Questions on modesty

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Modesty is a hard word to define. I posted a thread on dressing modestly and I got various replies.

What does it mean by modestly?

Why do we need to dress modestly?

Some people, in their replies, blamed the men who were lusting. I would ask a question, NOT to offend any women here, would you be naked? If a man looks at you, it’s his fault, not yours.

I am really confused at this moment. If my third question offends you, i would like to apologize.
 
Let’s consult the Catechism’s teaching on modesty:Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet (2521-2522).
 
dumbseeker said:
Modesty is a hard word to define. I posted a thread on dressing modestly and I got various replies.

What does it mean by modestly?

Why do we need to dress modestly?

Some people, in their replies, blamed the men who were lusting. I would ask a question, NOT to offend any women here, would you be naked? If a man looks at you, it’s his fault, not yours.

I am really confused at this moment. If my third question offends you, i would like to apologize.
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By nature, men will look at the contours of woman’s body, her hair and skin tone. These are all indications of health and fitness and thus her likely ability to have and raise children. This sets off an automatic sexual response in the male brain. What we do with that is what’s important. Some men can easily let it go, while others will have a hard time forgetting that image when they crawl into bed that night. That’s why bedtime prayers are always a good idea if needs help keeping the mind from going to places it really shoudln’t

Men and women both can gain tramendous peace of mind knowing that this is just the way we are made. Sex is good. The female body is beautiful and pleasurable to the male eye. It is a woman’s responsibility to understand that and dress according to how she wants to be treated. It is a man’s responsibility to control himself by avoiding people and places that lead him to sin.

When I think of modest dress, the 1950s mainstream style of dress seems to be a logical place to set a pretty good standard.

:cool:
 
I’m not at all offended by your third question!

It makes no sense to me to dress in a way that highlights one’s sexual attributes and then expect men to avert their eyes! They have enough trouble with that when we’re modestly dressed. Let’s help them out!

And of course the same thing is true for us women. If a man has ripped pecs and a great six-pack, I’d rather not know about it - except when he’s my hubby.

Dressing immodestly also says you think the most important thing about you is being sexy - and that what you want from the other gender is sex.

It’s not a good spiritual place to be in. And to dress like a prostitute and expect men to control themselves is selfishness.

God bless you,

Ruthie
 
dumbseeker said:
Modesty is a hard word to define. I posted a thread on dressing modestly and I got various replies.

What does it mean by modestly?

Why do we need to dress modestly?

Some people, in their replies, blamed the men who were lusting. I would ask a question, NOT to offend any women here, would you be naked? If a man looks at you, it’s his fault, not yours.

I am really confused at this moment. If my third question offends you, i would like to apologize.
Click to expand...
If a man or woman is walking naked through the city that person will be seen by many.
If a passer by notices this naked person he/she has not sinned by noticing. If he/she stares and starts fantazising he/she is sinning. Our response to outer stimuli is always our own responsibility.
I live in a country where I have trained my eyes and where both males and females have an immodest life style both when it comes to clothing, materialism, drinking, eating and their way of speaking.
I strive not to measure myself on what others do, or how my culture is, but on Jesus Christ.
A persons repsonsibility is not about what he/she has accidentally seen or heard but what he/she does with it.

Some people say many women dress inappropriately today. However, its the men that make the marked of porn able to exist. I am so sick and tired of being confronted with naked bodies on magazines in kiosks just because men pay zillions of dollars every year to watch perverted pictures and movies.

In other words. There is a marked based on demand. Why are many men and women changing their bodies, men bying viagra to get “big” and women getting breast enlargement and more and more silly underwear? Its because the whole secularistic view on body and sexuality is distorted.
This is a sickness that thrives in the spiritual vacuum of western humanism.
There is a totally equal responsibility of men and women in this sin.
As Jesus says: Beware how you use your eyes.

Nudity is not intrincically evil. Nor is showing skin or sexuality… But what is sinful is the way we as modern people have learned to see each others as objects, and how we blame each other for our own sinful hearts, just like Adam blamed Eve for the fall. That was his first sin, by the way, the first sign of his falleness.

Grace
 
Ruthie said:
Dressing immodestly also says you think the most important thing about you is being sexy - and that what you want from the other gender is sex.

