Questions on miralces

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This is to help my understanding of both sides and to promote dialogue between the two.

For the atheists (Pick as many of the following as neccessary, or add your own):
  1. Do you not believe the majority because they can be explained naturally?
  2. Do you not believe due to insufficient eyewitnesses or possibly innaccurate historical accounts?
  3. Do you not believe them because you think there will be an explanation in the future?
  4. Do you not believe because God needs to be presupposed in certain miracles?
  5. Is there certain number of authentic miracles you feel you’ll need to believe in God?
For Christians/Catholics (same applies as the atheists):
  1. Do you believe miracles only the Vatican authenticates?
  2. Do you believe miracles because you already believe in God?
  3. What is your response to miracles from other religions?
  4. Have you had any personal experiences that you can’t explain to be anything other than a miracle?
Thanks, and remember respect. 👍
 
Catholic answers:
  1. no, because the vatican doesn’t have to authenticate it to be real.
  2. not sure what u mean by this question
  3. Other religions? I’m pretty sure that those miracles are either faked or from satan
  4. I said a novena of saint joseph for my friend’s very sick grandmother and she was healed before the novena was done.
God Bless!:crossrc:
Chris
 
  1. not sure what u mean by this question
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Sorry. Since you believe in God, do you believe in miracles without authentic, independent varification.
Or another way to rephrase it. Are you predisposed to believing in miracles because you believe in God?

Thanks for your answers.
 
ccmnxc said:
This is to help my understanding of both sides and to promote dialogue between the two.

For the atheists (Pick as many of the following as neccessary, or add your own):
  1. Do you not believe the majority because they can be explained naturally?
  2. Do you not believe due to insufficient eyewitnesses or possibly innaccurate historical accounts?
  3. Do you not believe them because you think there will be an explanation in the future?
  4. Do you not believe because God needs to be presupposed in certain miracles?
  5. Is there certain number of authentic miracles you feel you’ll need to believe in God
Click to expand...
Same answer for all of these questions.
I don’t believe in supernaturals, Theism, Monotheism, Christianity or Catholicism, I think they are untrue and for many reasons.
It would be illogical to accept that miracles are real when you don’t believe in Catholicism. Not only atheists don’t believe these miracles, people from other faiths don’t believe them too.
 
I am a Catholic and I do believe that miracles can happen in Protestant denominations. Of course we need discernment, whether Catholic or Protestant.

I do desire the unity of all Christians, but I won’t ever say that God doesn’t allow miracles for all believers.

By a miracle it does not have to be something showy and spectacular, just a sudden answer to prayer that the person faithfully prayed. The best miracles are the conversion of hearts to our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
For Christians/Catholics (same applies as the atheists):
  1. Do you believe miracles only the Vatican authenticates?
  2. Do you believe miracles because you already believe in God?
  3. What is your response to miracles from other religions?
  4. Have you had any personal experiences that you can’t explain to be anything other than a miracle?
Click to expand...
  1. In theory, no. In practice, I am not aware of any I accept which are not embraced by the Church.
  2. No, quite the opposite in fact.
  3. I am not aware of any. I am aware that they are claimed, but not of any that would withstand scientific examination. (I admittedly have not looked at them very closely however)
  4. No, but I experienced something as a child which was possibly supernatural intervention.
 
–Thanks for your response, User124. Would I be right to say that you are atheistic due to the fact that there are inconsistancies and inconceivablilties, coupled with lack of evidence?

–
By a miracle it does not have to be something showy and spectacular, just a sudden answer to prayer that the person faithfully prayed. The best miracles are the conversion of hearts to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t have to be flashy or showy, but if you can think of any that would have difficulty being explained as anything other than a miracle, that would be great.

–Thanks for your response Katholish
 
User124 said:
Same answer for all of these questions.
I don’t believe in supernaturals, Theism, Monotheism, Christianity or Catholicism, I think they are untrue and for many reasons.
It would be illogical to accept that miracles are real when you don’t believe in Catholicism. Not only atheists don’t believe these miracles, people from other faiths don’t believe them too.
Click to expand...
So, would you say that you don’t believe in miracles because they are inconsistent with your worldview? Or in other words, you assume in advance that scientific naturalism is true and therefore dismiss miracles because they are inconsistent with this belief?

Or could good evidence for a specific miracle at least in theory persuade you to modify your worldview?
 
danserr said:
So, would you say that you don’t believe in miracles because they are inconsistent with your worldview? Or in other words, you assume in advance that scientific naturalism is true and therefore dismiss miracles because they are inconsistent with this belief?

Or could good evidence for a specific miracle at least in theory persuade you to modify your worldview?
Click to expand...
Both of what you provided, I think Christianity is untrue, it would contradict my world view to believe in Catholic miracles.

Let’s make it more clear, I don’t believe in a god ( I have reasons), I don’t believe in Christianity (I have reasons).
I need a belief in BOTH, God and Christianity to accept these Catholic miracles. (Which I don’t have).
If you tell me about a Catholic miracle I would immediately deny it even before making any evaluation of it, because I think that the basics of these miracles (God and Christianity) are untrue.

