 also cites an example of the martyrs being aware that God has not yet avenged their blood. This is not an exhaustive list of passages but it is sufficient to show that this is all part of God’s divine plan. God’s plan works only for good and everything within it magnifies and glorifies the Lord.

I hope this helps.

Yes it does, thank you.

 

[WBB]

Gottle of Geer:

skattas:

Couldn’t the same objection be made against the doctrine of election ? Yet it is in the NT.​

The elect receive grace to persevere - in this way, their salvation is assured, just as Christ promised in John 10: His own “shall not fall out of His hands”. That is His Will, and it is within His Power to fulfil His word, “which never comes back to Him empty, but accomplishes all” that He intends by speaking it. God works in such a way that His grace is irresistible, yet man’s will is in no way violated, but, on the contrary, is ennobled & perfected, by the irresistible and omnipotent power of the God Who wills that he should persevere.

Mary’s strength comes only from God - it is His work, in her, and He moves in her in such a way that her heart is entirely responsive to His. Her whole being is entirely open to Him - she is free to accept His command, is able to do so, has the capacity to do so, desires to do so, is constant in doing so, puts up no resistance in doing so, only because the Will of God was almightily at work in her, freely and fruitfully working in her so that she would love no will but His.

If anything, it begins to look as though the grace of her immaculate conception is what prepares her to be the person she needs to be if God is to do all that He Wills in her at the Annunciation.

It’s important to realise that man’s will, though free, is free, not to be indifferent as to whether good or evil is chosen, but to only choose what is good. The will is biassed toward good - specifically, to the supreme good, which is God. Our wills are designed to help us to gravitate toward God, because we are designed by God for God. So, for us to choose evil, is to act against our nature - it is an abuse of the will, not a right use of it: for in man, willing and acting are not identical. It is possible for man to use his understanding in such a way that he wills one thing, but does another - St. Paul has a moving chapter in Romans 7 about this problem. In God, no such conflict of will, understanding, and activity is possible, for God’s doing, understanding, and willing are one and the same thing.

To sin, is not an act of free will; it is an abuse of it. Instead of becoming free - and the more freely we act, the more we are able to act freely - we become slaves: to self, sin, death, and the devil. That’s why bad habits such as sins are such a bad thing: they are forms of slavery. Happily for us, Christ came to set the captives free. Slavery leads to deeper slavery - and love of God, leads to deeper love of God, and to fuller freedom, and to wider scope for that freedom. Slavery to self leads to death - slavery to God leads to perfect freedom. Mary was so deep in slavery to God, that her freedom would have been immense: for her to choose freely, was the same as for God to work freely in her to accomplish His Will in her

. And what is true of her, is far truer of her Son. ##

That is absolutely magnificent!! I especially love the last paragraph because people get so caught up in this “free will means that we are free to sin!” Now, could you go over to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox forum and explain this in reference to the Immaculate Conception?!? You do it more eloquently than anyone I have ever read!

 

[gardenswithkids]

skattas:

I know that the Catholic faith teaches the Immaculate conception, and Mary being born without sin and such…but here is my obstacle: that theory leaves no room for free will. If God imparted grace to Mary at birth, then Mary wouldn’t have had the chance to exercise the free will God gave to all his children.

I think others have explained the concept of free will better than I can, but I want to share a few thoughts. Adam and Eve, (although created directly by God rather than concieved in a human womb) were also created immaculate. They were also without original sin…until they commited it.

skattas:

So in fact, anyone who admires her strangth and dedication to God, does this in vain? God would not impart what he did for Mary at birth if in the end, she would not be apart of the plan, would he? Do you see where my obstacle is?

Aaah! So now maybe you understand Catholic theology a little better than you think! Catholic honor of Mary always reflects back glory to God for giving her grace! Catholic honor of saints always reflects back glory to God for giving them the grace to do whatever good they did. It’s all about God and His grace towards humanity.

We are free to accept or reject His grace, but we can do nothing good apart from God. The greater the grace He gives, the greater His glory if accepted but the greater sin it’s rejected. Hence Jesus said "from everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demamded." Luke 12:48

 

[Catholic_Tom]

(from staycatholic.com/praying_to_saints.htm)

Skattas,

To pray means to ask, not to worship. We do not pray to the saints instead of God. We pray to God and ask that the saints pray for and with us. Are we not to “bear one another’s burdens” (Galatians 6:2), and to “pray for one another” (James 5:16)? Were we not “all baptized into one body” (1 Corinthians 12:13)? Are not the saints in heaven still members of that body?

We know that “the prayer of a righteous person has great power” (James 5:16). Who could be more righteous or pray more fervently than those already perfected and in the Lord’s presence? We know that they care for us, "There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:7). And finally we see that they present our prayers along with their own to Jesus: “The four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with **golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” **(Revelation 5:8). Also, “And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne. **And the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” **(Revelation 8:3-4). Note that incense represents our prayers, and that the angels and elders in heaven present our prayers to God.

