Questions on Mary and Perpetual Virginity

[Vico]

…

A1. Mary mother of Jesus, James, and Joseph (Matt 27:55-61)?
1. Mary Salome’s (wife of Zebedee) sons are James the Greater and John the Evangelist (not the Baptist)
2. “Mary, the sister of the Blessed Virgin, having two sons, James and Joseph, by a first marriage, was married a second time to Cleophas, brother of St. Joseph, who also had two sons, Simon and Jude, by a former marriage.” - http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/marycleo.htm
A2. one divine person with two natures
A3. Mary was saved from the first moment of her conception in anticipation of her acceptance at the meeting with Angel Gabriel.
Luke 1:46-48 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
A4. Mother of Jesus Christ. Collins Dictionary channel (1): 5a any means of passage.

 

[GrowingInTheFaith]

I believe that Jesus and God are one and the same but it confused me when I saw the term ‘Mother of God’ because I’ve really only heard her called the Virgin Mary and when you put it that way it makes it seem like, from my perspective, she is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit instead of the Son. I understand that Jesus is God but you have to understand that it sounds different and kind of weird to me, a lot of things about the Catholic church do/did. The term used for Mary is just a little matter of confusion for me.

 

[GrowingInTheFaith]

Okay. I just didn’t know where the official website was and I forgot there was even an official website. Thanks for explaining things to me y’all, this is a little confusing.

 

[GrowingInTheFaith]

I believe that Jesus and God are one and the same but it confused me when I saw the term ‘Mother of God’ because I’ve really only heard her called the Virgin Mary and when you put it that way it makes it seem like, from my perspective, she is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit instead of the Son. I understand that Jesus is God but you have to understand that it sounds different and kind of weird to me, a lot of things about the Catholic church do/did. The term used for Mary is just a little matter of confusion for me.

 

[Wesrock]

Understandable. It’s used in the Orthodox churches, too. And while Lutherans and Anglicans may sometimes shy away from it because it makes them think of Catholics, Mary has the title Mother of God in both of those denominations.

 

[godisgood77]

I believe that Jesus and God are one and the same but it confused me when I saw the term ‘Mother of God’ because I’ve really only heard her called the Virgin Mary and when you put it that way it makes it seem like, from my perspective, she is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit instead of the Son. I understand that Jesus is God but you have to understand that it sounds different and kind of weird to me, a lot of things about the Catholic church do/did. The term used for Mary is just a little matter of confusion for me.

I get how it can be confusing… it takes time and understanding to get our heads around this…

For me it has become easier to understand Mary’s divine motherhood when I keep in mind that God created Mary before anything else she did or experienced and that Mary in no way created God. God granted Mary perhaps the greatest gift - bearing and birthing Jesus. In that way, she is the Mother of God.

 

[Francis]

I believe that Jesus and God are one and the same but it confused me when I saw the term ‘Mother of God’ because I’ve really only heard her called the Virgin Mary and when you put it that way it makes it seem like, from my perspective, she is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit instead of the Son. I understand that Jesus is God but you have to understand that it sounds different and kind of weird to me, a lot of things about the Catholic church do/did. The term used for Mary is just a little matter of confusion for me.

why should it be confusing and weird? when you have the Word of God so clear as in Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?

John 17:17… the Word of God is Truth.

 

[Dovekin]

how do I know that Mary the mother of James and Joseph isn’t Jesus’s mother?

You cannot be certain. Mary already appeared in Matthew 13:55: Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

It certainly seems likely that “Mary, the mother of James and Joseph” is the Mary, the mother of Jesus, especially given that John tells us the mother of Jesus was there. This does not say anything about Mary being the biological mother of any of these, the oldest tradition is that she is St Joseph’s 3rd wife (all named Mary!). Stepmother is mother if she has raised a family with 5 boys and some sisters. (Which one of these is actually hers? I knew quintuplets, and they usually brought confusion when they came around.)

Why of James and Joseph, and not of Jesus? I have no idea. Mark is even odder, mother of James and Joseph at the crucifixion, of Joseph at burial and of James on Easter. Is that 1, 2 or 3 women? Matthew at least just says “the other Mary.”