If you don’t believe in the Muslim god, you would find it hard to believe in Islamic miracles that ask people to turn into Muslims, so how about an atheist who does not believe in supernaturals at all?

But yes even that I don’t believe in any god or Christianity, I’m interested about beliefs and about what people claim to be a miracle, do you have any miracle on your mind that I can look for it?
 
I’m a Catholic.
  1. No.
  2. Predisposed because of faith? No.
  3. What is your response to miracles from other religions? God, if He chooses, can use anything, person or natural thing that he wants. I don’t put any limits on God.
  4. Have you had any personal experiences that you can’t explain to be anything other than a miracle? Relic placed on dying 4th stage colon cancer… restored to health in one week, instantaneous healing of heroin addict through prayer and laying on of hands.
 
ccmnxc said:
For Christians/Catholics (same applies as the atheists):
  1. Do you believe miracles only the Vatican authenticates?
  2. Do you believe miracles because you already believe in God?
  3. What is your response to miracles from other religions?
  4. Have you had any personal experiences that you can’t explain to be anything other than a miracle?
Click to expand...
  1. No. That being said, I do research what the bishops have said about the miracle itself and reflect on whether it is worthy of belief.
  2. Good question. Going by what I think you’re saying, I’d say no. Even if I didn’t believe in God, I would believe in miracles. But I can’t imagine what my life would be like, to not believe in God.
  3. God is not limited by anything.
  4. There are a few things that others have personally described as a miracle. They weren’t flashy or anything. I think that there are people who would be able to explain it as something other than a miracle. But still, I would consider them as miracles.
 
Catholic.
  1. Yes.
  2. No. Thorough investigation and approval by the Vatican is required.
  3. No comment since I haven’t studied any.
  4. Yes. A business brought back from the verge of bankruptcy through the advice of a non-Catholic Christian (within days before a decision to announce bankruptcy).
Peace,
Ed
 
ccmnxc said:
–Thanks for your response, User124. Would I be right to say that you are atheistic due to the fact that there are inconsistancies and inconceivablilties, coupled with lack of evidence?

–
It doesn’t have to be flashy or showy, but if you can think of any that would have difficulty being explained as anything other than a miracle, that would be great.

–Thanks for your response Katholish
Click to expand...
I didn’t notice your question at first. I don’t believe because I don’t see evidences in any religion, just claims without proofs and because I see much more reasons or evidences that oppose religious beliefs and the gods of these faiths.
 
ccmnxc said:
This is to help my understanding of both sides and to promote dialogue between the two.

For the atheists (Pick as many of the following as neccessary, or add your own):
  1. Do you not believe the majority because they can be explained naturally?
  2. Do you not believe due to insufficient eyewitnesses or possibly innaccurate historical accounts?
  3. Do you not believe them because you think there will be an explanation in the future?
  4. Do you not believe because God needs to be presupposed in certain miracles?
  5. Is there certain number of authentic miracles you feel you’ll need to believe in God?
For Christians/Catholics (same applies as the atheists):
  1. Do you believe miracles only the Vatican authenticates?
  2. Do you believe miracles because you already believe in God?
  3. What is your response to miracles from other religions?
  4. Have you had any personal experiences that you can’t explain to be anything other than a miracle?
Thanks, and remember respect. 👍
Click to expand...
From a Catholic:
  1. No. I don’t believe a miracle needs to be authenticated by the Vatican to be true.
  2. No. I’m VERY skeptical myself to the point I only accept well documented and very likely accounts.
  3. I believe God doesn’t privilege Christians/Catholics for granting a miracle. It can happen to anyone independent of their creed.
  4. There are a few very unlikely events that happened in my life, they can be explained without being a miracle, yes, although it’s very unlikely. I’m too skeptical to believe in coincidences, too… 🤷
 
User124 said:
Both of what you provided, I think Christianity is untrue, it would contradict my world view to believe in Catholic miracles.

Let’s make it more clear, I don’t believe in a god ( I have reasons), I don’t believe in Christianity (I have reasons).
I need a belief in BOTH, God and Christianity to accept these Catholic miracles. (Which I don’t have).
If you tell me about a Catholic miracle I would immediately deny it even before making any evaluation of it, because I think that the basics of these miracles (God and Christianity) are untrue.

If you don’t believe in the Muslim god, you would find it hard to believe in Islamic miracles that ask people to turn into Muslims, so how about an atheist who does not believe in supernaturals at all?

But yes even that I don’t believe in any god or Christianity, I’m interested about beliefs and about what people claim to be a miracle, do you have any miracle on your mind that I can look for it?
Click to expand...
But could sufficient evidence, at least in theory convince you to accept a miracle and modify your worldview?

