Questions on Mary

[FightingFat]

The following questions have been asked of me by a Baptist

Unless otherwise noted, quotations under “What Rome Says” are from the following official Roman Catholic catechisms:
A: The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, English Translation Copyright 1994, United States Catholic Conference. Numbers in brackets indicate page and article numbers.
B: The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism, by John A. Hardon, S.J., copyright 1981.
C: The New Saint Jospeph Baltimore Catechism, Official Revised Edition No. 2; Copyright 1962.
D. Saint Joseph Annotated Catechism, by Rev. Anthony Schraner, Copyright 1981

Mary as Redeemer

What Rome Says
(Ref. A1) “(Mary) by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix.” [A: Page 252, #969]

(Ref. A2) “She (Mary) cooperated . . . in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls.” [A: Page 252, #968]

(Ref. A3) “Mary is called our mediatrix first because she cooperated in a unique way with Christ in his redemptive labors on earth. She is also mediatrix because she continues to intercede for us who are still working out our salvation on earth or suffering in purgatory.” (B: Page 69, #253]

(Ref A4) “Mary is the mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What that means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession. Through God’s will, grace is not conferred on anyone without Mary’s intercession.” (Catholicism and Fundamentalism, by Karl Keating, Copyright 1988; with Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur: Page 279)

(Ref A5) “O god,. . . grant, we beseech Thee, that, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother, we may attain the joys of eternal life.” [C: Page 7}

Rome admits there is no Biblical support for this doctrine, but that is came from her ‘sacred Tradition.’
(Ref. B1) “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Timothy 2:4-6)

(Ref. B2) " Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)

(Ref. B3) "Wherefore he (Christ) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he (Christ )ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

(Ref. B4) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

(Ref. B5) “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

(Ref. B6) “This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12)

(Ref. B7) “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1-2)

Take a few minutes to compare the teaching of Rome with the Word of God. Keep in mind that Rome does agree with the Bible when it says that grace is necessary for salvation (Acts 15:11; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:5, 8-9). You will soon notice that Rome’s idea of grace and the Bible’s idea of grace are completely different! In this matter of grace, compare (Ref. A4) and (Ref. B4). Now please answer the following questions.

[/quote]

 

[FightingFat]

Continued…

Do you see that Rome teaches that the only way the grace for salvation gets to you is through Mary? Yes No

Do you see that the Bible says that grace is free gift, directly from God, and yours for that asking? Yes No

Who do you believe - God or Rome? God Rome

Is it clear that Rome teaches that Mary is our intercessor, our redeemer, and the only one through whom the grace necessary for salvation can come to you? Yes No

Is it equally clear that the Word of God teaches that Jesus, and only Jesus, is our intercessor, our redeemer? Yes No

The answer to both questions is clearly “Yes!” This leaves the Roman Catholic in a dilemma: since they contradict each other, both can not be right! Thus the Roman Catholic is forced to ask, “Who shall I believe - God or Rome?” Who do you choose to believe, dear surfer?

Is there any record of an Apostle or disciple of Jesus praying to Mary. Yes No

You can read the New Testament from beginning to end and never find so much as a hint that the Apostles or disciples every prayed to Mary.

Is there any record of Jesus declaring that Mary had a share with him as the Mediator between God and Man? Yes No
The Apostles and disciples never prayed to Mary. Jesus never assigned to Mary even the slightest role of intercession with God, but claimed that He, and He alone is our intercessor. These facts are certain. Therefore, isn’t the Roman Catholic belief and practice of praying to Mary as our intercessor a direct contradiction of God’s Word?Your Answer?

Yes, Rome contradicts the Word of God in the matter of praying to Mary as an intercessor.

No, Rome does not contradict the Word of God in the matter of praying to Mary as an intercessor.

If you say “No.” what is your proof?

 

[dawnlewis]

It is misleading to say Catholics pray TO Mary. We are asking for her intercession and help. Just as Baptists regularly join together and pray for someone they have chosen. It is the same concept.

Baptists and other faiths have to understand that we believe in sacred Tradition. Ask your friend who in his church determines Baptist Tradition. Is it by vote? Who determines controversies on Scripture in the Baptist church? Vote? Who gave those voters their qualifications? What makes them any different than Methodist voters?

 

[1ke]

The quotes are, for the most part, taken out of context or have parts left out of them. However, the quotes are not wrong nor do they teach anything in error.

Do you see that Rome teaches that the only way the grace for salvation gets to you is through Mary? The Catholic Church does not teach what you have claimed here. Therefore the answer is “no”.

*Do you see that the Bible says that grace is free gift, directly from God, and yours for that asking? * The Catholic Church teaches Grace is a free gift from God. Therefore I believe the Catholic Church and the Bible as they are in accord.

