Questions on Assumption of Mary

[Tantum_ergo]

From another thread by Traveler1534, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=139924 so as not to go off topic, he has these questions.

There is a very encompassing notion when you are a Catholic to only accept that which comes from the magisterium if it is not written in scripture and sometimes accept what the magisterium says even in contradiction to scripture. This is much more focused to one that has been out of the Catholic realm for quite some time. Why do you believe that mary was taken into heaven body and soul? First, I do not believe this at all, but you must in order to be Catholic. What is the belief built upon?? Certainly not scripture, you won’t find a hint of this. It was a pope who declared this as dogma. This disproves your belief of the truth as never changing. If you believed this to be true before the pope of this time declared it as dogma you would have been involved in heresey. If you didn’t believe it after the pope declared it dogma, again you would be in heresey. How can the truth change all in one person?? Scripture does not speak to that ever!

 

[Subrosa]

ARGGHH!!! That wiley Magesterium issue pops up once again!

Things such as the Immaculate Conception and The Assumption are brought to us by courtesy of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells us in John 14:15-31 about “the Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everyting and remind you of all that I told you.” (vs. 26)

The pope did not just pull it out of his hat. He enquired with theologians, asked nearly every bishop in the church, searched history and came to a conclusion.

Everyone believed it and has believed it for a very long time - ergo it is a product of the holy spirit in His ministry as the Advocate that has taught us according to the promise Christ made.

In essence - the Magesterium at work.

Sub

 

[LilyM]

Everyone believed it and has believed it for a very long time

Since about the 4th century. And our Orthodox brothers accept it as well and always have - and they’ve been separated from us for 1,000 years. So no, it wasn’t pulled out of anyone’s hat by any means.

Think of it this way - as important as scripture is it is far from exhaustive. John in his Gospel says in so many words that not nearly everything Jesus said or did was recorded. How much less then has been recorded in the case of Mary. In spite of this the Church has been promised freedom from error and that it will always teach ‘all truth’.

How can this be? Guidance from the Holy Spirit as well as tradition - which Paul exhorts Timothy to teach ‘whether oral or by letter’. In other words there are important and necessary teachings that HAVEN’T been recorded in writing. The Assumption is one example of this - and like all Marian doctrine it speaks to the significance and importance of Christ, and by extension Mary as his mother, rather than of Mary herself.

 

[Eileen_T]

The doctrine of her bodily assumption after her death is not contained in Scripture, but is guaranteed by tradition and by the teaching of the Catholic Church. That Scripture omits to record the fact is no argument against it. Omission is not denial. Meantime early traditions positively record the fact, and negatively we note that, whilst the mortal remains of a St. Peter and of a St. Paul are jealously possessed and honored in Rome, no city or Christian center has ever claimed to possess the mortal remains of Our Lady. Certainly relics of Our Lady would be regarded as having greater value than those of any Saint or Apostle, so nearly was she related to Christ. And it was most fitting that the body of Mary, who had been preserved even from the taint of original sin, should not have been allowed to corrupt After all, it was just as easy for God to take her glorified body to Heaven at once as it will be to take the glorified bodies of all the saved at the last day.

From THE REV. DR. RUMBLE, M.S.C. in Radio Replies Vol.1

 

[Subrosa]

Since about the 4th century. And our Orthodox brothers accept it as well and always have - and they’ve been separated from us for 1,000 years. So no, it wasn’t pulled out of anyone’s hat by any means.

Think of it this way - as important as scripture is it is far from exhaustive. John in his Gospel says in so many words that not nearly everything Jesus said or did was recorded. How much less then for Mary.

In spite of this the Church has been promised freedom from error and that it will always teach ‘all truth’. How can this be? Guidance from the Holy Spirit as well as tradition - which Paul exhorts Timothy to teach ‘whether oral or by letter’. In other words there are important and necessary teachings that HAVEN’T been recorded in writing.

Along with the Orthodox, the Coptic, Antiochan, Jerusalem and Armenian churches believe it.

There again , the holy Spirit at work.

Sub

 

[Rolltide]

There is a very encompassing notion when you are a Catholic to only accept that which comes from the magisterium if it is not written in scripture and sometimes accept what the magisterium says even in contradiction to scripture. This is much more focused to one that has been out of the Catholic realm for quite some time. Why do you believe that mary was taken into heaven body and soul? First, I do not believe this at all, but you must in order to be Catholic. What is the belief built upon?? Certainly not scripture, you won’t find a hint of this. It was a pope who declared this as dogma. This disproves your belief of the truth as never changing. If you believed this to be true before the pope of this time declared it as dogma you would have been involved in heresey. If you didn’t believe it after the pope declared it dogma, again you would be in heresey. How can the truth change all in one person?? Scripture does not speak to that ever!

