Questions on Purgatory

[CarlosBarrera]

I am currently writing an essay and would like it if someone could point me in the right direction to actual Church documents regarding the following questions:

1. What does the Church say about “living Purgatory on earth”? (Something I read)
2. Is Purgatory a place or a state?

 

[BVMFatima]

to answer the second question, Purgatory is a Process as i was told

 

[Dubay]

Not explicit like heaven and hell in the bible. Based upon tradition.

 

[bzkoss236]

Catholic Answers tract on Purgatory

 

[CarlosBarrera]

Catholic Answers tract on Purgatory

Thank you!

 

[Vouthon]

Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510) explained purgatory better than any other saint or theologian. Purgatory is a state of being and it can be experienced in this life or after death. I recommend her “Treatise on Purgatory”.

Saint Catherine experienced purgatory in this life, as explained at the start of the Treatise by one of her disciples:

"…This holy soul, while still in the flesh, was placed in the purgatory of the burning love of God, in whose flames she was purified from every stain, so that when she passed from this life she might be ready to enter the presence of God, her most sweet love.

By means of that flame of love she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.

And as in the purgatory of that divine flame she was united with the divine love and satisfied with all that was accomplished in her, she was enabled to comprehend the state of the souls in purgatory…"

It can be read in full here:

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/

Its really good

Pope Benedict XVI devoted one of his General Audience addresses to Saint Catherine and her teaching on purgatory, which is totally unsurpassed in all church history. Here is the link to it on the Vatican website:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html

 

[lemerjoe]

Suffering Souls- sufferingsouls.com/

Helpers of the Holy Souls- helpersoftheholysouls.com/

The Roots of Purgatory- catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia Purgatory Entry- newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Holy Souls Sodality- prayforsouls.org/

Divine Mercy Purgatory Series:
Part 1: Proof of Purgatory? Look No Further- thedivinemercy.org/news/story…D=3723&PLID=75
Part 2: The Mystery of Purgatory- thedivinemercy.org/news/story…D=3729&PLID=75
Part 3: Are the Fires of Purgatory Really Fires?- thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3734
Part 4: What’s So Painful About Purgatory?- thedivinemercy.org/news/story…D=3738&PLID=75

About Catholics Articles:
Explaining Purgatory- aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/explaining_purgatory/
Where is Purgatory in the Bible?- aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/where_purgatory_bible/

 

[Gorgias]

Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510) explained purgatory better than any other saint or theologian. Purgatory is a state of being and it can be experienced in this life or after death. I recommend her “Treatise on Purgatory”.

NB: This falls under the category of ‘mystic experience’ or ‘personal revelation’. In other words, her experiences aren’t – properly considered – theological expressions of the magisterium. That is, what she says may or may not be consistant with what the Church teaches; her assertions, then, are hers and hers alone. You are free to accept or reject them – there’s no requirement to hold to them as Church teaching that binds Catholics.

If you use these, Carlos, then you might consider framing up her statements as one example of what Catholics might think about purgatory; but you shouldn’t present them as authoritative Church teaching.

Edited to add:

From the link that Vouthon provided to Benedict’s talk, we find the following:

It is important to note that Catherine, in her mystical experience, never received specific revelations on purgatory or on the souls being purified there.

in their experience of union with God, Saints … are of help to theologians themselves in their commitment to …attain a really deeper knowledge of the mysteries of faith, for example, of what purgatory is.

In other words, the mystical experiences of the saints aren’t theological assertions, but may be useful in development of theological theories…

 

[pablope]

I am currently writing an essay and would like it if someone could point me in the right direction to actual Church documents regarding the following questions:

1. What does the Church say about “living Purgatory on earth”? (Something I read)
2. Is Purgatory a place or a state?

I think you will find a lot of answers here…by Scott Hanh…Purgatory…Holy Fire…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

 

[Tinaphpc]

Not explicit like heaven and hell in the bible.