For example, suppose I see 1000 geese over my life. They are all white. I would have very good reason to acccept the hypothesis that all geese are white. But does this mean that i should always reject the thesis that black geese exist, no matter the evidence, just because my worldview (all geese are white) is inconsistent with the hypothesis that black geese exist? On the contrary, for good evidence I should not reject the new idea out of hand, rather, for good evidence I should be willing to modify my former views.
**
I need a belief in BOTH, God and Christianity to accept these Catholic miracles**
Click to expand...
You are saying (I think) that in order to accept a miracle, you would first need to believe that God exists, and that Christianity is true. But couldn’t the miracle itself be evidence for both of these things if the evidence for it was good enough?

I’ll give an example:

A. Alvin Plantinga exists
B. Alvin Plantinga sent me an email yesterday morning.

Now suppose that all I know about the words Alvin Plantinga is some generic description about a philosopher associated with reformed epistemology who teaches at Notre Dame. I have no other evidence for his existence, and so based on what I know, the probability that such a person exists is very low.

But, suppose one morning I wake up and find an email in my inbox from Plantinga introducing himself from a Notre dame email address and asking me a question.

Based on my prior beliefs, should I say “well, I don’t have evidence that Plantinga exists, so I can’t believe that that email is from him?”
or
Should I accept that email as evidence that Plantinga exists and modify my prior beliefs?

Compared to miracles then take two claims:
A. God exists
B. Jesus rose from the dead. (or any other miracle)

Now, like above, if I were confronted with good evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, I should not just say “well I don’t believe in God, so miracles are impossible.” On the contrary, like above, if the evidence for a miracle is good enough, it should cause me to modify my belief that God does not exist, in the same way that if there is good evidence that Plantinga sent me an email, then I should modify my former belief that he does not exist.
do you have any miracle on your mind that I can look for it
Click to expand...
Yes, the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
  1. reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus
  2. amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343397660&sr=1-1&keywords=the+case+for+christ
  3. amazon.com/Resurrection-Jesus-New-Historiographical-Approach/dp/0830827196/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1343397927&sr=1-1&keywords=licona+resurrection+of+jesus
 
ccmnxc said:
This is to help my understanding of both sides and to promote dialogue between the two.

For the atheists (Pick as many of the following as neccessary, or add your own):
  1. Do you not believe the majority because they can be explained naturally?
  2. Do you not believe due to insufficient eyewitnesses or possibly innaccurate historical accounts?
  3. Do you not believe them because you think there will be an explanation in the future?
  4. Do you not believe because God needs to be presupposed in certain miracles?
  5. Is there certain number of authentic miracles you feel you’ll need to believe in God?
Click to expand...
Cool, you started a new thread.

1) In thinking about it more, the credibility of the people from which I usually hear about miracles is already in question even when talking about non-miracle occurrences.

2) The exact reasons would depend on the specific miracle claim in question. In general popularity alone doesn’t imply validity. We can find court cases where they eye witnesses have been consistently mistaken about what they saw. Also I don’t evaluate all claims as something to be believed or not believe. For example, if some one makes a claim about their checking account balance I’m content under some scenarios as treating it as true; but neither belief nor disbelief describe my position toward it. Now if the person is writing me a check for a rather sizable amount then I would scrutinize the claim a bit more.

Likewise, when some one makes a claim that they’ve experienced a miracle I am content to take them at word value without believing or disbelieving them. Nor am I inclined to pick it apart. Now if that miracle claim is used to try to influence me then I may interact analyze or dismantle it.

3) No. Not all claims can be investigated so it is possible that no explanation can be verified as being applicable to the miracle claim.

4) No, as I’ve encountered miracle claims that have nothing to do with Yahweh or any other god. Most recently I’ve got people approaching me with claims about what certain “special” water can do trying to get me to convince a friend with Leukemia to purchase a $4,000 machine to produce the water so that it will cure her.

5) Nope. I don’t know what it would take to convince me. Believing in some instances isn’t a simple process. I’m afraid I can’t predict my own behaviour here. I don’t really have a lot of experience with being aware of interacting with gods or non-material beings. So I can’t build up any mental model or system of rules for how I would recognize interacting with one.
 
Cool, you started a new thread.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw the posting dates on the other thread and figured I wouldn’t get much of a response. Thanks for sticking with it :D.
Most recently I’ve got people approaching me with claims about what certain “special” water can do trying to get me to convince a friend with Leukemia to purchase a $4,000 machine to produce the water so that it will cure her.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I’ve seen stuff like that and it makes me go absolutely ballistic. People trying to sell miracles is something I have a hard time with.

And Thank you everyone else who responded.
 
Ah yes, Marshall Brain’s website on amputees. Brain makes the false assumption that God would want to, and therefore would, heal amputees. In the Gospels, Jesus healed and ear that was cut off. I think one reason it doesn’t happen is because people seldom ask for it. People like to think that diseases can be cured, but have much more trouble with and amputation because it seems so impossible to heal. Also, I think there are good things that come out of losing limbs, like humility and a need to be more dependent on God, which is something I think we’ve lost in our culture. There are great spiritual reasons for the person who is missing a limb. They also inspire hope in a lot of people.
You can probably find better reasoning, but that my two cents.
 
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