Ruthie
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I think this is an error.
I see the problem in many chastity campains is the suspicion that is launched against women and men of our times.

I have seen many men and women who wore inappropriate clothes or simply clothes that did not cover as much as certain others’ at masses and other places but who had no clue that other people looked at them in a funny way.
It can then be discussed who was immodest… the one who projected evil intentions into his or her sister or brother, or the one who was simply did not expect that his clothes mattered.
I find it especially repulsive when small teenage girls are made suspicious of all kinds of will to seduce just because Christian men feel challenged or threatened by their attire.
Your business is what is going on in your own heart. When it comes to the heart of others you have to assume the best intentions.

The question about modesty is one about culture and personal taste, as well as some desire to control other people.
There has been a battle in all of modern time between men and women because of this will to control and subdue women sexuality. Look around in all of the world.
Even in the most islamic countries where women are covered head to toe the war is raging wildly…the men never get enough.
Why, because its not about mere clothes or skin. Its about sexuality and power and about blaming everyone else for ones own straying thoughts.

There is nothing new under the sun.
 
dumbseeker said:
Modesty is a hard word to define. I posted a thread on dressing modestly and I got various replies.

What does it mean by modestly?

Why do we need to dress modestly?

Some people, in their replies, blamed the men who were lusting. I would ask a question, NOT to offend any women here, would you be naked? If a man looks at you, it’s his fault, not yours.

I am really confused at this moment. If my third question offends you, i would like to apologize.
Click to expand...
People naturally want to look good. We must remind ourselves, however, that our appearance is transitory, will deteriorate with age, and is definitely not our salvation. I know first-hand. I used to lift weights like crazy, because I loved the way I looked when buff. Now, at 51, my shoulder-joints are worn out, and can’t support heavy-lifting. I’ve shrunken, don’t like it, but can’t really do anything about it. It’s been a great lesson in humility and modesty. The Cult of the Body is misguided, as the Christian religion has always maintained.
 
First, I’m female. I think that it is every bit my responsibility to cover myself as it is for men to either look away or clear their mind of impure thoughts. My friends have laughed at some of the outfits I have found immodest. Sadly, some Christian males agreed with me. So, I pose 2 thoughts from this. 1. Do the women of today have any idea what it means to be modest? And 2. Why don’t men say anything about it?
1st. I don’t think many of us have a clue what it means to be modest. I remember when I first graduated HS and wore a bikini to get my ex-boy friend’s attention. Immature? Yes. Immodest? Yes. Was he looking? Yes. Did he ever even respect me or did I ever demand it? No…
I didn’t understand respect. I guess we both thought that respect was not having sex until we were married, not seeing each other naked, that sort of thing, but it’s not. Sooner that I would have liked, about 3-4 months after this incident, I met the man God had planned for me to marry. The first night we met we stayed up talking, and I told him that I thought bikinis were immodest because of my experience. He agreed. He never, at any point, ever hesitated to tell me I needed to cover up more or that something else was wrong (shirt too thin, ect.). It wasn’t just that he didn’t want other guys to look, but HE didn’t want to look in that way. That is true respect. So in-short, most women don’t know what it means to have respect or be modest. Other women can stand up there and tell us, but it doesn’t mean anything. I had heard it all. It wasn’t until a man told me that my clothing was problematic before I figured it out how to dress modestly.
Dressing modestly is a responsibility we have as women. Does any woman really want her body to be used for a sin of thought? (Sadly, some do, but no female should). I guess my prayer for all women is that they can find someone who truly treats them with respect.
2. Why don’t men correct us or confront us?
I still haven’t figured this one out. From my experience, the holy men I have known, in some way, will ask a woman to cover up when revealing too much. I think it is difficult, and I cry for our culture where the media throws sin in our face every time we turn on the T.V. Shows will take sex scenes as far as they can but still stay on T.V.

Dressing modestly includes covering parts of your body that would be easily seen in a sexual way.
In response to being naked and a man mentally disrespecting me, it is both of our faults because my action led this man into sin. (It’s only a sin if I realize that this could occur from my action.)
I heard a story once, about 2 priests walking together down the street. They turn the corner only to see a prostitute. The one says to the other, “look away!” and turns his head. His companion, however, looks, says a prayer for the woman, that she could know her true beauty and not reduce herself to an object. He was not tempted to lust; he saw who she really was. Now, both priests were correct in their own action, but they were each in a different place, spiritually.
I hope some of what I have written helps. I know you’re trying to find a practical, tangible, understandable answer, but I think most of that must come from experience. Maybe ask one of the holy men you know if your outfit (or another outfit you have worn in the past) is immodest and see how he responds.
May God bless you and guide you on your path to this answer and others!
 