 

[Vouthon]

NB: This falls under the category of ‘mystic experience’ or ‘personal revelation’. In other words, her experiences aren’t – properly considered – theological expressions of the magisterium. That is, what she says may or may not be consistant with what the Church teaches; her assertions, then, are hers and hers alone. You are free to accept or reject them – there’s no requirement to hold to them as Church teaching that binds Catholics.

If you use these, Carlos, then you might consider framing up her statements as one example of what Catholics might think about purgatory; but you shouldn’t present them as authoritative Church teaching.

Edited to add:

From the link that Vouthon provided to Benedict’s talk, we find the following:

In other words, the mystical experiences of the saints aren’t theological assertions, but may be useful in development of theological theories…

Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut!

Catherine never received any special revelations:

In her mystical experiences, Catherine never received specific revelations on Purgatory or on the souls being purified there. She did not see Purgatory as a place of transit in the depths of the earth: it is not an exterior fire, but an interior fire. She did not use the hereafter as a basis to recount the torments of purgatory and then show the way to purification and conversion; rather, she began from the interior experience of man on his journey towards eternity.

Benedict says this also in that talk, that she received no specific revelations.

The Church has actually adopted her teaching that purgatory is a state, which is why I am comfortable to praise her so highly. I do not recall saying that her teaching are the Magisterium but simply that they are unsurpassed in church history, which all analysts and experts I have read agree on. In 1999 Pope John Paul II declared that the term Purgatory does not indicate a place, but “a condition of existence”. And she is considered to be a theologian as well as a mystic:

Saint Catherine of Genoa, known as the “theologian of Purgatory,” experienced the fires of Purgatory while still alive.

And the SCM dictionaty of Christian spirituality says of her:

this being the foundation of Catherine’s reputation as mystic and theologian.

A better translation of this part of the Pope’s speech goes:

In their experience of union with God, saints achieve so profound an ‘understanding’ of the divine mysteries, in which love and knowledge almost become one, that they can even help theologians in their studies

He is saying that through the lives and experiences of defied saints, we have such a fusion of human knowledge with divine understanding, that mystical experiences can even pass into theolgical discourse and influence our understanding of the mysteries of faith.

Vatican II actually explained that it is in this manner that the Church develops “doctrine” and understanding of its teachings:

"The Tradition," we are told," that comes from the Apostles makes progress in the Church. There is growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers. It comes from intimate sense of the spiritual truths which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who received, along with the right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth." (Dei verbum, no. 8).

In other words, through direct mystical experience of “believers” (saints) and the teaching of the episcopate (magisterium).

So I personally think that her writings are significant and dare I say it again in my opinion the present the most developed understanding of purgatory.

I am well aware of the reality of personal revelation and its subjectivity, however Catherine was also a theologian who commented on and interpreted her own experiences much like Saint Teresa and John of the Cross also did.

The Magisterium officially teaches that heaven, hell and purgatory are states of being and not places.

 

[Vouthon]

Fr Hardon explained this once in greater depth in his essay on “The development of Doctrine”:

"…There are few aspects of Catholic education that are more important than what we have come to call “development of doctrine,” I would go so far as to affirm that failure to take account of this fact is near the root cause of the widespread confusion in catechetics and evangelization in our day.

My plan here is to open the door to a treasure of religious wisdom. It was the Second Vatican Council which unlocked that door in its Constitution on divine revelation, Dei verbum (“The Word of God”).

…the prayerful contemplation of the mysteries at any given period of the Church’s history is a major source of new insights that enrich the Church’s treasury of divine wisdom. The meditation of saints like Margaret Mary and Catherine of Siena, like John of the Cross and Therese of Lisieux has brought new understanding to the meaning of revealed truth.

A short quotation from each of these mystics will give us a savor of their contribution to the Church’s deeper understanding of God and his ways…Such samples of mystical wisdom are not, as we know, the effusions of poetry but insights into divine truth that the Church has used to clarify and deepen our penetration into the mystery of God…

study of God’s revelation is the second way the Church advances in her hold on revealed truth. That is why, and the main reason why, the Church needs her theologians.

