Questions from evangelical wife

[dseder]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

 

[YADA]

Your wife is setting up straw-man arguments … IMHO

What is a ritual? Why did you and your wife get “married”? … Many people now days do not see the need for that “Ritual” …

You and your wife should [together] read [and study] the scriptures and the writings of the early Christians … for example: much of Christianity does not offer Communion to unbaptized persons? Why? You will not find that explicit practice in the Scriptures but you will find that explicit in the Didache …

How do you determine who is a “Christian” and who is not? How do you become a “member” of any thing? You express a desire to join and the organization accepts you … almosy universally - that acceptance is rituallized in some way - whethe ris is ellaborate or simple. Like the differeence between a Church wedding and the Justice of the Peace ceremony …

Do you celerate your wedding annivrsary? Birthday? the 4th of July? Why or why not? Do you treasure family heirlooms? Why would you ‘ritualize’ your life but not you faith?

Communion [even by the term - in and of itself] signifies a unity of faith, belief and practice … if you do not believe what the faith community does - why would you want to participate in that “Communion”? And if you participated in that Communion without being in communion are you a liar, a fool or what? What are you expressing?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Regarding the Eucharist or Holy Communion - the Catholic Church allows not only Catholics, but also Eastern Orthodox (EO), Oriental Orthodox (OO) people, and members of the Polish National Catholic Church to partake in the Eucharist, BECAUSE those Churches, albeit not part of the Catholic Church and not in full communion with us, DO BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE (that is, the real presence of Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist). When I say they are not in full communion with us, I mean they reject important Catholic teachings, e.g. the EO reject the Pope as head of the Church, and our Catholic priests do not con-celebrate the Holy Mass (Holy Eucharist) with the priests of the mentioned heretic/schismatic Churches (heretic=in doctrinal error, schismatic=someone who separated himself from the one true Catholic Church of Christ). Nevertheless, if a member of those Churches does attend Mass in a Catholic Church, (s)he is allowed to present him/herself to Holy Communion (Eucharist), provided that (s)he complied with the other requirements of his/her own Church (i.e. confessed sins, fasted as prescribed by his/her own Church). Protestants and non-baptized people are not allowed to partake in the Eucharist because they do not believe that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist (that he is truly present, his Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity are present under the visible appearances of bread and vine). This exclusion of Protestants and non-Christians is meant to protect them, as the apostle Paul told us that no one should eat the Bread and drink the Vine without discerning the Body of Christ, lest they should eat and drink condemnation on themselves. Translated to contemporary speak, the Eucharist is a very serious thing, and nobody should partake of it unless being aware and believing that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Also, when a Catholic attends the Holy Mass or shall we say Divine Liturgy at an EO or OO church, they are not forbidden by our Catholic Church to present themselves for the Eucharist at those Churches, again because those Churches (EO and OO) have a valid priesthood, i.e. valid priests who can validly consecrate the bread and vine into the Eucharist, and those Churches also believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. In other words, EO and OO have a valid Eucharist, Jesus Christ is truly present in their Eucharist, even though the Churches themselves are in serious doctrinal errors in other matters, such as the role of Peter and his successors the Popes as leaders of Jesus Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church on the Earth. I suspect your wife also needs to be explained the Apostolic nature of the Church - i.e. all Bishops and Priests are successors of the original 12 Apostles, they are part of an unbroken Apostolic Succession going back to the original 12 Apostles, and only they are valid Bishops and Priests with the ability to consecrate the bread and vine into the Eucharist. In other words, I cannot start calling myself a Priest or Bishop, unless a valid Bishop, who is part of the Apostolic Succession, consecrates me and makes me into a Priest or Bishop, by laying his hands on me, and calling down the Holy Spirit on me. In other words, the Sacrament of Holy Orders (the sacrament of consecrating someone into a Priest or Religios) can only be administered by a Bishop who himself was validly consecrated and is part of the Apostolic Succession. And the Sacrament of the Eucharist, in turn, can only be administered by a valid Bishop or Priest. I who am a layperson, cannot consecrate the bread and vine into the Eucharist, because I am not a valid Bishop or Priest. The ordaining of Bishops and Priests, by the laying on of the hands, is another unbroken Tradition of the Catholic Church, and the Apostle Paul mentions it in his Letters, in the New Testament.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Just another detail to the big picture - I learned that Anglicans, Episcopalians do not have valid priesthood, but they do believe in the Real Presence. Thus, when their “priests” “consecrate the Eucharist”, they are in error because not having a valid priesthood, they also do not possess and cannot consecrate a valid Eucharist. And as far as I know, Anglicans and Episcopalians are asked not to present themselves for the Eucharist, when they attend Holy Mass at a Catholic Church.