Modesty is difficult to define because it is culturally based. what was modest in one era and place would not always be so in another! Modest clothing on a beach, for instance…would not be modest in a business office.

In many times and places, a low cut on a gown, showing a great deal of cleavage was , if not exactly modest, not IMmodest either… but showing your ankle was a clear sign of a fallen woman. In other eras the leg could be shown to the knee without a second glance, but the bosom was completely covered.

In general, to dress modestly one should consider the simple concept “what dress is considered, in this time and place, to be enticing? to be inviting of looks and attention in a sexual way?” and then avoid that at all costs!

for myself? modest clothing means pants that are not tight, or a skirt well below the knee, and better below calf length. a top that conceals my upper arms and doesnt show off my cleavage. i usually wear my hair in braids or up.

when i get seriously modest i wear high necklines, long skirts or pants, and cover my hair or at LEAST wear my hair up.

If you follow Jewish law on modest dress for women, the upper arm (including the elbow) the upper leg(including the knee) and the chest below the neckbone/shoulder girdle must be covered, and the leg muct be covered in such a way as to obscure the outlines of the leg… (loose pants or skirt) , plus the hair… bearing in mind i am not Jewish but have Jewish friends.

for some more discussion on hair coverings that look nice i suggest www.tznius.com where they sell modest clothing and give instructions on hair scarves
 
Let’s not make it a men vs women issue.

Every person has the reponsibility not to tempt others. Tempting others may be done intentionally or by not giving a damn. Both ways are wrong. Tempting is not just about sharing in the blame of the one who gives in to temptation. Tempting is a very own fault because the act of tempting is wrong. Men are just as capable of tempting women as the other way round. Men have to watch it too.

Both women and men need to be modest not only because the other gender is weak (from which it comes both genders are weak) but because we need to be holy. If we want to tempt others and sexy it up, it’s not compatible with being holy. Regardless of our gender.

As for porn, it would exist neither without audience nor without actors. Apart from porn exist explicit romance novels and stuff that appears in popular magazines for women. While not as vulgar as men’s magazines, it’s not exactly holy, either. I would say both genders are equally capable of objectifying the other these days.

This pains me because I was a recipient of a traditional Polish upbringing, which has a fixation on the point of chivalry and which seems to place women somewhere halfway between men and angels. All the more pity if you look around. I don’t know which gender is worse. Possibly men, but women aren’t generally in a great shape spiritually these days. No Arwen, no Eowyn, sorry. You’ve got to respect them all the more, so that at least maybe some learn something, and if only in defiance, but you’ve got to realise the difference at some point. Today’s sexuality and spirituality of love are not messed up exclusively because of men’s sex drive. Feels bad saying, feels bad hearing, but illusions don’t make food or shelter.
 
Modesty as most have said, is important to help assist each other not to get all “worked up” sexually and have thoughts of lust. But its’ also a good way to show respect for yourself, by dressing like a skank you’re essentially downgrading yoruself from a person with thoughts, feelings and intelligence to a piece of meat to be drooled over.

Plus, its also important to protect yoruself from over exposure to the sun. When I see a woman dressed so sparsely I don’t say “what a strumpet” I say “you should cover up more, you could get skin cancer with that level of exposure!”
 
I happen to agree with the poster that modesty is best exemplified by the 1950’s dress style. Modesty can also be in the way you present yourself too. I try to show my girls (I have four) to dress the way they want to be respected. I have a preteen. I encourage her to dress well, but respectful not only to her but to others. Like another poster said, it is the person who looks at another person and lusts after them is the person who sins. However in the way you dress you can also lead that person to sin, but you can only do so much. I mean some people may lust after someone we may say is dress modest.