First, you state that a pope declared the Assumption as dogma. True enough. But… the pope generally only declares something as dogma when it has been long held as true and is under attack from outside sources. Let’s see what the early church had to say about the Assumption of Mary:

The Early Church Fathers on The Assumption

The doctrine of the Assumption was one that developed over time. It was not something new but rather the logical result of what was already known (Mary’s Immaculate Conception).

Pseudo – Melito

If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 [A.D. 300]).
**
Timothy of Jerusalem**

Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

The Lord said to his Mother, “Let your heart rejoice and be glad. For every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens”. . . And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise (The Dormition of Mary [A.D. 400]).

Gregory of Tours

[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones. . . (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 575]).

 

[Rolltide]

continued from above…

Theoteknos of Livias

It was fitting … that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory … should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God (Homily on the Assumption [ca. A.D. 600]).

Modestus of Jerusalem

As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him (Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae [ante A.D. 634]).

Germanus of Constantinople

You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life (Sermon I [A.D. 683]).

John Damascene

It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God (Dormition of Mary [A.D. 697])
**
Gregorian Sacramentary**

Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself (Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda [ante A.D. 795]

Given the above evidence, it surely points to the fact that the church has always held constant on this teaching.

 

[Rolltide]

Another point… this is one of the few concepts in Christianity that can actually be logically deduces as having to be true without reference to the Bible. It is the natural consequence of the Immaculate Conception.

We can deal with the Immaculate Conception as a whole other issue, but assume for the moment that it is true. It is something held as fact by the Catholic Church (and something, I might add, that does have scriptural support). The necessity of the Assumption lies with original sin. The consequence of the original sin of Adam and Eve was death. By virtue of their sinning, they incurred this as their penalty. However, if Mary was Immaculately Conceived, and remained sinless throughout her life, it would not have been possible for her to die, at least not as other humans do.

Now, the Catholic Church does not state definitively whether she actually died or not, so there are two scenarios. The first renders her physically incapable of dying, and so God has to physically “Assume” her into Heaven. The other renders her physically incapable of dying in the normal way, and so God allows her to die painlessly by going to sleep, and then is Assumed. In any case, there are Biblical examples of this happening (most specifically, Elijah), so why would this be so surprising for the most honored of human beings? In any case, if the Immaculate Conception and the penalty of death from original sin are true, then the Assumption MUST be true.

 

[Subrosa]

Now, the Catholic Church does not state definitively whether she actually died or not, so there are two scenarios.

Actually, She does say that Mary died.

Here is the document declaring the dogma of the Assumption of Mary…Munificentissimus Deus. It has many references to her bodily death.

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM

Subrosa

 

[scylla]

Now what about if someone believes that Jesus was a robot?

And in 100 years the Pope has to reaffirm that Jesus was fully man and fully God and declare that He wasn’t a robot.

Did the Pope just pull out that belief out of a hat. It isn’t in the Bible that He wasn’t a robot. I do not see the words
“Jesus wasn’t a robot”
But once the Pope declares it does it mean that truth changed? Did the Catholic Church then make up a new belief, or just defend truth?

God Bless
Scylla

 

[AlegreFe]

This is what I believe is evidence from Scripture;

Rev 11:19, 12:1
19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant could be
seen in the temple. There were flashes
of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an
earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman
clothed with the sun, with the moon
under her feet, and on her head a
crown of twelve stars.

Souls do not have feet and a head. This “great sign” is the Church but is certainly also Mary. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant as shown there in Revelations. Since we know this, the “ark” in this next Psalm is also Mary who is now in Heaven with Jesus who “arose” from the dead and is now in His “resting place.”

Psalm 132:8
8 "Arise, LORD, come to your resting
place, you and your majestic ark.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I would also point out that the scriptures cannot account for the disappearance of the Ark. The Jews are silent on this matter as well I think.

All we know that the Ark of the Old Covenant was assumed into Heaven since it is seen in Heaven.

The scriptures don’t record it being assumed, but assumed it was nonetheless.

 

[AlegreFe]

All we know that the Ark of the Old Covenant was assumed into Heaven since it is seen in Heaven.

The Ark of the Old Covenant has been fulfilled as Jesus promised that He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them. One of the fulfillments is certainly that Mary is the NEW Ark of the New Covenant, and she is in Heaven with God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. She can be seen as appeared in the sky per Revelations 11:19, 12:1.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
All we know that the Ark of the Old Covenant was assumed into Heaven since it is seen in Heaven.

meant to say:

We all know that the Ark of the Old Covenant was assumed into Heaven since it is seen in Heaven.