They are the specialists whose talent in religious matters, spent in probing the mysteries of Christianity, has always been encouraged by the Church.

Where would we be by now, as Catholics, in competition with the genius of agnostics and critics of the faith, except for men like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, Anselm and Bellarmine, and in our day, scholars like Vermeersch in moral theology, Bea in Scripture, Capello in Canon Law, and Scheeben in dogma?..

Experience we know is a unique teacher. This is even more true in the order of grace and sacred doctrine than it is in the order of nature and of worldly wisdom.

Take a few examples. How greatly the Church has profited from the experience of St. Agnes the Virgin Martyr, of St. Benedict the Father of Christian Monasticism, of St. Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Ignatius, and Thomas More…"

therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_039.htm

As a mystic and a theologian, Saint Catherine occupies an important place in Church history with respect to renewed insights into the revealed truth of “purgatory” - as her title goes, “the theologian of purgatory”.

 

[Vouthon]

NB: This falls under the category of ‘mystic experience’ or ‘personal revelation’. In other words, her experiences aren’t – properly considered – theological expressions of the magisterium. That is, what she says may or may not be consistant with what the Church teaches; her assertions, then, are hers and hers alone. You are free to accept or reject them – there’s no requirement to hold to them as Church teaching that binds Catholics.

While you are correct about her teaching not being binding (although the subsequent magisterial acceptance of much of her doctrine is), I’m uncomfortable with the assertion that “she may or may not be consistent with what the Church teaches”.

Benedict XIV, tells us, in his work on the Beatification and Canonization of Saints, that the works of St Catherine of Genoa were examined and approved by the theologians of Paris: intending, no doubt, the examination by the Sorbonne in 1666, by direction of the Archbishop of Paris; and again by the Sacred congregation in the cause of her canonization. In fact Catherine’s writings were examined by the Holy Office and pronounced to contain doctrine that would be enough, in itself, to prove her sanctity. She was canonised on the basis of her writings* The Holy Office and her bull of canonization declared that there was nothing contrary to faith in her writings.

If the Church declares nothing contrary to faith, then how can one suggest that doctrines contained in her writing might not be consistent with the faith…?

• Correction (typo): her cause was opened on the basis of her writings alone

 

[Gorgias]

I do not recall saying that her teaching are the Magisterium

You didn’t; but Carlos asked for the teaching of the Church. Your reply, while reasonable, was not from a magisterial source. I was just trying to point that out explicitly.

Vouthon:

While you are correct about her teaching not being binding (although the subsequent magisterial acceptance of much of her doctrine is), I’m uncomfortable with the assertion that “she may or may not be consistent with what the Church teaches”.

If the Church declares nothing contrary to faith, then how can one suggest that doctrines contained in her writing might not be consistent with the faith…?

Calm down, now. I’m not trying to attack your favorite person in Church history. I’m still just working on the theme that personal revelations may or may not be consistant with Church teachings; when the Church makes a declaration of “nothing contrary”, then we know that the private revelation correlates well with official teachings. Again, just trying to be cautious for the sake of whatever environment (I guess I assumed it was ‘academic’) that Carlos is writing in. It’s less a statement about Catherine and more a statement about mystics in general…

 

[Vouthon]

You didn’t; but Carlos asked for the teaching of the Church. Your reply, while reasonable, was not from a magisterial source. I was just trying to point that out explicitly.

Calm down, now. I’m not trying to attack your favorite person in Church history. I’m still just working on the theme that personal revelations may or may not be consistant with Church teachings; when the Church makes a declaration of “nothing contrary”, then we know that the private revelation correlates well with official teachings. Again, just trying to be cautious for the sake of whatever environment (I guess I assumed it was ‘academic’) that Carlos is writing in. It’s less a statement about Catherine and more a statement about mystics in general…

Apologies, If I seemed a little worked up brother/sister lol

I am very much defensive of the mysticism of our Church both Eastern and Western, as well as its contribution to the development of doctrine.