*Is it clear that Rome teaches that Mary is our intercessor, our redeemer, and the only one through whom the grace necessary for salvation can come to you? * The Catholic Chruch does not teach that Mary is our Redeemer. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is our Redeemer. Mary is an intercessor, just as you and I are also intercessors.

*Is it equally clear that the Word of God teaches that Jesus, and only Jesus, is our intercessor, our redeemer? * The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is our one and only one Redeemer. The Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus is the only intercessor because the Bible clearly teaches that we can intercede for each other.

Is there any record of an Apostle or disciple of Jesus praying to Mary. This is actually not relevant as Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine. However, yes, there is much evidence from the early Church regarding intercessory prayer and the Communion of Saints, and in fact from the Bible itself. See Revelations 8:3 for example.

You can read the New Testament from beginning to end and never find so much as a hint that the Apostles or disciples every prayed to Mary. And, again this is irrelevant because Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine.

Is there any record of Jesus declaring that Mary had a share with him as the Mediator between God and Man? Irrelevant.

The Apostles and disciples never prayed to Mary. No, they prayed with Mary-- as she was still alive at the time.

*Jesus never assigned to Mary even the slightest role of intercession with God, but claimed that He, and He alone is our intercessor. These facts are certain. * This contradicts numerous Scripture passages.

Therefore, isn’t the Roman Catholic belief and practice of praying to Mary as our intercessor a direct contradiction of God’s Word?Your Answer? No.

FightingFat–
I’d suggest you get some books on this subject if you intend to answer their questions. It is incumbent on you to do the research on this FightingFat. There are many books on the concept of intercessory prayer and the communion of saints. There are apologetic materials. However, based on the way this entire thing is framed by whomever you got it from, it is clear they are not interested in dialog. Therefore, I would not even waste my time.

 

[Church_Militant]

Do you see that Rome teaches that the onl

y way the grace for salvation gets to you is through Mary? Yes NoNo. This is nothing but their interpretation of our Marian belief, and we do disagree with them. Moreover that is not factually accurate and I suspect that you know that already FF.

Do you see that the Bible says that grace is free gift, directly from God, and yours for that asking? Yes No

Yes, however, grace is freely given and in fact it is given to all without asking for it. What is odd about this is that this person will no doubt try to tell you that salvation requires no works, and yet that asking is most definitely an action is it not?

Who do you believe - God or Rome? God Rome

This is pretty blatant well poisoning in an effort to get you to make “choices” that are not real but that would bias your thinking.

The better question would be perhaps; “Who do you believe - God or…” the Baptist church that he attends and their interpretation of doctrines, or the Catholic Church which can be traced back to Jesus Himself and has 2,000 years of verifiable Christian teaching to show that what they believe is not only taught by the New Testament, but by all Christians since?

Is it clear that Rome teaches that Mary is our intercessor, our redeemer, and the only one through whom the grace necessary for salvation can come to you? Yes No

NO! This is futher well poisoning. Firstly “Rome” (this type of nomenclature is perjorative anyway.), teaches no such thing, and I again suspect that you know better. (If not then you need to be busy studying our most holy faith instead of monkeying around with biased people like this one. This almost sounds like an anti-Catholic “Bible study” to me). This shows how abysmally this person comprehends the Catholic teachings that he has cited to you.

Is it equally clear that the Word of God teaches that Jesus, and only Jesus, is our intercessor

, our redeemer? Yes NoAbsolutely NOT! Jesus Christ is our redeemer but anything but our only intercessor and the Word of God does not support them in this remark. James 5:15 & 16, 1st John 5:15, 1st Tim 2:1, Eph 6:18, Rom 15:30, Acts 12:5, Gen. 48:16, Numbers 12:13, Tobit 12:12, 2nd Mac 3:31, Zech 1:12. These passages show how we are commanded to intercede for others and also show examples of such intercession. Your Baptist friend is messed up. Especially so for someone whose denom teaches Sola Scriptura.

The answer to both questions is clearly “Yes!” This leaves the Roman Catholic in a dilemma: since they contradict each other, both can not be right! Thus the Roman Catholic is forced to ask, “Who shall I believe - God or Rome?” Who do you choose to believe, dear surfer?

Only in the mind of someone who has drunk deeply from this person’s poisoned well…

Is there any record of an Apostle or disciple of Jesus praying to Mary. Yes No

Is there any record of an apostle or disciple making an “altar call” or praying a “sinner’s prayer” or of exclusively baptizing by immersion, or teaching that the Bible (edited to remove 7 books!) should be the sole source of Christian belief and practice? Nope!

You can read the New Testament from beginning to end and never find so much as a hint that the Apostles or disciples every prayed to Mary.

Same response as above.

