Questions on the claims of Lutherans

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Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
 
Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
Extremely broad subject.
Addressing the sacraments. Yes, all seven have scriptural support, and Lutherans practice all seven. Lutheranism holds a definition of sacrament as being,
  1. instituted by Christ Himself
  2. has a promise of grace attached to it, and
  3. has a physical element (water in Baptism, bread and wine in the Eucharist)
None of this denies the importance of the others. Lutherans have confession/Holy Absolution (many lutherans, including myself, consider this a sacrament. other lutherans consider it connected to Baptism), we confirm, we marry - often in connection to a celebration of the mass, we ordain our pastors, and we anoint the sick.
The numbering of the sacraments is not a huge issue for us.

As the for papacy being anti-Christ, it is our belief that the claims of universal jurisdiction, etc. are, according to scripture and the teachings of the early Church, wrong. That is all it means. The problem is that the term ā€œanti-Christā€ has taken on meanings not intended by the reformers. In short, we believe that the teaching of the Catholic Church that the pope has supremacy is heterodox.

Before I mention faith alone, it might help to know what you think it means, as that may be why you can’t find it.

Jon
 
Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
You should read the question just above you on the Forum which starts off
John C Wright on how he came to be Catholic, he also takes in some of the Lutheran doctrine.
 
You should read the question just above you on the Forum which starts off
John C Wright on how he came to be Catholic, he also takes in some of the Lutheran doctrine.
I’m sure it’s a great defense of Catholic teaching, but I think the OP is asking for Lutheran defense of our teaching.

Then again, here is an interesting Catholic view of the Lutheran view of faith alone.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

Jon
 
Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
You need to be very careful here. The thread topic ā€œHow can Lutherans claim they have the truthā€ implies that they do not have the truth. In reality they have much truth, but from the Catholic perspective, they are missing the fullness of truth. Also, I believe that they adhere to all seven sacraments, though I am not sure about ā€œHoly Ordersā€ as there are no Lutheran priests.

Yes, we have our differences, but I would suggest that you have a lot to learn. Listen to JonC and others. They will give you an honest rendering of Lutheran beliefs. It’s not as simple as some would like to make it, including the ā€œfaith aloneā€ issue which others have adapted and taken to extremes.
 
Extremely broad subject.
Addressing the sacraments. Yes, all seven have scriptural support, and Lutherans practice all seven. Lutheranism holds a definition of sacrament as being,
  1. instituted by Christ Himself
  2. has a promise of grace attached to it, and
  3. has a physical element (water in Baptism, bread and wine in the Eucharist)
None of this denies the importance of the others. Lutherans have confession/Holy Absolution (many lutherans, including myself, consider this a sacrament. other lutherans consider it connected to Baptism), we confirm, we marry - often in connection to a celebration of the mass, we ordain our pastors, and we anoint the sick.
The numbering of the sacraments is not a huge issue for us.

As the for papacy being anti-Christ, it is our belief that the claims of universal jurisdiction, etc. are, according to scripture and the teachings of the early Church, wrong. That is all it means. The problem is that the term ā€œanti-Christā€ has taken on meanings not intended by the reformers. In short, we believe that the teaching of the Catholic Church that the pope has supremacy is heterodox.

Before I mention faith alone, it might help to know what you think it means, as that may be why you can’t find it.

Jon
A very good response by a Lutheran !! Thanks for the clarification .
 
The spirit of anti-Christ denies the divinity of Christ. I do not see how the papacy could be characterized as anti-Christ.
 
The spirit of anti-Christ denies the divinity of Christ. I do not see how the papacy could be characterized as anti-Christ.
You need to keep in mind when this was written and the meaning ascribed to the term at that point in time. This reminds me very much of the Catholic statement that ā€œThere is no salvation outside of the Catholic Churchā€. At first glance it seems to be a very offensive, even arrogant statement if one is a non-Catholic Christian. That all changes when one takes the time to read what the Church really means by that statement.
 