 

[Vouthon]

when the Church makes a declaration of “nothing contrary”, then we know that the private revelation correlates well with official teachings…

It should be noted in view of this that:

Approved private revelations derive from two sources. First, there is the mysticism of the Servants of God who have been proposed for canonization. When the diocese which initiated the Cause has concluded its investigation and forwarded the documentation to Rome, the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints undertakes its own study of the person’s life. If the Congregation determines that he or she lived a life of heroic virtue this decision necessarily includes the judgment that the writings, including any mystical ones, are not contrary to faith and morals. If the Holy Father concurs the person is declared Venerable. The later canonization of the person (generally considered an act of papal infallibility), only heightens the credibility of the person’s writings and the pious regard Catholics should have for them, according to the standard given by Benedict XIV.

That’s from EWTN: ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm

If a person is simply declared Venerable, then his/her mystical doctrines (if he/she has any) are by default recognised as having nothing contrary to the faith. Beatification and canonization only heightens this credibility.

Nonetheless, many prominent mystics have not been declared “Venerable” (some for obvious reasons such as annonymous works of Orthodox mysticism such as the Cloud of Unknowing). This does not mean that there writings are not Orthodox and in line with Church teaching. The “Imitation of Christ” by Saint Thomas A Kempis, is the most famous and beloved of all mystical texts. Yet A Kempis was never declared venerable. Even Saint Ignatius of Loyola, Teresa of Avila and numerous popes have declared it their favourite book. It is thus also in line with Church teaching, given this recognition of popular acceptance of their writings by the church hierarchy, theologians and the sensus fidem of the faithful.

Another is Julian of Norwich, an important Orthodox mystic who is actually quoted as an authority in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, yet was never declared venerable or beatified. Benedict XVI also spoke of her in one of his General Audience addresses: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20101201_en.html

 

[domNoah]

I am currently writing an essay and would like it if someone could point me in the right direction to actual Church documents regarding the following questions:

1. What does the Church say about “living Purgatory on earth”? (Something I read)
2. Is Purgatory a place or a state?

1. Purgatory on earth refers to the purgative state. This is where a soul through prayer, penance, good works and mortification is cleansing itself of vices to become perfected. Most people never get beyond the purgative state and thus if they die in it they go to purgatory.
2. Purgatory is a place.

 

[SusiQ217]

I consider myself a very strong Catholic, but I do not believe in purgatory. I believe that after the moment of death, we experience an intense sense of all that we have done in life to affect others, both bad and good, and feel others’ joy and pain like we could not in life. This pure, raw feeling of others’ sorrows and joys will prepare us for eternity with God in heaven.

 

[Gorgias]

I consider myself a very strong Catholic, but I do not believe in purgatory. I believe that after the moment of death, we experience an intense sense of all that we have done in life to affect others, both bad and good, and feel others’ joy and pain like we could not in life. This pure, raw feeling of others’ sorrows and joys will prepare us for eternity with God in heaven.

Susie Q,

So, what you’re saying is that, when we die, we’re not fully prepared for eternity in heaven, right?

And, you’re saying that, once we die, something happens that prepares us for heaven?

And, after that experience, we’re now prepared for heaven?

Congratulations… you believe in the doctrine of ‘purgatory’.

(What you have problems with might be better described as how purgatory happens, or exactly what it is that is experienced. On this side of heaven, we don’t really know what that is. So you’re OK on that count…)

 

[cathy14]

Some of the best explanations I have ever read on Purgatory, where the idea came from (BTW it IS Biblical), why and how we as Catholics believe in Purgatory, is from Catholics United For the Faith “Lay Witness” magazine! Their web sight is cuf.org. Here is the actual page of one article you can find on their sight about Purgatory cuf.org/LayWitness/online_view.asp?lwID=753 Good luck in your search for the Truth!