Is there any record of Jesus declaring that Mary had a share with him as the Mediator between God and Man? Yes No

Yes in fact there is, but it wasn’t Jesus, it was the Holy Spirit the day that Jesus was presented at the temple. Luke 2:25-35

The Apostles and disciples never prayed to Mary. Jesus never assigned to Mary even the slightest role of intercession with God, but claimed that He, and He alone is our intercessor. These facts are certain.

Therefore, isn’t the Roman Catholic belief and practice of praying to Mary as our intercessor a direct contradiction of God’s Word?Your Answer?We don’t know that and the rest of this is just more poisoning of the well. What facts? I’ve already shown that his premise is unscriptural. The intercession of saints is anything but a contradiction of God’s Word, but there ARE Baptist inventions that are, as I’ve listed above. My answer? Be off ya heretic!

No, Rome does not contradict the Word of God in the matter of praying to Mary as an intercessor.

Finally! Something that I, (as a catholic that knows his faith and the Word of God) can agree with!

If you say “No.” what is your proof?

Listed above. May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to it.
Pax tecum FF!

 

[hurst]

dawnlewis:

It is misleading to say Catholics pray TO Mary. We are asking for her intercession and help. Just as Baptists regularly join together and pray for someone they have chosen. It is the same concept.

Actually, we do pray TO Mary, and there is nothing wrong with that. What is misleading is to interpret the term “pray” as something one is only allowed to “do to” God.

The very act of “asking her” is praying to her. Thus, we can and do “pray” to others, even others on earth. The legal system has that terminology embedded in it, too, btw.

From Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Pray : \Pray, v. t.

1. To address earnest request to; to supplicate; to entreat; to implore; to beseech.
2. To ask earnestly for; to seek to obtain by supplication; to entreat for.
3. To effect or accomplish by praying

hurst

 

[FightingFat]

1ke:

FightingFat–
I’d suggest you get some books on this subject if you intend to answer their questions. It is incumbent on you to do the research on this FightingFat. There are many books on the concept of intercessory prayer and the communion of saints. There are apologetic materials. However, based on the way this entire thing is framed by whomever you got it from, it is clear they are not interested in dialog. Therefore, I would not even waste my time.

Thanks, I agree and one of the reasons I do get involved in these somewhat pointless battles is that it truly does improve my own understanding- I find myself inspired to read further. I offer the topic here to get some great suggestions from people more skilled in these kinds of discussions than myself and to get some ideas about direction and content.

Thank you.

 

[Lorarose]

I have heard non-catholics often make remarks about ministers or evangelists who they consider to be gifted by God in “leading souls to Christ”
They will say things like “Pastor so-and-so has a great gift - he has saved many souls.”
Or “Pastor has won many souls for Christ”

Sound familiar?

And yet… I understand these folks don’t think the Pastor is the SOURCE for salvation - or that he is the only path to salvation.
They understand his role is intercessory and evangelical.

Mary is an intercessor - and she is an evangelest as well.

The root of this problem is many non-catholics think those who have died do not have the capability to interceed - or to have any awareness of events on earth. They think they are “asleep in the Lord” They compare our belief in intercession of the saints as similar to visiting mediums or holding seances.

 

[IanS]

All prayer has God as its object. When we “pray to Mary” we are really praying to God through Mary and are asking Mary to intercede and present out petitions to God. Recall how Solomon promised not to refuse any request of Bathsheba, the Queen Mother (1Kings 2:19-20). Nor will the King of kings refuse to hear the petitions of His Queen Mother, just as he did not refuse her request at the wedding feast in Cana (John 2).

Mary’s intercession is completely subordinate to, and dependant on Jesus’ mediation.*

1Timothy
1: First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2: for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6: who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.
7: For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8: I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;*

St. Paul also commands Christians to intercede for one another. This doesn’t go around Christ’s mediation, but rather through it. Because Jesus is the one mediator between heaven and earth, we as members of the body of Christ are able to participate with Him as mediator. The reason for singling out Mary’s intercession is because she is God’s most righteous Saint and “the prayer of the righteous has powerful effects".

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

 

[scylla]

There have been some very good answers to you questions here so I will try and cap it off with a question you should ask.

Since you can clarify these questions and they falsely present Catholicism then what he is disagreeing with is not the Catholic Church but a twisted understanding of it.
So now you can present to him his false understanding of the Church, he has no reason to disagree with it other than bigotry since you can prove he doesn’t understand it correctly.

Say something to this effect after you have answered him, or else you will just get more objections attacking something else and you will go round and round.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[johnshelby]

Mary interceded at the wedding feast at
Cana… she asked Jesus, God, to provide
wine… and against His own … judgement?
(“mine hour is not yet come.” ( KJV))…
he did as his mother, Mary, asked…

i have no reason to believe He would not
now continue to do as she asks…

so, i ask her to pray for me, to the Lord
our God… i ask that you all pray for me…

i need it…