 

[kage_ar]

Watch together “The Journey Home” on EWTN (www.ewtn.com you can watch on line)

Read conversion stories. Steve Ray’s website has a ton of them.

The DVD and study guide “Common Ground” from www.catholicprotestant.com is good.

The DVD advertised at the top of this page - “Why Be Catholic” would be great I’m sure!

 

[4elise]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

From my understand rituals - I am guessing that you are talking about sacraments - are just as we were taught in catechism - outward signs - (instituted by Christ to give grace) ways that a community can worship together. We have the freedom to enter into the community and receive this grace. The freedom we receive from Christ’s death and resurrection does not give us freedom to do whatever we want - but it is a freedom to chose forgiveness and redemption.

Communion (being in union with others) - for Catholics communion is not symbolic as it is in other faith communities - we BELIEVE that the bread and wine are transformed (transubstantiation) into the real and present BODY and BLOOD of Jesus - not a symbol, but real. If one who does not believe this takes this communion - not being in union with this belief it is disrespectful, IMHO — keep trying to understand — and needing to explain is a good way to have to understand better!

Easter Blessings

 

[CB_Catholic]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

I’ve been to plenty of evangelical and pentecostal church services and can tell you that there is plenty of ritual going on, they just don’t want to call it that. The altar call they usually give is definitely a ritual–usually the preacher asks if someone wants to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior (or something along similar lines), then they go forward to the front and say the Sinner’s Prayer, (usually accompanied by some moving music) then they are considered 'born again" or 'saved", or whatever. But they have to do this publicly and each church has it’s own way of doing this, and it usually follows a prescribed pattern, in my experience.

A ritual is a way of doing things. None of their church services I’ve been to have been chaotic messes with everyone doing their own thing. There is an order of service, and if for some reason that order is disrupted, people will complain that things weren’t done right. (In other words, their ritual was not followed).

I’ve witnessed their baptisms, funerals, and weddings. All done in a certain way and order. Those are rituals, whether they want to call them that or not. So I don’t get it when people claim they don’t have rituals. They do.

Our Catholic rituals have meaning to us. It’s how we express our faith, and they serve to unite us. We are not split into thousands of denominations, everyone believing his own thing. The way we worship reflects our belief. We pray what we believe. Jesus did not die to free us from rituals–He died to free us from sin and the slavery to sin. He died so we may have eternal life with Him. That is pretty basic. Your wife is confusing the fact that we are no longer bound by the Law of Moses with “freedom from ritual.”

The reason we have closed Communion is very simple. We are not in full communion with non-Catholic Christians. When you take Communion in the Catholic Church and say “Amen” when the minister says “The Body of Christ”, you are saying “I believe” to all the Catholic Church professes, not only to the belief that it is the actual Body and Blood of our Lord that we are partaking of. For a non-Catholic to say “Amen” would be a lie for them. They don’t believe that is the actual body and Blood of our Lord in the same way we do, and they don’t profess to believe the Catholic faith, and they shouldn’t be saying “Amen” to something they don’t believe. But the same goes for those who call themselves Catholic but don’t believe–if they don’t believe, they should not be taking Communion.

 

[kage_ar]

One friend of mine, during her conversion - had an AH HA moment when she watched a documentary about the Guard of the Tomb of the Unknown, she then understood rituals are good things, full of meaning.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.