So you can make a case that they are all the mother of Jesus. Others have identified them separately in their devotions. Most Catholics have not thought about it much, since John places the mother of Jesus at the crucifixion.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It doesn’t seem likely to me that Jesus’ mother would be identified as “Mary, the mother of James and Joseph” rather than “Mary, the mother of Jesus” when Scripture is writing about Jesus.

The “brothers” in Matthew 13:55 could just as well be cousins as stepbrothers, based on the usage of the original word at the time the gospel was written.

Bottom line is it’s impossible for us to know “for sure” but there’s sufficient support for me to personally opine that “Mary, the mother of James and Joseph”, also known as “Mary of Cleophas”, wasn’t Mary the Mother of Jesus (and that Mary the Mother of Jesus did not remarry some guy named Cleophas after Joseph died).

Mary, mother of James - Wikipedia

Mary of Clopas - Wikipedia

 

[Londoner]

I would agree that culturally the title Mother of God is more commonly used in some Christian traditions than in others. For example, Polish Catholics will frequently say ‘Matka Boża’, whereas English Catholics are more likely to use the title ‘Our Lady’ and Anglicans more commonly say ‘Blessed Virgin Mary’.

I can assure you, however, that when Catholics say ‘Mother of God’ they do not mean ‘Mother of the Holy Trinity’. This is because while Jesus is only one of the three persons of the Trinity, he is still fully God. It is therefore correct to say that Mary is the Mother of God. This view was accepted by Luther and by Zwingli and was more recently reiterated by Karl Barth (probably the most important Protestant theologian since the Reformation). Arguably Calvin also accepted the definition of Mary as the Mother of God in principle, i.e. on Christological grounds, but discouraged its use as he saw that it tended to encourage a cult of Marian devotion that he considered ignorant and superstitious.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would agree that culturally the title Mother of God is more commonly used in some Christian traditions than in others. For example, Polish Catholics will frequently say ‘Matka Boża’, whereas English Catholics are more likely to use the title ‘Our Lady’ and Anglicans more commonly say ‘Blessed Virgin Mary’.

It’s used daily by every Catholic that says the “Hail Mary” prayer, when we say, “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners…” and if we pray the daily Rosary we repeat that 53 times.

 

[Dovekin]

It doesn’t seem likely to me that Jesus’ mother would be identified as “Mary, the mother of James and Joseph” rather than “Mary, the mother of Jesus” when Scripture is writing about Jesus.

Well, if you had written Mark, it would no doubt read differently. But the only point was that we cannot be certain, with which you agree, so it does not matter.

Mary of Clopas is another uncertainty. I was taught “they are probably two different persons. Cleopas is a Greek name, contracted from Cleopater, while Cleophas, or Clopas as in the Revised Version, is an Aramaic name, the same as Alphaeus…” Smith’s Bible Dictionary as quoted at Biblehub.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The “Smith’s Bible Dictionary” you quote seems to be about whether Mary of Cleophas was married to the disciple who was on the road to Emmaus, which isn’t really germane to whether Mary of Cleophas or Mary Mother of Jesus was the one in the Gospel standing by the cross or going to the tomb.

I am sure if there were umpteen Jameses, Judases, Josephs, Simons, and Marys, there could easily be multiple Cleophases or Clopases or whatever.

 

[Londoner]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant in everyday speech, not when reciting a set form of words. English Catholics will also be used to prayer the prayer for the conversion of England, which begins, ‘O Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our most gentle Queen and Mother …’ However, English-speaking Catholics I know would typically refer to Mary as ‘Our Lady’, not as ‘Mother of God’ when referring to her in ordinary idiomatic speech.

 

[De_Maria]

First Question: In Matthew 27:55-61, how do I know that Mary the mother of James and Joseph isn’t Jesus’s mother?

Scripture makes it clear. Let’s go through some passages. Did Jesus have any brothers? According to some, Scripture attests that Jesus had brothers, sons of Mary. They base their opinion on this verse:

Matthew 13
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:

However, these brothers and sisters in Christ, fail to realize that the word “brother” has meant much more than “brothers of the womb” from time immemorial. Good friends call themselves “brothers” even today. And a closer examination of Scripture proves that James, Joseph, Simon and Jude are sons of another Mary, not Jesus’ mother, but Jesus’ aunt.