The spirit of anti-Christ denies the divinity of Christ. I do not see how the papacy could be characterized as anti-Christ.
No. There is no denial of the divinity of Christ involved here. The charge was that the papacy was set up in opposition to the teaching of Christ. Specifically, and from the confessions, these three:
1] The Roman Pontiff claims for himself [in the first place] that by divine right he is [supreme] above all bishops and pastors [in all Christendom].
2] Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.].
3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.
4] These three articles we hold to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church…
Now, number 2 is moot, which also indicates that even the charge is subject to change.

Jon
 
Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
Martin Luther added ā€œaloneā€ when he translated the bible from Latin to German, and anyone who doesn’t believe this should look into it as he openly admits that he did so.
 
No. There is no denial of the divinity of Christ involved here. The charge was that the papacy was set up in opposition to the teaching of Christ. Specifically, and from the confessions, these three:

Now, number 2 is moot, which also indicates that even the charge is subject to change.

Jon
Jon…with regards to #3;

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

If you think the pope should not be the vicar of Christ…then who do you think it should be?

Who do you think should be the alternative? Do you even think there should be a vicar of Christ here on earth?

And which serves Christianity better here on earth…that there be on vicar? several vicars? or none at all?
 
Martin Luther added ā€œaloneā€ when he translated the bible from Latin to German, and anyone who doesn’t believe this should look into it as he openly admits that he did so.
Luthers was not ā€˜alone’ in this. From beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html
We learn that the following agreed with Luther in that it is ā€œfaith aloneā€

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): ā€œsola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,ā€ through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): ā€œsolam justificatur per fidem,ā€ is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): ā€œNon est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legisā€ (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): ā€œreputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiamā€; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): ā€œsolum ex fide Christiā€ [Opera 20.437, b41]).

and from the same source:

Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), ā€œallein durch den glaubenā€ and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say ā€œper sola fede.ā€
 
Very easily.

As I have come to learn, the MAIN separation is AUTHORITY. The Catholic Church has it’s Doctrine on Apostolic Succession, the Lutherans have theirs, and our views on how the Reformation has affected the validity of Sacraments, ordinations, etc… differ accordingly.

Truth is a broad statement.

Christ is Risen, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, there is but ONE God, the 10 Commandments, etc… All of it TRUTH. All of it shared between Lutherans and Catholics. That was just five examples. There are hundreds of others.

I have spent the last couple of weeks involved in a real donnybrook about Sola Fide in another thread, and I have NO desire to get into that. I’m tired…

But if Catholic/Lutheran debate is your thing, then I think it begins and ends with Papal Authority. After all; why make this more complicated than it has to be?

As a Latin Catholic of the Roman Rite, I believe, affirm, and attest that the Catholic Church has the 100% Truth (near as that can be determined). If I did not believe so, I would not be Catholic. You can be sure of that.

Does that mean other Christian believers have NO TRUTH AT ALL??? No way Jose’. To one degree or another they all have some Truth. Of course, some more than others…

I advise in THIS case, discussion and dialogue; not debate.
 
Luthers was not ā€˜alone’ in thisā€¦ā€
James 2

Faith without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, ā€œGo in peace, be warmed and filled,ā€ without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, ā€œYou have faith and I have works.ā€ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, ā€œAbraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousnessā€; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and **not by faith alone. **25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

😃

I personally really enjoy how Clement of Rome goes into this:

1 Clement

CHAPTER 32 – WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ā€œYour seed shall be as the stars of heaven.ā€ All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

CHAPTER 33 – BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immoveable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all, with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him – the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: ā€œLet us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them.ā€ Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, ā€œIncrease and multiply.ā€ We see, then, how all righteous men have been adorned with good works, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.

CHAPTER 34 – GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.

The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: ā€œBehold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work.ā€ He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this, that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will. Let us consider the whole multitude of His angels, how they stand ever ready to minister to His will. For the Scripture says, ā€œTen thousand times ten thousand stood around Him, and thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and cried, Holy, holy, holy, the Lord of Sabaoth; the whole creation is full of His glory.ā€ And let us therefore, conscientiously gathering together in harmony, cry to Him earnestly, as with one mouth, that we may be made partakers of His great and glorious promises. For [the Scripture] says, ā€œEye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which He has prepared for those who wait for Him.ā€
 
Jon…with regards to #3;

3] And thirdly, he says that to believe this is necessary for salvation. And for these reasons the Roman bishop calls himself [and boasts that he is] the vicar of Christ on earth.