It’s not totally clear to me whether your wife refers to what we call the seven Sacraments of the Church (Baptism, Confirmation, Extreme Unction, Reconciliation = Sacrament of Penance, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Marriage), or whether she refers to the form of our Holy Mass, also called Divine Liturgy in the Eastern tradition. At any rate, you can assure her that all of these go back directly to what the 12 Apostles and the earliest Christians believed, and to the way they worshipped God. For example, it can be directly shown from the Letters of St. Paul, in the New Testament, how the early Christians regarded the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, and how they had the Holy Orders (Bishops, Priests, Deacons). Then, if you study the writings of the Early Church Fathers (Saints of the first 4 centuries after Christ), you will see how everything we believe and practice today, was believed and practiced from the earliest days of Christianity, and you will come to appreciate how our faith today is the same as the faith of the Apostles and earliest disciples, who knew Jesus in person and were taught by Jesus himself. Regarding the Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass, the earliest liturgy is the Liturgy of Saint James, composed by the Apostle Saint James, one of the original 12 Apostles, the same James who was one of the three (Peter, James, and John) to witness the Transfiguration of Jesus on the Mount of Tabor, and this apostle James was later on the Bishop of Jerusalem, after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his ascension into heaven. Let it sink in: the earliest Divine Liturgy was composed by one of the 12 Apostles, and this is how the earliest Christians worshipped. The Liturgy of St. James is still used today by the Eastern Catholic Churches, together with the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, composed in the 4th century by the Bishop of Constantinople, St. John Chrysostom. The Roman Catholic Church today uses mainly 2 liturgies, namely the Tridentine Liturgy, composed in the 16th century, and the Novus Ordo Mass, which is a liturgy composed at the time of the 2nd Vatican Council, in the 1960s. Altogether, the more than 20 Catholic Churches (Roman Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Greek Catholic, etc) use some 20 different liturgies in their worship. However, anyone rejecting the liturgical form of worship today would do well to reflect on this question: why did the original 12 Apostles, and their descendants the Bishops throughout these 2000 years, felt the necessity to compose liturgies, and worship God in a liturgical form? I have attended during my life the Novus Ordo Mass, the Tridentine Liturgy, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle. All of these liturgies are composed in such a way that the high point of them is the Eucharist, i.e. the consecration of the bread and vine which becomes Jesus Christ’s Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, and the partaking of the faithful in the Eucharist. These are the high points of the Catholic Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy, and have been the high point throughout 2000 years of Christianity, starting with the original 12 Apostles, and starting with the Divine Liturgy of St. James the Apostle.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

…all rituals and no freedom.

…

How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

OK, this is not going to be a theological answer, but here goes, after reading YADA’s post: How could your wife refuse to have sex with you, until you marry her? This is a question that had perplexed MANY guys throughout history! And to make matters worse, women usually want lots of rituals, beyond the bare necessities of showing up in front of a peace judge, and getting over with it as quickly as possible. The diamond ring, bride’s dress, bouquet of flowers, bridesmaids, guests’ lists, where to have the ceremony, who will professionally photograph/videotape, where’s the wedding reception, what will be on the menu, and on and on it goes, details and rituals, until it drives the poor guy nuts, when all he wanted is just to get married quickly and have sex with his girlfriend (now wife)!

Maybe your wife, being a woman, will appreciate this point.

 

[joandarc2008]

Your wife is mistaken. Jesus did not die for our freedom. He died for our freedom from sin.

 

[Cat]

My husband and I are converts from Evangelical Protestantism. I grew up in the Conference Baptist church, and he was Assemblies of God. We spent ten years in the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and in several other churches for shorter periods of time. The last Evangelical Protestant church that we belonged to before converting to Catholicism was an Evangelical Free Church in America (EFCA) church.

For those who are not familiar with this kind of Christianity, Evangelicals are *extremely, rabidly * anti-ritual. I was taught that a ritual is a “work of man” and therefore, an insult to the Lord’s death on the cross.

So it is completely understandable that your wife is questioning the Catholic Church. This is a huge issue for evangelicals because it touches on the issue of justification by faith or works or a combination of both. And of course, no Christian wants to insult the Lord Jesus.

Evangelicals will usually agree that we are saved by faith, and that works happen as a result of that faith. These works are actually Christ working through us, they are NOT OUR works. We are capable of nothing good. It is only through Christ that we can do any good works at all.

Evangelicals are totally opposed to the “works of man,” and believe that such works will be burned as chaff as described in I Corinthians 3.

Here are a few thoughts that helped me and my husband when we were contemplating the conversion to Catholicism.

I agree with the poster who said that ALL churches use a “liturgy.” In evangelical churches, the “non-liturgy” IS the liturgy. There are evangelical pastors who proudly announce that they have never used the same “order of service” twice in many years during the worship services. Well, that in itself is the “liturgy.”

Evangelicals also practice many smaller rituals and liturgies. Ask her how she prays–does she always begin her prayers with the same salutation? E.g., "Dear Jesus, or “Dear Heavenly Father.”? That’s a ritual. How about body position? And when it comes to traditions–does she practice any Christian traditions–Christmas tree? Creche scene? Saying “Hallelujah” or "Praise the Lord (PTL)? These are rituals.

