Questions on Immaculate Conception

[ematouk]

I did not see anyone else address this, if the did, sorry for the repeat.

The Catholic Church, Latin Rite as well as other Rites, do not teach that Mary could not die.

Although her death is not “officially” part of the infallible declaration, it is quite clear that the consensus was that Mary did in fact die.

Again, the few words of the official proclamation are silent on her death, “finished the course of her earthly life”, but in no way indicates that Mary could not die.

God Bless,
Maria

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to the assumption of Mary in regards to when I said that quote. I was referring to the Immaculate Conception.

If Mary was immaculately concieved (free from Original Sin), then does it not follow that she could not possibly die? Since death is a consequence of the Original Sin?

But yet, i find that most Catholics believe that she died, in fact many of the early church fathers taught that died before being assumed into heaven.

Isn’t this a little bit contradictory?

God bless.

 

[Alexius]

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to the assumption of Mary in regards to when I said that quote. I was referring to the Immaculate Conception.

If Mary was immaculately concieved (free from Original Sin), then does it not follow that she could not possibly die? Since death is a consequence of the Original Sin?

But yet, i find that most Catholics believe that she died, in fact many of the early church fathers taught that died before being assumed into heaven.

Isn’t this a little bit contradictory?

God bless.

As far I am aware, the Blessed Theotokos was preserved from the “stain of Original Sin,” but not the consequences. Even if one followed the thoughts of some theologians who teach that the body and soul are of the same nature, the stain is not attached to one’s nature.

Hard question though, as I see body and soul as one in nature and man’s nature as wounded/distorted. If death is the consequence and the Blessed Theotokos was not born spiritually dead (in Eastern terms), then she would not be subject to bodily death either…

Hopefully someone can sort this out…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[PRmerger]

If Mary was immaculately concieved (free from Original Sin), then does it not follow that she could not possibly die? Since death is a consequence of the Original Sin?

Then how do we reconcile this with Christ’s death? Jesus died, yet had no sin…

 

[ematouk]

Then how do we reconcile this with Christ’s death? Jesus died, yet had no sin…

I said it in an earlier post.

Christ took upon our sins. This is why He died. This is why He suffered and toiled. The early church asked this same question and St Paul responded “Christ died **for our sins **according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) He “bore **our sins in His own body **on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24) and again He “gave Himself for our sins” (Galatians 1:4).

To be sure St Paul says it more explicitly here “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

My argument was… Why did Mary die? If one tried to compare her with Christ for an answer they are comparing apples with oranges. Christ died for our sins.

Mary did not take upon anybody elses sin into her own body. Mary did not die for our sins. If she was immaculately concieved, there must be a reason why she died!

I think I can feel the dogma being defined soon that Mary did not die. lol.

Does anyone have a good answer to this dilemma?

God bless.

 

[MariaG]

I said it in an earlier post.

Christ took upon our sins. This is why He died. This is why He suffered and toiled. The early church asked this same question and St Paul responded “Christ died **for our sins **according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) He “bore **our sins in His own body **on the tree” (1 Peter 2:24) and again He “gave Himself for our sins” (Galatians 1:4).

To be sure St Paul says it more explicitly here “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

My argument was… Why did Mary die? If one tried to compare her with Christ for an answer they are comparing apples with oranges. Christ died for our sins.

Mary did not take upon anybody elses sin into her own body. Mary did not die for our sins. If she was immaculately concieved, there must be a reason why she died!

I think I can feel the dogma being defined soon that Mary did not die. lol.

Does anyone have a good answer to this dilemma?

God bless.

We do not subscribe to a belief in substitutionary atonement. Since we do not, it is not problematical at all that Mary died even though she was not concieved with original sin.

To get into that more, you should probably start a thread on substitionary atonement as it is beyond the scope of the immaculate conception

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Jordan_Francis]

I think Mary, even though personally free from the stain of Original Sin, was still birthed into a world where nature has been touched by man’s falleness. She would have to be mortal, I think, in order to be comprehensible to the world as heaven has not yet come nor had Christ come when she was born.

Christ was a perfect human being , but he was certainly mortal. Mary too, for the plan of salvation, had to be formed according to nature’s fallen state- she was mortal and aged. This, I believe, was so that her death and assumption would act as a sign of hope and proclaim to us the redemption found in Christ.

Imagine if she was born as already a being of the Beatific vision! I think that would have caused much confusion. God is all wise and I think it was in his plan that she suffer death.

 

[MariaG]

We do not subscribe to a belief in substitutionary atonement. Since we do not, it is not problematical at all that Mary died even though she was not concieved with original sin.

To get into that more, you should probably start a thread on substitionary atonement as it is beyond the scope of the immaculate conception

God Bless,
Maria

I should have said “strict” substitionary atonement.

My apologies for not catching the mistake in time to edit it.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I think that there were different results that came from Adam and Eve’s Fall.

One was the loss of sancitifying grace–after the Fall mankind would be “Inclined to sin” instead of being inclined to do God’s will.

After that man suffered from concupiscence–the reason that Adam and Eve knew that they were naked and were ashamed and made themselves clothes.

Before the fall they didn’t have an inclination towards sin so there was no need for clothes.

In the Immaculate Conception Sanctifying grace was restored to Mary at the time of conception so that she never suffered from inclination towards sin and Jesus would draw his humanity from Mary’s humanity which like pre-fall Adam and Eve wasn’t inclined to sin.

But another aspect of post-fall humanity was that Adam and Eve would have to work and could not depend upon God directly for sustenance.

Mary inherited this attribute from her parents–sanctifying grace did not cover that element of her humanity.

God chose to Immaculately create Mary with No Inclination towards sin but WITH the need to have to work.

The reason God could not create Jesus twithout the need to work is that if He had created Jesus WITHOUT the need to work then Jesus wouldn’t have shared in our humanity–the humanity that mary had that still had to hunger and thirst and sweat and work for a living.

On the other hand if Jesus was created independently from Mary–if she wasn’t Immaculately conceived like the Protestants say–if God created Jesus with a humanity that had a need to work like Adam and Mary and Eve had–then God would have been UNJUST for the divine Person Jesus had done nothing to deserve that punishment from God.

God as Jesus could CHOOSE to unite with the part of Mary’s humanity that had a need to work because that need was not inherrently blemished.

But for Jesus to unite with concupiscence or Inclination towards sin would be impossible because Perfect Jesus as God cannot unite with anything that is inclined against God.

So by creating Mary by the Immaculate Conception and Jesus by the Virgin birth by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit Christ was able to share in all the brokenness of humanity after the fall that while broken still wasn’t inclined towards evil.

I maintain that the Immaculate Conception and subsequently the Virgin birth was the most perfect way for Jesus to share in all our post-fall humanity that was broken yet not inclined to sin and thus preserve both our humanity in His humanity and still maintain his Perfection as Perfect God.

Son of Man–Son of God–Both God and Man!

Any thoughts?