First, we see that Jesus’ mother has a “sister”. From Catholic Tradition, we know that Jesus’ mother is an only child. So, her sister is really a cousin or other close kin:

John 19 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

We also note that this Mary is always mentioned with Mary Magdalen. The two must have been close friends:

Mark 16 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices, that coming, they might anoint Jesus.

Note that in this verse she is not called Mary of Cleophas, but Mary the mother of James.

Mark 15 40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome:

Here she is the mother of James and Joseph and Salome. The mention of Salome explains the “sisters” of Jesus. Since Mary the sister of Mary His Mother is also His sister or kin.

Matthew 27 56 Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Luke 24 10 And it was Mary Magdalen, and Joanna, and Mary of James, and the other women that were with them, who told these things to the apostles.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with @GrowingInTheFaith

Did Mary have other children.

Sometimes she is called “the other” Mary.

Matthew 27 61 And there was there Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary sitting over against the sepulchre.

OK, so far we’ve established that James and Joseph are the sons of the other Mary. Not of Jesus’ mother. What about Simon and Jude?

Luke 6 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Well, Jude is the brother of James. He says so himself:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James: to them that are beloved in God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

And, although Simon the Zealot is rarely mentioned, when he is mentioned, he is always grouped with either James or Jude.

Luke 6 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,

Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.

If we review the listing of Apostles, we will see that the Apostle mentioned as Thaddeus must be Jude and Simon the Zelotes must be Simon the Cananean:

Mark 3 16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter: 17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: 18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, and Simon the Cananean:19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Matthew 10 2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Acts Of Apostles 1 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.

Luke 6 13 And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles). 14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, 16 And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

So, we see that James, Joseph, Jude and Simon are related to Jesus. But they are not the sons of Mary, but her distant kin and thus also Jesus kin.

I hope that helps.

 

[De_Maria]

Why wouldn’t Jesus’s mother assist in the burial…?

According to Catholic Mystic tradition, Jesus appeared to her first, in her home, while she was praying in ecstasy. Therefore, she already knew that He had arisen.

Assuming this is a different Mary, …

The question is ambiguous with respect to which Mary you are making reference.

So, let me rephrase. If the mother of James and Joses is also the Mother of Jesus, I’m sure that the Bible would have explicitly said so. Since she is not, the Bible has explicitly shown that she is not.

Second Question: Why do Catholics say Mary is the mother of God?

Because Jesus is God.

I agree that she is the mother of Jesus, …

Yes. She is. She is the mother of Jesus, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Again, I mean no offense by this question I’m just trying to understand…

No offense taken. Let me explain. When God knits us in the womb, our mothers bring the flesh. God brings the spirit. This is explained in Scripture.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

So, when Jesus was made flesh in Mary’s womb, Mary provided the flesh. God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity provided His Spirit.

John 4:24 God is spirit, …

I hope that makes sense.

Third Question How could Mary be born without the stain of original sin?..

Do you remember in Scripture where it says:

Luke 1:49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.

Being conceived immaculate is one of the great things which Jesus did for His Mother.

“Why?”, you ask. Because it is one of the Commandments (Exodus 20:12) and He kept the Commandments perfectly.

He wouldn’t have been much of a Son if He hadn’t honored His Mother to the fullest extent possible. After all, He is all powerful God.

Fourth Question Can you explain the following Catholic dogmas about Mary? …

1. Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, …

That is correct. If that’s a question, it seems self-explanatory. I don’t know what that is in parenthesis.

1. Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven …

That seems correct based on the fact that we are described as her children, in Scripture.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

1. Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)

Agreed.

1. Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)

Sounds like #2.

1. Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)

That simply means that she is regarded as higher than the other Saints because she is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Basically, she is the Queen of Heaven.

Thank you to everyone who answers this question! I appreciate the time it takes to answer them.

God bless you all!

~A sister in Christ

I hope that helps.

A Brother in Christ

 

[prayerrider]

The Immaculate Conception ? Yes. A piece of cake for an all powerful God.