Personally I think the human body is GODS GREATES WORKS! I think a human body is beautiful. I mean I only see my husbands body and sexually attractive, but I also see others as ARTISTICALY BEAUTIFUL within reason. I love the statues of the artists of the past. I have seen photography of man and woman entwined really beautiful. I am an artist and i dont take GODS wonderful works for granted, I also appreciate them not turn them into trash. A lot of artists go to far with the human body…and it gives us artists a bad name.

There is a difference between taking notice of ones beauty and taking it to far.
 
vera_dicere said:
Modesty as most have said, is important to help assist each other not to get all “worked up” sexually and have thoughts of lust. But its’ also a good way to show respect for yourself, by dressing like a skank you’re essentially downgrading yoruself from a person with thoughts, feelings and intelligence to a piece of meat to be drooled over.

Plus, its also important to protect yoruself from over exposure to the sun. When I see a woman dressed so sparsely I don’t say “what a strumpet” I say “you should cover up more, you could get skin cancer with that level of exposure!”
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And don’t forget that it’s not just exposing oneself to degradation. Tempting others is a sin too. By tempting I mean actively tempting, which is an act, not a failure in covering up. Some of modern immodest dress is merely a failure in being modest, but some of it is a choice to tempt others. These are two different things. In so far as a person chooses to tempt the other gender, he cannot complain about being forced to go to extremes to protect the other gender. Intent is not the same as negligence. Recklessness is a different thing, too. Complaining that we are forced to protect the other gender from its own eyes or ears or tactile sensors or whatever, only works when we are not trying to tempt it or recklessly ignoring the fact that we are tempting it in effect.

In my view, much of the modern clothing for men is simply designed to be sexy, which the wearers are unlikely to be unaware of, but more likely to downplay it and rely on the fact that men are responsible for their eyes. Correct. Men are responsible for their eyes, but women are responsible for their clothing choices. Similarly, women are also responsible for their eyes no less than women are and therefore a woman oggling a man is as bad as a man oggling a woman, and men are also similarly responsible for what they wear. Or if they choose to walk around shirtless or something like that. Both the wearer and the looker are responsible regardless of gender and there’s no escaping blame by putting it on the other person.
 
One of the best explanations of modest dress I have ever heard came from a priest talking to a group of high school girls. He told them that dressing modestly means dressing in a way that makes your boyfriend look you in the eye.

Bev
 
Perhaps these Scriptures could apply here, not just to food: 1 Cor 8:9,12-13
But take care lest this liberrty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak…And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
 
missp said:
One of the best explanations of modest dress I have ever heard came from a priest talking to a group of high school girls. He told them that dressing modestly means dressing in a way that makes your boyfriend look you in the eye.

Bev
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That is an excellent rule. 🙂
 
I’ve really questioned the idea of modesty. I guess because our culture is so immodest, it’s hard to have a good idea of what it even means. I think a lot of people assume that “modest” means looking like you just stepped off an Amish farm or something. This obviously isn’t the case. Wanting to look nice, and putting an outfit together nicely are not bad things. I think it’s fine for women (and men) to be interested in fashion, and want to accentuate their beauty. It becomes a problem when a) the person falls into vanity, or b) the clothes are obviously intended to cause another person to sin.

I wish there were better role-model for “fashionable” modesty, and honest people to teach boys and girls about modesty and purity of thought. My mother, bless her, just never told me exactly what men think about when they see a woman dressed in a particular way. Of course, really obviously immodest clothes caused sexual thoughts, but I never knew about the more subtle things (knees, shoulders, backs, etc). I was horrified and very angry when I learned that men have so many sexual thoughts (I still don’t quite understand it, but I’m working on it). My father isn’t a Christian, so he was no help to me growing up in this regard.
Boys should be taught in an open and honest manner about sexual thoughts and what to do in situations where they can’t avoid meeting a woman dressed inappropriately, and how to treat women with respect in general. Girls should be gently taught the truth about the male mind, so that they can be kind and respect the way God made men, and not tempt them or be enraged by their natural behavior. Girls should also be taught how to look nice but be modest at the same time, so that they don’t feel left out or ostracized because of their clothing choices.

I also hope there is some enterprising person out there who can start a nice-but-modest clothing line that doesn’t cost a fortune. There are a lot of websites now that sell clothes, but I’m a student so I just can’t afford to pay $60 for a jacket or $70 for a dress.
 