If you think the pope should not be the vicar of Christ…then who do you think it should be?

Who do you think should be the alternative? Do you even think there should be a vicar of Christ here on earth?

And which serves Christianity better here on earth…that there be on vicar? several vicars? or none at all?
As a Lutheran, Vicar of Christ doesn’t ā€œworkā€ for me. I see the Bishop of Rome, along with the other patriarchs as equals. That’s what the early Church tells us in Nicea. The Bishop of Rome, while equal to the others, holds a special primacy of honor within the Church.

Jon
 
Hello. šŸ™‚ I was recently reading about the Missouri-Synod and the WELS Lutheran denominations, and I saw that they believe the Papacy is the anti-Christ. They claim that the Catholic Church has errors in its beliefs and that Protestantism is the Truth. But, where do they base these claims? Martin Luther claimed there are only two sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist, when in reality, all seven sacraments are supported biblically. Where do they base their belief in ā€œfaith alone?ā€ I cannot find it in the Bible.

God bless you for answering my question. :blessyou:
What I have discovered from LCMS and WELS, but more from LCMS, is that although they might say they are Sola Scriptura, they are really not. I’ve found that the LCMS is more Prima Scriptura, while WELS is more of a Sola Scriptura in practice.

But that is just my fallible opinion, 🤷
 
Very easily.

As I have come to learn, the MAIN separation is AUTHORITY. The Catholic Church has it’s Doctrine on Apostolic Succession, the Lutherans have theirs, and our views on how the Reformation has affected the validity of Sacraments, ordinations, etc… differ accordingly.

Truth is a broad statement.

Christ is Risen, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, there is but ONE God, the 10 Commandments, etc… All of it TRUTH. All of it shared between Lutherans and Catholics. That was just five examples. There are hundreds of others.

I have spent the last couple of weeks involved in a real donnybrook about Sola Fide in another thread, and I have NO desire to get into that. I’m tired…

But if Catholic/Lutheran debate is your thing, then I think it begins and ends with Papal Authority. After all; why make this more complicated than it has to be?

As a Latin Catholic of the Roman Rite, I believe, affirm, and attest that the Catholic Church has the 100% Truth (near as that can be determined). If I did not believe so, I would not be Catholic. You can be sure of that.

Does that mean other Christian believers have NO TRUTH AT ALL??? No way Jose’. To one degree or another they all have some Truth. Of course, some more than others…

I advise in THIS case, discussion and dialogue; not debate.
A great post, my friend. šŸ‘

Jon
 
Very easily.

As I have come to learn, the MAIN separation is AUTHORITY. The Catholic Church has it’s Doctrine on Apostolic Succession, the Lutherans have theirs, and our views on how the Reformation has affected the validity of Sacraments, ordinations, etc… differ accordingly.

Truth is a broad statement.

Christ is Risen, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, there is but ONE God, the 10 Commandments, etc… All of it TRUTH. All of it shared between Lutherans and Catholics. That was just five examples. There are hundreds of others.

I have spent the last couple of weeks involved in a real donnybrook about Sola Fide in another thread, and I have NO desire to get into that. I’m tired…

But if Catholic/Lutheran debate is your thing, then I think it begins and ends with Papal Authority. After all; why make this more complicated than it has to be?

As a Latin Catholic of the Roman Rite, I believe, affirm, and attest that the Catholic Church has the 100% Truth (near as that can be determined). If I did not believe so, I would not be Catholic. You can be sure of that.

Does that mean other Christian believers have NO TRUTH AT ALL??? No way Jose’. To one degree or another they all have some Truth. Of course, some more than others…

I advise in THIS case, discussion and dialogue; not debate.
You rang? šŸ™‚
 
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