Questions from an Evangelical

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Franz:
Those who live their lives according to Christ, are worthy of honor, your requests, as I’m sure you’ve take from above, are not futile, but unless you are perfectly righteous, then according to scripture, your prayers are NOT as effective as the saints in heaven, but not futile either as if you don’t request you won’t recieve. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but no one in heaven has SIN, whether or not you believed Mary had sin on earth, so I don’t quite see what you mean but hopefully you see what I mean.

Here is what the Catechism says about why we honor saints:

The Catechism of The Catholic Church.

Used with permission

946. After confessing ‘the holy catholic Church,’ the Apostle’s Creed adds ‘the communion of saints.’ In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: ‘What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?’ The communion of saints is the Church.

947. 'Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others…We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ since he is the head…Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments. As this Church is governed by one and the same spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.

948. The term communion of the saints, therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta) and among holy persons (sancti).

956. The intercession of the Saints. Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in Heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…they do not cease to intercede to the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…so by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.

Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you more effectively than during my life. (Saint Dominic, dying, to his brothers.)

I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth. (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

957. Communion with the saints. It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself.

We worship Christ as God’s Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord’s disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their King and Master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples! (Martyrium Polycarpi, 17:Apostolic Fathers II/3, 396)

2683. The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those who the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise Him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were put in charge of many things. Their intercession is the most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

Excerpts taken from Cathechism of the Catholic ChurchCopyright © Concacan Inc. - LIBRERIA EDITRICE VATICANA, 1994, for the English translation in Canada. All rights reserved.

For the CCCB’s website. For the Publications Services site.
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I can see how the Catechism would support your beleiefs, but unfortunately, I and most other evangelicals don’t believe that to be an authoritative book. But very thorough nonetheless. Thank you !!!
 
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Jennifer123:
I do see what you mean. To ask another question, don’t you honor YOUR mother? You don’t necessarily think your mother shouldn’t be honored because she has sinned in her life, do you?

Isn’t there anyone in your life that has lead a more exemplary life in Christ than yourself? Wouldn’t you treat them with the respect due someone who has devoted more of their life to Christ than even yourself? Even if they’ve sinned? (Haven’t we all?? 😉 )

Kinda rhetorical I guess since I’m biased! 👍
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Actually, I DO honor my mother; I honor her wishes and respect her as an individual. I do the same for Mary. They, in my eyes, have both sinned, yet their status in this world warrant honor and respect. I have not hidden that in any way. The difference comes in that when my mother has died, like Mary, they bask in God’s glory in peace in Heaven. Once she is out of her earthly body, I will see her again in Heaven for eternity.
As for someone leading a more Christ-like life than me…absolutely, but I know that they are just as susceptible to fall as I am. I also know that you can’t read a book by it’s cover, and I will never truly know the extent to which their heart is pure and commited. And finally, I also know that God deems all sin as equal and condemning to the soul. Now, unless they are sinless (against the Bible), there is no reason to treat them better than any other of God’s children. Perhaps some are further along in their faiths, but God has his timing. Pehaps the person just became a Christian, but their heart is just as invested and passionate as a person who grew up in the faith.

Hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughts.
God bless
 
Thank you for your thoughts on this subject, there is one little thing I would like to comment on and that is the Catechism of The Catholic Church. I was kinda suspicious of this when I was studying Catholicism. It was portrayed to me as an addition to the faith which is contrary to Christian belief, and was a problem for me in coming back to the Church.
This was because it was explained wrong then attacked for the bad explanation. The Catechism of The Catholic Church is not like the Bible it is not an addition. It is merely an explanation of the faith and how to better understand it. It is not a new revelation or anything like that, it is just a reference to understand why we believe what we believe. It gives an overview, an explanation.
If I am discussion with a Jehovah’s witness and need to give an explanation of the Trinity, I could look it up in the Catechism and give them a pretty straightforward explanation without trying to wing it, and getting confused.
I understand you wouldn’t think it authorative as you have a different faith tradition as we do, but I just wanted to make sure you don’t have the same problem I had, and arguements I had. It was common to say that Catholics were “adding” to the Bible instead of explaining the faith.

Thanks for your charitable posting, we had a little problem there with another poster but it looks like the mods took care of him.

God Bless
Scylla

P.S. I invite you to call Mary “blessed” as we do as it is more scriptural to do so.
 
Skattas

Thanks first of all for this thread. I just hope that you are not overwhelmed by all these responses. I know they are many and probably very hard for you to digest all of them.