Mary receives special honor because she, who once cared for the physical body of Christ, now cares, through her intercession, for the mystical body of Christ (the Church). Devotion to Mary differs, just as devotion to family differs, from devotion to God. In no way does it imply equality with God. Even the Protestant reformers saw this as being consistent with Scripture. Martin Luther wrote in a prologue to the Magnificat, “May the tender mother of God herself procure for me the Spirit of wisdom profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers.” John Calvin, working on his “Institutes of the Christian Religion,” wrote, “We cannot celebrate the blessings given us in Christ without commemorating at the same time how high an honor God has granted to Mary when he chose to make her the mother of his only Son.” Ulrich Zwingli stated, “The more honor and love for Christ, the more also the esteem and honor for Mary.”

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

skattas:

It also comes down to how we view Mary and the Saints. WeEvangelicals know her to be human and with sin (only Jesus walked the earth and was without sin),

Aren’t those IN heaven without sin? I thought that’s what we were taking about, people IN heaven.

so to ask another sinful being to clean up our sin a bit, makes no sense.

How does asking someone to pray for you “clean up our sin a bit”. I’m not following you on that.

I don’t believe that the dead have any knowledge of the living world

Rev 5:8 shows people in heaven taking the prayers of those on earth to God. How do they do that without first, somehow, being made aware of them?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi!

In Hebrews 12:1 Paul speaks of a great cloud of witnesses that surrounds us. If they surround us couldn’t/wouldn’t they also be made aware of what is going on with us?

Some say they “witness” to us by their example, but couldn’t the context indicate that they could be witnessing what WE are doing?

Just a couple of thoughts.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Coder]

skattas:

With this said, another problem arises: why would I pray to Mary or any other, when I can talk freely to Jesus himself?

I think God gives Mary to us as mother by His grace and she is filled with His grace. By God’s grace, she is part of our relationship with Him by His will. She loves us as a mother loves her children.

 

[penntar]

We talk to them just as you would talk to a friend. Those who have gone to God before us, who served the Most High, are not ghosts. They serve God in the manner in which they are permitted. I can hardly establish the fact that I understand heavenly matters, however, it’s to our edification to recieve an answer from God. He is God! Our creator! The communion of Saints is a great comfort to me.

 

[skattas]

Catholic Tom:

Precisely. If you believe that we are all part of the SAME body of Christ (Scipture teaches there is only ONE body of Christ, not 2 seperated by the earthly reality of death), both here and on heaven, and if you have EVER asked someone else to pray for you before a big test, event, etc., then you believe as Catholics do and also agree with Scripture in regards to the communion of saints, and you probably don’t even realize that.

Also, I see in your previous post skattas, that you had a problem with " (“If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”). There is nothing wrong with this, because you and I are not perfectly righteous like Mary and the Saints, yet Mary has a unique role as evident by scripture and her obvious role in God’s divine plan. Catholics didn’t make this up, God did, the Catholic Church only affirms a truth already true in heaven.

The rest of the post regarding St. Louis de Montfort is ful of analogy’s which ought not to be taken literally, but just to prove a point.

Hope this helps, God bless.

See the problem arises when it comes to our beliefs, I don’t beleive that Mary, although blessed among women, and should be honored, still has sin, and the Saints as well, so to get them to make sure my requests are accepted is futile. I hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughs.

God Bless

 

[Franz]

skattas:

See the problem arises when it comes to our beliefs, I don’t beleive that Mary, although blessed among women, and should be honored, still has sin, and the Saints as well, so to get them to make sure my requests are accepted is futile. I hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughs.

God Bless

Those who live their lives according to Christ, are worthy of honor, your requests, as I’m sure you’ve take from above, are not futile, but unless you are perfectly righteous, then according to scripture, your prayers are NOT as effective as the saints in heaven, but not futile either as if you don’t request you won’t recieve. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but no one in heaven has SIN, whether or not you believed Mary had sin on earth, so I don’t quite see what you mean but hopefully you see what I mean.

Here is what the Catechism says about why we honor saints:

The Catechism of The Catholic Church.

Used with permission

946. After confessing ‘the holy catholic Church,’ the Apostle’s Creed adds ‘the communion of saints.’ In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: ‘What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?’ The communion of saints is the Church.

947. 'Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others…We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ since he is the head…Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments. As this Church is governed by one and the same spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.

948. The term communion of the saints, therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta) and among holy persons (sancti).

956. The intercession of the Saints. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in Heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…they do not cease to intercede to the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…so by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you more effectively than during my life. (Saint Dominic, dying, to his brothers.)

I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth. (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

957. Communion with the saints. It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself.

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their King and Master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples! (Martyrium Polycarpi, 17:Apostolic Fathers II/3, 396)

2683. The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those who the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise Him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were put in charge of many things. Their intercession is the most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

Excerpts taken from Cathechism of the Catholic ChurchCopyright © Concacan Inc. - LIBRERIA EDITRICE VATICANA, 1994, for the English translation in Canada. All rights reserved.

For the CCCB’s website. For the Publications Services site.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

My you certainly did stir up the hornets nest. Good for you. I was a member of a hard core evangelical church and they prayed for people at the services and in prayer groups. God knew what was needed and what the outcome was. He wants us as the church living and dead - remember HE is not bound by time, HE created time.

