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ASimpleSinner
Guest
You have determined under what circumstances you will support schism?
Rethink that.
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Rethink that.
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Sure
Guest
And you are going into the seminary?
I am truly frightened. A seminarian should not be putting conditions on when he will and when he won’t remain Catholic.
I will pray for you.
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Tommy_Joe
Guest
As a “traditionalist”, I don’t mind telling y’all,…this discussion and others like it concern me to no end.
There are, right now, priests who have never known any mass but that in the “ordinary form”,…who are now in the process of learning the “extraordinary form” of the mass.
The fact that there appears to be not only many questions, but much confusion among parishioners with regard to what will and what will not be acceptable in the celebration of the extraordinary form,…makes me wonder how many of the newly educated priests will be confused, and end up attempting to “personalize” the extraordinary form of the mass.?
There are, right now, priests who have never known any mass but that in the “ordinary form”,…who are now in the process of learning the “extraordinary form” of the mass.
The fact that there appears to be not only many questions, but much confusion among parishioners with regard to what will and what will not be acceptable in the celebration of the extraordinary form,…makes me wonder how many of the newly educated priests will be confused, and end up attempting to “personalize” the extraordinary form of the mass.?
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Tommy_Joe
Guest
I think if we all look deep into our hearts, there is a point at which each and everyone of us would leave the Catholic Church.
Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church, ( I love it), is not perfect. God is perfect. The Church is not, if it was it would never have to change it’s mind.
(sorry for getting off topic)
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mystified
Guest
About 50 years ago, and before Vatican II, our old and very traditional Irish pastor celebrated an outdoor Mass (I was drafted to hold a huge umbrella over the altar). He did it facing the congregation. At Communion, he noted that the ground in front of the altar was large, rough gravel and told those who were to receive that, in this instance, kneeling would not be necessary.
He, however, did kneel according to the rubrics.
He, however, did kneel according to the rubrics.
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Seminarian_Matt
Guest
What is better: Supporting the SSPX (which I believe is not schismatic) or allowing the laity to touch the Holy Eucharist in direct violation of the words of countless saints including the Great Theologian St. Thomas Aquinas?
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
I see from your blog that you enter the seminary today.
The answer is that the Pope has authority over these matters, and has permitted communion in the hand and fairly routine use of Eucharistic ministers. The saints certainly deserve to be heard, but in the end are not the final authority.
However I suspect that by the time you are ordained the Pope will have backtracked. I think he already realises that falttering the laity leads ultimately to a lessening of respect for the Blessed Sacrament. The question is how to retreat from a bad practise without being unfair to those who have only followed instructions.
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holy_roamer
Guest
That’s easy. Call everyone, including the Protestants back into the Tridentine Mass. With two communion lines, of course, one with grape juice for the Calvinists.
Just joking
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
IF they were not schismatic - and we can open a new thread if you please - by all means go to them. Problem is, they are.
If liturgical sensibility were the sum total of our Faith, I would have been Russian Orthodox a decade ago.
So what is worse? Schism.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
It is not perfect in its practicioners - it is perfect in its Faith.
At one point would I decide to leave the Catholic Church? The point where I decide to go it alone and reject God’s gift to us. The point where I embrace mortal sin.
Please demonstrate where it has “Changed it’s mind.”
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Resurrexi
Guest
I am not entering this discussion on an extended level. Know that I am in seminary and I have never once attended a SSPX chapel.
But, last I checked, Cardinal Hoyos speaks for Rome on matters dealing with the SSPX. Unless the Pope corrects him, I trust his word.
renewamerica.us/columns/mershon/070410
This is old, and I did not read the entire article as I am about to go back to class, but this quote is true. The Cardinal did say repeatedly that the SSPX is (paraphrased) “not exactly a schism.”
I am a Catholic, so I am with Rome. I will not call the SSPX schismatic.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
<<1. Has anyone ever seen the EF celebrated versus populem? Will this be done in the future?>>
Properly, this is not called “versus populum” but “the basilican posture” because of its use in certain of the basilicas in Rome.
Properly, this is not called “versus populum” but “the basilican posture” because of its use in certain of the basilicas in Rome.
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Tommy_Joe
Guest
Right off the top of my pointed head; Limbo, Vatican II, “real time” in purgatory, paying for you sins with money.
My point is; there have been changes (some minor,…some major), and they will continue. So logically, (in my opinion); the “church” is not “perfect”. And therfore; right, wrong, or indifferent,…could, (and it has,), make changes that would drive some people away.
Each and everyone of us has our limits, if those limits are met,…well,…
Trust me, I would do my best, (and have), to convince anyone who was either thinking about, or has already, left the church,…to come back and give it another try.
So please don’t misunderstand me, (though I wouldn’t blame you, I’ve only got a high-school education here, and I believe you’ve been to seminary), I dearly love the Catholic Church,…but I also realize that it suffers being run by mere mortals who are not always filled with the Holy Spirit.
One of the reasons I do love the Church is because I have questioned it’s Doctrine and Catechism, and been more than satisfied with the answers.
I’m open to all sugestions and lessons.
(My apology to the original poster for getting WAY off topic)
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Jean_Anthony
Guest
Please start new threads to discuss off topic issues, or I will have to close the thread. Thank you.
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Chatter163
Guest
Any chance that such adminitions could sound a tad more congenial and a little less threatening? :ehh:
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otjm
Guest
It appears to have been in Europe in certain places, and occasionally elsewhere.
Interesting question; technology was nowhere near as advanced in 1969-1970 when the OF was issued. It was certainly possible for the altar boys to hear the words the priest spoke if the church was quiet; it is not as if no one could hear them. And to what extent the issue is critical is most certainly open to question.