If it’s knees, backs and the like, it’s male mind, but if it’s something less oblivious, like a lot of cleavage or clinginess, then it’s more about the why of wearing it. There exists also a female mind that’s susceptible to some kind of stimuli (that I won’t name here because I don’t want to give young men ideas) and it’s not like women are immune to visual stimuli, either, so it’s not just poor clueless women and poor animalistic men. It’s more two-sided than people think.
 
I’ve heard it put that modesty means a woman takes what is beautiful about womanhood and uses it to teach man about her dignity. She should dress in a way that encourages men to see her dignity as a precious daughter of God not as an object of pleasure. Good women don’t cover themselves up because their bodies are “bad” but because their bodies are so very GOOD they don’t want their bodies to used for lust. Think of other things we veil- the Eucharist in the tabernacle, for instance. We veil what is sacred and since our bodies are sacred we should properly veil them. This doesn’t mean women need to run around in potato sacks, but we should tastefully choose our clothing.

The body makes visible a fundamental truth of our faith. It points us towards God. Sexual difference is meant to point us to communion, that free, total, faithful, and fruitful gift of self to another and reception of the other’s self-gift. By mutual self-giving a “common union” is formed. Sexual difference points us to our call to communion with others (obviously how that is lived depends on the relationship and one’s vocation) and it points us to the fact that we are called to be in commuion with God! The “one flesh union” points to the marriage of Christ with His Church (see Ephesians 5). The Trinity can also be understood as a commuion of Persons, the mutual self-gift of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is how we can say as John does, “God is Love”. (Please be clear that the Trinitarian union and our union with the Trinity in Heaven is not sexual, but our sexuality is a reflection of the Trinity). Sexuality is utterly important and good because it is meant to point us to God!

Both men and women are to blame for problems with immodesty and impurity. From what I understand, men are usually more prone to “looking lustfully” (but women can do it too). There IS a fault on the part of men who look lustfully. They should avert their eyes (or thoughts) to avoid occasions of sin. But they should also undergo, by the power of Christ, a deep transformation so that even in a naked woman they see her dignity as a person and do not look with lust. Men who are married aren’t supposed to lust after their wives. They are to see their wives with a pure heart, one that sees her as precious person and child of God to be loved, not sexual object to be used. As Jesus said, “Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.” We should see the image of God in each person. This purity of heart comes through Christ and His cross. We ladies don’t often realize what an utterly brutal battle this is for men, especially with temptations at every turn. Ladies, we need to help our brothers by dressing, speaking and acting modestly, by praying and doing penance for them, and teaching them as appropriate. Charity demands this of us.

We women also need the transforming power of Christ to dispel the lust in our hearts. Perhaps it is manifested in “looking lustfully” at men (and the above thoughts apply here), but it seems to me that many women allow themselves to be used by men because they think it will get them love. (Ladies, if you are being used as an object of lust, you are not really being loved. You can’t GET a man to love you, love is a gift he gives. Come to understand your own dignity and don’t settle for less than real love. Also don’t settle for giving him less that real love either.) Perhaps women dress immodestly because they want attention, they want love, they have bought the lie that their worth is in their looks, or they are plain unaware of how they affect others around them and how they cue others to view them. While porn would not exist without men buying it, it also wouldn’t exist if women wouldn’t pose for such pictures in the first place. Women who dress modestly and know and live their dignity, teach men about their infinite worth in the eyes of God. Gentlemen, please help us women out by affirming our dignity by how you treat us (whether we act like we deserve it or not), by your prayers and sacrifice, and by your charity in pointing out to us how we can do better.

Let us not forget that Satan is our enemy in this battle and he wants to keep us from God. Since sexuality is meant to point us to God, Satan strike here with great force. Lord Jesus help us!

I highly recommend John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” or if that is a little much for beginners, try one of Christopher West’s books or tapes on the “Theology of the Body.” You can go to www.tobinstitute.com to find more.🙂
 
I wonder if some here aren’t being a little too strict about what constitutes “modest”. Or perhaps modesty is less practiced in hotter regions of the world.

Most girls at my college, for example, dress quite modestly but not frumpy. Maybe it’s the cold in this region. Granted, I never look below the waist really (I’ve never been that kind of guy…), but most of what I see is very much decent.
 
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