 

[Franz]

save me Jesus:

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask.

The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

Courtesy www.catholic.com

 

[HpyCatholic]

skattas:

See the problem arises when it comes to our beliefs, I don’t beleive that Mary, although blessed among women, and should be honored, still has sin, and the Saints as well, so to get them to make sure my requests are accepted is futile. I hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughs.

God Bless

Skattas,

Okay even if it were true that Mary sinned (for the sake of argument) would you not agree that the Saints and Mary are right now basking directly in the light of Christ and God while in their presence in heaven?

And if it is okay to ask others here on Earth to pray for us would it not make sense to ask those in heaven (even if they are/were sinners) to pray for us as well? They are in direct contact with Christ and God in heaven afterall.

 

[Elzee]

Skattas, here is another way to think of it…if I care enough for my friends and family while I am here on earth to pray for them, and can do this out of love, even with my sinful human nature, how could I not pray for them when I die and in heaven, when I have been fully sanctified and justified and am in the presence of God? My love at this point will be even greater, not less, than is on earth. How could I not do this for my family on earth, when my prayers would be even more helpful (in James,I believe, it talks about ‘the prayers of a righteous man availeth much’. Who is more righteous than a soul in heaven?) Another way to look at it is if Jesus is praying for us in heaven (our constant intercessor), I can’t imagine everyone else in heaven just ‘sitting around watching’ - I think just as they particpate in glorifying and praising God, they also participate in praying for their family (the Body of Christ) here on earth. I don’t know if this helps at all, but looking at it this way helped me as I was studying the Communion of Saints. Good luck as you continue to look for answers.

 

[scylla]

I think that it is great that you have mentioned that we should honor her and she is blessed.

It is common as a reaction to Catholics love for Mary for others to diminish her, even just to call her an incubater. She is blessed among women.

Now we just got to get past that belief that people who are in heaven, have no idea what is going on her, or don’t care or a version of that belief. Soul sleep etc…

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Strider]

skattas:

I don’t believe that the dead have any knowledge of the living world, so you can see what I mean and where the problem lies. But I must tell you that I appreciate your beliefs, and analogy. Thanks!

But in 1 Sam 28:16, when Saul has the Witch of Endor conjure up Samuel, Samuel knows not only what is hapenong to Saul, but that will happen in the future. Also, in Lk 16:19-31, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus indicates that the rich man knows his brothers are still sinning.
So from both the Old and New Testaments, we have examples of the dead being aware of happenings here on earth.
Just one comment on the sinlessness of Mary: Grace and sin cannot abide together. If Mary is “full of grace,” then she can have no sin.

 

[Jennifer123]

skattas:

See the problem arises when it comes to our beliefs, I don’t beleive that Mary, although blessed among women, and should be honored, still has sin, and the Saints as well, so to get them to make sure my requests are accepted is futile. I hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughs.

God Bless

I do see what you mean. To ask another question, don’t you honor YOUR mother? You don’t necessarily think your mother shouldn’t be honored because she has sinned in her life, do you?

Isn’t there anyone in your life that has lead a more exemplary life in Christ than yourself? Wouldn’t you treat them with the respect due someone who has devoted more of their life to Christ than even yourself? Even if they’ve sinned? (Haven’t we all?? )

Kinda rhetorical I guess since I’m biased!

 

[Pax]

skattas:

I really appreciate your thoughts…thank you! I hope I didn’t give anyone the impression that I thought Catholics “side-step” prayers to God in the name of praying to others, all I’m having trouble with is this: Why didicate even one prayer to anyone else when that prayer can go to God Himself? I almost feel that that prayer belongs to God, and it could have been used to communicate with Him (the whole point of prayer anyways). I’m so sorry if that wasn’t very clear. I’l get used to this ‘forum writing’ thing soon enough…I hope!!!

It has been my personal experience and observation of others that those that never engage in intercessory prayer, generally pray a lot less than those that do. Catholic prayer practices in no way reduce the amount of prayer directed to God. If anything they increase it. “Everything” in Catholic thought, teaching, and doctrine is ultimately Christ centered, and leads one ever closer to the Lord. Ask any Catholic what the center piece of our faith is, and they will tell you that it is the Eucharist. The Eucharist (the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ) is the source and summit of our faith. Everything Catholic, including prayer to Mary and the Saints, enhances our relationship with Christ and leads us to a deeper relationship with Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

[mark_a]

JimG:

One might as well ask why, when we are in heaven, we would bother to communicate with others there–our relatives and friends as well as other believers, and the many we know who have gone before. We will, after all, be in direct communication with God himself in a most ineffable way.

The answer, I believe, is that we were created for community, not designed as solitary creatures who may only commune with God alone.

If you know the father of a family, why do you bother to speak to any of the other members?

It is because, in the unity of the Church, both on earth and in heaven, we are a community. We are here to help each other. We don’t cease that help merely by going to heaven.

Beautiful. As well put from a common sense point of view as I have ever seen it. This view gives us all the most hope, which is what it’s all about.