I believe the 1962 Missal was a dialogue Mass; not that it was mandatory, but tht is what most did.
An interesting question for those churches in which there is no communion rail (which is,I would think, the majority); requiring all to kneel with nothing to stablize them may cause problems with some who do not get up and down easily. The normal way to receive was kneeling but I don’t believe it was an absolutely mandatory issue - someone who could not kneel was not refused, buth they certainly were not the norm.
Again, not something invisioned in the rubrics. Then, too, neither is Communion under both Species. I suspect that it will be a question to be answered.
Very interesting and thoughtful questions.
There are those who seem to be saying that they would not tolerate any changes to the 1962 Missal; but given the history of the Mass, and that changes have been made over time, it seems hardly realistic to say that no changes will come, or that no changes will be tolerated. As to the former - to com, I notcied in a commentary by Father Z that he mentions the possiblity - not necessity, but possiblity - that the current cycle of readings - 3 year and including the OT reading - could be used with the 1962 Missal. Assuming he knows what he is talking about, tht is already one change.
As to the latter - not tolerating any changes - those who take that position would seem to be putting form over substance. The substance of the Mass, the Sacred Readings and the Consecration and Communion, go back beyond the form of the Mass as we know it to the earliest Church, although the two were intially separated, as the readings were done in the synagogues. the form has been changed from time to time - the number of prayers, their sequence, the length or shortness of any given prayer. To hold this 1962 Missal as somehow inviolate as it is written now is to ignore the entire history of the Mass. That is not to suggest that changes will be either soon or dramatic, but any look at history would indicate that eventually, one would expect some things to change.
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holy_roamer
Guest
Please, I’m having a hard time getting used to these Pharisitical Posts with no Jesus. Try to remember that there are visiting Protestants present. I have been trying to answer these questions with real life experiences while attending Mass at a Tradition Catholic Latin Church that is celebrating there 18th Anniversary of the Latin Mass next month.
Okay, here is what I learned today, during the Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost. Shortly after the priest changes his garments, the congregation and the priest exchange passages in Latin. I estimate that at least 50 percent of the congregation was responding in Latin. Many also sing along with the Gregorian Chants.
Another thing that I noticed today, is that during the Sunday High Masses the young alter boys do not kiss the hand of the priest. However, during last Wednesday’s High Mass for Immaculate Heart of Mary an older alter boy kissed the hand of the priest quite a few times during the Mass. Always, when the priest took off or put on his Biretta, when ever the priest added smoke power, when ever the priest cleaned his hands, when ever the priest handled the wine and water jars, plus I probably missed a few.
So, there you have it, my observations with out paper and pencil or reference books. Whether or not the this church picked up some bad habits during their 18 years of doing the Latin Mass, well, I suppose so. But, one thing is for sure, they are doers of the Word.
Okay, here is what I learned today, during the Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost. Shortly after the priest changes his garments, the congregation and the priest exchange passages in Latin. I estimate that at least 50 percent of the congregation was responding in Latin. Many also sing along with the Gregorian Chants.
Another thing that I noticed today, is that during the Sunday High Masses the young alter boys do not kiss the hand of the priest. However, during last Wednesday’s High Mass for Immaculate Heart of Mary an older alter boy kissed the hand of the priest quite a few times during the Mass. Always, when the priest took off or put on his Biretta, when ever the priest added smoke power, when ever the priest cleaned his hands, when ever the priest handled the wine and water jars, plus I probably missed a few.
So, there you have it, my observations with out paper and pencil or reference books. Whether or not the this church picked up some bad habits during their 18 years of doing the Latin Mass, well, I suppose so. But, one thing is for sure, they are doers of the Word.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
<>
The word you’re looking for is not “smoke power” but “incense”, which you will find used in the Bible. [Edited by Moderator]
The word you’re looking for is not “smoke power” but “incense”, which you will find used in the Bible. [Edited by Moderator]
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holy_roamer
Guest
Sorry about that. I tried to be diplomatic and avoid using the word, “incense”, because of the Buddhists using that stuff.
Anyways, getting back on topic, the church where I go to High Mass on Sundays has been doing Latin Masses continuously for 18 years. Needless to say, the congregation is well versed in Latin and they respond in Latin at all the designated “S” passages in the 1962 Missal. The congregation also sings along with the choir as they sing the Gregorian Chants and sing in Latin at more of the designated “S” passages. All and all, I would estimate that there is as much participation from the congregation in Latin during High Mass as I have seen at NO masses in English.
One of the things that stands out about these, “doers of the Word”, is that I don’t have to tell them to get off there high horse. They are very humble and usually bow slightly when greeted. It is customary for some of these humble worshipers to keep their eyes on the tabernacle after receiving communion, and walk sideways across the front of the church and then backwards to their pew, always keeping their eyes on the tabernacle.
There is more to tell, but I don’t want to wander too far off topic. Again, my apologies for calling it, “smoke powder”.
.
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AJV
Guest
The *oscula *is performed several times during the Mass (non-Requiem). The rule is priest’s hand then object when receiving and object then hand when giving. However for some parts (e.g. the cruets at the low Mass) the hand is not kissed only the object. The *oscula *is prescribed by the rubrics at several places but is commonly done at other places also (like the biretta).
The younger altar servers not observing the kisses may be because they are not used to it. It could also be (though I think this would be unlikely) the survival of an American custom? Pre-Vatican II, certain places in the USA did not observe the rubrics exactly but their practises were sanctioned by immemorial custom or the Congregation of Rites. For example, bowing, rather than genuflecting to the Ordinary, and allowing the altar boys to bow rather than genuflect if the tabernacle was not on the altar.
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