Remind your wife of something else that evangelicals are very fond of quoting–“God is a God of order.” There are quite a few Bible passages to support this, but the main one that I’ve seen used is I Corinthians 14: 40–“But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner.” This verse follows the discussion in Chapter 14 of “instruction for the Church”, in which St. Paul lays out an “order” for worship when Christians get together. It is obvious in the BIble that a Christian worship service was never done with complete freedom and no order of service. If it was, the apostles reprimanded those churches.

So “ritual” or “an ordered way of doing things” is very Biblical. Suggest to your wife that she do a Bible study on rituals and order. She will discover that the New Testament is full of instructions on how to “do Church.” Both epistles to the Corinthians are especially good, as are the pastoral letters to Timothy and Titus. Also, of course, the book of Acts. For that matter, the Gospels make it clear that Jesus did not scorn the rituals of his family and Jewish heritage; He fully participated in these rituals, and even established a new ritual–Holy Communion, as well as the “ritual” of baptism. (Note to Catholics: evangelicals do not believe in sacraments. They accept two “ordinances” of the church–communion and believer’s baptism).

Finally, pick up a copy of the book, Evangelical is Not Enough by Thomas Howard. Howard is the brother of Elisabeth Elliot, a name that is above reproach in Evangelical circles. His book is wonderful, the best I’ve seen for reaching out to Evangelical Protestants.

 

[crazzeto]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

I would start with this, what does freedom really mean? It would seem your wife equates (as do many) freedom with license. This is not genuine freedom.

 

[ContegoFides]

There’s some good advice above. I’ll add my 50 cents from a more “bookish” perspective.

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.

At it essence, the mass is about obeying JESUS’ command. The ritual of the mass was instituded by Christ at the first Eucharist: "Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” John 22:19. (emphasis supplied only to point out the command). If we are “doing this in memory of me,” then we require some kind of ritual in order to obey Christ’s command. Whether the ritual is always the same or varies, some ritual is needed in which we do “this” in memory of him.

The question then becomes, “what is in the ritual?” The answer comes from the Church, to which Jesus gave the power to made decisions in this matter. Matthew 13: 16-19 (Keys to the Kingdom, and the power to bind and loose). Thus, it is the Church that decides the form of the ritual, and we are required to obey the Church’s decision in these matters because we are required to obey Christ who gave that authority to the Church.

The issues of freedom are, IMHO, a red herring. “Freedom” is the battle cry of Satan, who from the start said “I will not serve” (i.e., I want “freedom” from God’s commands). You can see the result. Authentic freedom is freedom from sin, not avoidance of obediance to lawful authority.

1. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

Again, the focus is on freedom, but that is the wrong focus.

When you take communion in the Catholic Church there are two (well, more than two, but for our purposes here I’ll say two) things happening. 1) You are receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus - regardless of whether you believe it or not. 2) You are stating by the very act of receiving communion that you believe everything the Catholic Church teaches as being required or “infallible.” Not part of what she teaches, all of it. (Note, some beliefs are “optional;” you could receive communion as a Catholic and hold a legitimate minority opinion on issues like the Shroud of Turin and many others).

So, for #2, If you are not Catholic, or don’t believe everything she requires, then you would be participating in deceit, even if you didn’t know it. The Church knows this, and wouldn’t want to condone deceit.

Worse, for #1, receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in an unworthy manner is dangerous. “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord.” 1 Cor 11:27. Thus, the person receiving communion in an unworthy manner may be subject to grave danger of destruction, both temporal and eternal.

The Church is being merciful when she denies communion to non-Catholics.

Part of what your wife is struggling with here is that the Catholic Church is not just a club where, if you don’t like the rules, you join some other club. The Catholic Church is about the reality of God; about the Truth in the absolute sense.

Please send me a private message or post here if you feel like biblical apologetics will further help you.

God Bless,

 

[manualman]

I lived with evangelicals for 4 years in college, which gave me some insights into their strengths and problems. You gotta admire what these folks can do with just Sacred Scripture, baptism and marriage. Two arms and a leg tied behind their backs and they still manage to sometimes do great things in faith.