I know the question has been posed as to why bother asking friends to pray for us and just go to God Himself. I don’t know if you have answered this or not but I would like to know
  1. Do you believe in asking your friends to pray for you and have ever done so? What do people say when somebody sneezes?
  2. You stated on one of your posts that you and Protestants do honor Mary. May I ask as to how you honor Mary? When somebody is being honored are we not talking to that person or directing our attention to that person?
would I be considered a Catholic if I teach my children to only pray to God, honor the saints, but not in prayer and such?
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It is great to think of the possibility of you becoming Catholic. I know that the subject of Mary has been very hard on people coming in to the Catholic Church. That was the last obstacle that the wife of my nephew and the husband of my wife’s niece had to overcome. Once they really understood they gladly accepted the Catholic Faith.

As far as being considered a Catholic and teaching children to pray to God only. Several things. The children will surely ask if they attend CCD classes and then have to learn the Hail Mary, and hear the Rosary being prayed, what will be your response when they ask why others pray to Mary and you don’t?

Also since do not believe in Mary being Immaculate, there are several levels of teachings on the Catholic Church and the first Level MUST be believed by all Catholics.
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**Level 1 Teaching** is that which has been Divine Revealed in the Word of God, written or handed down, and that which has been solemnly judged as divinely revealed truths. They are divinely revealed dogmas.
Some examples of Level 1 teaching required for belief by all the Faithful include: the divinity of Christ, the articles of faith of the Creed, the various Christological dogmas, the various Marian dogmas,… ( and please don’t let these scare your) belief in the Immaculate Conception and in the Assumption of Mary. These are just a few. I didn’t bother pasting the others.

Thanks and I’m sure ALL Catholics here in the forum are praying for you.:blessyou:
 
Just one more thing, I came back to the Church first before I even prayed one Hail Mary, as I was so scared to do it. I know how difficult it is to understand the Communion of Saints mindset sometimes.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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skattas:
Actually, I DO honor my mother; I honor her wishes and respect her as an individual. I do the same for Mary. They, in my eyes, have both sinned, yet their status in this world warrant honor and respect. I have not hidden that in any way. The difference comes in that when my mother has died, like Mary, they bask in God’s glory in peace in Heaven. Once she is out of her earthly body, I will see her again in Heaven for eternity.
As for someone leading a more Christ-like life than me…absolutely, but I know that they are just as susceptible to fall as I am. I also know that you can’t read a book by it’s cover, and I will never truly know the extent to which their heart is pure and commited. And finally, I also know that God deems all sin as equal and condemning to the soul. Now, unless they are sinless (against the Bible), there is no reason to treat them better than any other of God’s children. Perhaps some are further along in their faiths, but God has his timing. Pehaps the person just became a Christian, but their heart is just as invested and passionate as a person who grew up in the faith.

Hope you see what I mean. Thanks for the thoughts.
God bless
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The scriptural proof of Mary remaining sinless, and the consistant teaching of the Early Church fathers, is quite extensive. I’m sure people will be happy to discuss this with you on a thread dedicated to this. In fact, I would suggest that if you do want to discuss topics, a seperate thread would be ideal.

Tell me, would you willingly sin against God if you had an Angel appear to you and tell you that you would be impregnated by the Holy Spirit with Jesus?

Question for you Skattas, do you know, how the Church goes about declaring someone a saint?

How do you honour our Blessed mother? Do you see Mary as your mother too?

God Bless you, you seem like a wonderful person, take your time in absorbing the information here, as it is here in abundance.
 
quote: skattas
Ignorant and uncaring??..I re-read my message a few times, and I didn’t see those two words or anything like them anywhere. I never even implied this, so hopefully we can deal with what is actually there. What I wrote was that in heaven, God allows us to be at rest from all the troubles of the world that we were finally taken from. He allows us to truly rest in His peace. He rewards us for our commitment, dedication, and obedience to Him in a world that tests all the things just mentioned. That was the intention behind what I wrote. Hope it is clearer for you next time.
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Very nicely put, IMHO.

Best,
reen12
 
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skattas:
I can see how the Catechism would support your beleiefs, but unfortunately, I and most other evangelicals don’t believe that to be an authoritative book. But very thorough nonetheless. Thank you !!!
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Hi, no need to worry about the Catechism, it is only an aid given by the Catholic Church to provide further explanation on the Catholic faith for Catholics and Non-Catholics alike.

When interested to see what the Church actually teaches about any subject, it is an excellent resource.
 
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skattas:
And finally, I also know that God deems all sin as equal and condemning to the soul.
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All sin is equal before God? How do you know this? This is a very ‘un’ evangelical position you have taken, so this statement surprises me. Also, overly simplistic when measure against scripture.
 
Well everyone, I just want to say thank you for all of the hard work you have put into your responses…what a blessing!! I have so much to think over, and I look forward to doing so. I just wanted to let you know that I made a new thread called “Inffalability?” . Now, to some, it may seem direct, but it’s been a question that has plagued my heart for a while. I hope you all know my good intentions here, and that maybe you can help me in that area too. Thank you again. I count you all as brothers and sisters in Christ.

God Bless
 
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