One of the major problems I see that your wife seems to suffer from is that they see sort of a separation between the physical and spiritual worlds. They often perceive this world as tainted by Satan and not to be trusted. Only that which exists in the spiritual realm is free of that taint. This is the root of why protestants mostly threw out sacraments and liturgy and sacramentals, statues, holy cards, rosaries, etc. The idea that something physical and tangible can be entirely from God is unacceptable. They’ve failed to recognize that humans are NOT spirits trapped in earthen vessels. We are a UNION of body and soul. Our eternal destiny is to be manifest in physical form. Once you recognize this reality, it is no longer a surprise that God reaches out to us both spiritually and physically. Nobody of any real significance challenged the physical realness of the Eucharist before the protestant revolution. It was THEN that the physical came to be seen as unredeemably tainted. My college friends used the phrase “its all gonna burn” to remind themselves not to get too attached to physical things. To a point, it’s good not to be attached to physical things as possessions, but to utterly repudiate the value of anything physical is out of bounds. And, by the way, utterly unscriptural. Scripture is chock full of God working through physical things to reach out to humanity. From buring bushes, to the Ark of the Covenant to Jesus himself God has always touched us both spiritually and physically. He never stopped.

By the way, it is an American heresy to define “freedom” as the ability to do whatever you feel like doing. (That definition is what is called ‘license.’) The real definition is “the ability to do what is GOOD.” There is no greater freedom than being the joyful servant of the Almighty and receiving Grace via the body and blood of our Lord.

 

[choy]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

being evangelical, she should go with whats in the bible, right?

then ask her, Christ instituted the Eucharist and its in the Bible. its in the Bible that Christ said, “do this in memory of me.” so why can’t we do that “ritual” when Christ himself said so to do it, and its written in the Bible?

also, in the Bible, Paul talks of unworthiness of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. so not everyone is worthy to receive it

 

[Sparki777]

Hi! I converted in 2003, also coming from pentecostal but we stopped in an evangelical anglican church for a few years along the way.

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.

If you sit down and thing about it, there is ritual in the pentecostal churches, too. I remember in our church, there would be an opening song, a greeting, a few announcements, then about 20-30 minutes of worship and then 30-45 minutes of preaching, an altar call, and a closing song. Every week. The only things that ever changed were on special occasions – a dramatic performance to commemorate Easter, say, or a tribute to moms on mothers day or what not. This is basically a form of liturgy. Granted, the pentecostal church made up their own liturgy (or followed one made up by whatever church planted this one), but it’s still a ritual. My husband played with our worship teams, and they always rehearsed, mapping out what was going to happen when. So there isn’t as much “freedom” as the people sitting in the pews (or chairs) might think.

In fact, God is the God of order, not chaos (Job 25:2 “Dominion and awe belong to God; he establishes order in the heights of heaven.”). If you look in the Old Testament (Exodus & Leviticus in particular), you see that God provided tons of instruction in regards to the style and order of proper worship. And it’s not like God changes. (Malachi 3:6 “I the LORD do not change.”) Nor did Jesus eschew ritual – rather, He observed them. I mean, the night before He died, He was celebrating the Passover with a traditional Seder meal! So this idea that Jesus “freed us from ritual” is actually not Biblical. He fulfill ritual; He did not destroy it.

On a personal level, the ritual is incredibly freeing. When you don’t know what’s going to be thrown at you in a service (a la pentecostalism), you have to test everything according to Scripture (1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Test everything. Hold on to the good.”. In the sacred liturgy, you know it’s already been tested. 95% of it is word for word out of the Bible. Your mind and heart and soul are thus free to fully engage in WORSHIP, not testing. It’s really quite remarkable.

1. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

Actually, the Bible very clearly states that if a person eats and drinks without recognizing Christ in Communion, they are eating and drinking judgment upon themselves. (1 Corinthians 11:29 “For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.”) So, pentecostals and other who consider communion to be a mere symbol and who do NOT recognize the Body and Blood of Christ in the form of the Eucharist are not eligible to receive. Catholics must know and understand that the Eucharist IS the most precious Body and Blood of our Savior, not only a symbol.

One must also remember three things.

First, it was the protestants who broke communion with the Catholic Church and rejected the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist. The Church didn’t kick them out and would be happy to welcome all protestants back into the fold. Just like you – you can become Catholic and receive the Eucharist every day – even twice a day - for the rest of your life.

Second, this is akin to the vegetarian who marries into the meat-eating family. At Thanksgiving, when they all gather around the turkey dinner, they are happy to have the vegetarian in-law among them, and that person is welcome to partake in everything she believes in eating. But everybody expects her to eschew the turkey and gravy because she’s a vegetarian, and she doesn’t believe in eating that. So it is with pentecostals – they do NOT believe in eating the actual Flesh or drinking the actual Blood of Christ. They believe it’s not possible, and some of them would even recoil in disgust. So Catholics figure that these Christian brothers and sisters would naturally want to refrain from receiving the Eucharist. I mean, if the vegetarian at Thanksgiving dinner speared a forkful of turkey and shoved it into her mouth and say, “THERE! Try and stop me from eating this! I know it’s not meat!!!” – everybody would think she was absolutely insane.

Third, even Catholics must, at times, refrain from receiving the Eucharist because they are not properly prepared to receive – perhaps they’ve got to go to Confession first, or maybe they forgot to observe the fast before Mass and can’t eat of Jesus with food in their stomachs. So it’s not like the Church is picking on non-Catholic Christians – the same rules apply to ALL Christians.

Blessings to you and your wife. Every question is a good question!

 

[dseder]

Many thanks for all the great answers!

Ironically my wife and I were sitting at the dining room table on Sunday. Somehow the subject of glasses came up and I asked her why she didn’t wear hers. She said she can see what’s important just fine. I told her that if I took mine off (I’m practically blind without them) that I could see a 747 about to crash into me, but I like to see everything else as well … the details. She said she likes the freedom of not having to wear the glasses. I said … “Aha! you like the freedom, I like the details!” We both busted out laughing!

 

[jmcrae]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.

When Moses led the Israelites to freedom, the first thing God did was give him the Ten Commandments. It may seem like a contradiction in terms, but lawlessness is not the same thing as freedom - in order to have freedom, we need to have rules, and in order to have freedom in worship, we need to have some rules that govern how we worship.

1. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

It is not that the Church is “refusing,” as if the Church had some kind of authority over her, but rather, that the Church in fact has no authority over her, to give her Holy Communion, or to hear her Confession, or to do anything for her.

But we can’t put ourselves under authority, and then take ourselves out from under that authority, to get what we want, but then avoid the things we don’t want. Either you are under the Church’s authority (to receive Holy Communion, and then to do everything else that Catholics do), or you aren’t.

If she wants the Church to have the authority to give her Holy Communion, then she also has to accept that the Church is going to also have authority over her to tell her which days she should be fasting, guide her to know when she should go to Confession, and where she can go to Church, and what words she should say during the Mass, etc. It’s kind of an “all or nothing” thing.

 

[tafan]

So I’m on my way of converting to the Catholic Church (coming from pentecostal protestant). My wife (has no call to Catholic Church) is having issues with this … namely in two areas:

1. doesn’t understand why the rituals are necessary for worship - there’s suppose to be a “freedom in Christ” - he died for your freedom - which includes freedom from the need of rituals, etc. Catholic Church is all rituals and no freedom.
2. along with this freedom, one should be able to take communion without having to be a member of a certain church. How could a church refuse to let you take communion until your a member.

how do I answer these!!! thanks!

Well, first of all, to say that “he died for our freedom” (while maybe not technically wrong, with the proper understanding of the word freedom), seems to be starting an line a reasoning from the wrong point. He died for our salvation, for atonement of our sins.

As to the concept of “freedom from rituals”, Christ left some fairly specific instructions along these lines. “Go forth and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Sprirt”, “Do this in memory of me”. So Christ obviously would not have ruled out rituals and one can see in Acts and the Epistles that the forms and rituals and hierachy of the church start taking shape very early on.

As to the freedom to take communion of a church without being a member argument, this simply shows that your wife does not understand the word freedom. Freedom does not mean we can do what ever we want, freedom means we are free to choose what is right. How it can be right to participate in another religion’s rituals in a manner which they don’t want is beyond me. She doesn’t have to agree with the other religions reasoning for the prohibition, but she should be considerate enough to accept it.

Finally, I would have her consider this scenario. I was once discussing this issue with a good friend of mine who is an evangelical. He pointed out to me that if he went to a Catholic mass and was invited to take communion, he would be greatly offended. In his opinion, our worshipping of the host is idolatry. If we were to invite him to particiapte in it, we would be inviting him to sin. So maybe you should ask her why she wants to participate in something she sees as wrong.