Questions on the synod and Church infallibility

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Persecuted

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I’m sure you may all be sick of hearing about the synod but I have some genuine concerns to the extent that it’s almost becoming a (mini) crisis of faith for me.

I reverted to the Catholic in 2013 and one of the main reasons (among others) was the infallibility of the Catholic Church and the doctrinal certainty that Protestantism could not provide.

I’m a bit slow with the news so I have only know started to learn about the synod on the family and I have some questions regarding it and its impact (if any) on the infallibility of the Church.

From what I can gather, some of the items of concern are gay marriage and communion for the divorced and re-married.

Hypothetically, if the synod, with Pope Francis’ approval did approve of gay marriage, this would then certainly be the gates of hell overcoming the Church, would it not?

The second point I’m not so sure about. If the synod did allow for communion for the divorced and re-married, is this just a matter of bad discipline, or would also be an example of the gates of hell overcoming the Church?

I am also quite concerned about the number of bishops and cardinals that seem to be intent on implementing their liberal agendas in the Church. I have seen others here have similar concerns. Is it not the duty of the shepherds to protect their flock from such wolves? I’m sure ex-communication is not an easy, painless process but surely for the good of the Church there must be a consideration to remove these people from positions of authority?

Please help to allay my concerns if you can.
 
Persecuted said:
I’m sure you may all be sick of hearing about the synod but I have some genuine concerns to the extent that it’s almost becoming a (mini) crisis of faith for me.

I reverted to the Catholic in 2013 and one of the main reasons (among others) was the infallibility of the Catholic Church and the doctrinal certainty that Protestantism could not provide.

I’m a bit slow with the news so I have only know started to learn about the synod on the family and I have some questions regarding it and its impact (if any) on the infallibility of the Church.

From what I can gather, some of the items of concern are gay marriage and communion for the divorced and re-married.

Hypothetically, if the synod, with Pope Francis’ approval did approve of gay marriage, this would then certainly be the gates of hell overcoming the Church, would it not?

The second point I’m not so sure about. If the synod did allow for communion for the divorced and re-married, is this just a matter of bad discipline, or would also be an example of the gates of hell overcoming the Church?

I am also quite concerned about the number of bishops and cardinals that seem to be intent on implementing their liberal agendas in the Church. I have seen others here have similar concerns. Is it not the duty of the shepherds to protect their flock from such wolves? I’m sure ex-communication is not an easy, painless process but surely for the good of the Church there must be a consideration to remove these people from positions of authority?

Please help to allay my concerns if you can.
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The Synod of Bishops, created by Vatican II, is an advisory body for the pope, and it consists of a selected group of bishops. The Synod of Bishops is not the Magisterium, which includes the full body of bishops, and it does not have the authority to determine the authentic teachings of the Church. Its role is strictly advisory.

There seems to be much concern about what the Synod of Bishops will decide about the two issues you mention. The short answer is “nothing”, for it has no official authority other than to advise the pope. It would be a gross injustice to excommunicate someone for performing the role the pope has appointed him to perform, which is simply to provide him advise concerning those issues he has selected for discussion by the synod.
 
Persecuted said:
Please help to allay my concerns if you can.
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In my understanding, ditto Thomas White’s answer about this not a synod geared toward establishing dogma for the whole Church to hold. It is an advisory panel, basically.

Regarding bishops who may teach something inappropriately, remember 1 out of 12 of Jesus’ hand-picked apostles was a traitor. That’s 8%. And Peter denied him on a different day, though he came around later. Be not scandalized if a few should scare you. Often times, bishops are also taken out of context as well. Try to read source material always when it comes to news reporting on the Church.

The Church will not dogmatize the idea of gay “marriages.” The Church can no more “overturn” other principles within the natural law like “murder” or “stealing.”

As for communion, that is a pastoral matter, and you are correct, that is not inherently a matter of faith or morals and therefore outside the purview of infallibility.
 
I think that it is crucial that you learn more about the many heresies that plagued the church over the centuries, and to learn how they were defeated. You will see that there is always something going on, that the church is always fighting some kind of a lie. The only difference is that today we know about these things because of the fast availability of information via the internet, but essentially nothing new is happening.

So rest assured that even though the times are tough, what is happening now regarding these heterodox bishops is not the end of the church. Pray for strength and faith, daily. This is the only thing that helps me keep a positive attitude and inner peace.

Hope this helps.
 
Although I an not Catholic, I too believe in the infallibility of the church (which church is a different question ;)). Remember that at many times of church history, sometimes the orthodox (little o) Christians were in the minority, with heretics in the majority (also holding major patriarchal sees).
 
Is a subject to pay attention and worry but it should remember that in another times also existed problems with bishops against the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church and never the gates of hell overcame the Church. An evident example is the arian crisis in the 4th Century. Not only a few bishops but the **majority of bishop **of the Church hung onto heresy specially in the east part of the Roman Empire (almost every bishop) but the Pope and a few of bishops of the Catholic Church (bishops like Athanasius of Alexandria) resisted and kept clean the Magisterium and the infallible teachings of the Church. The anti-trinitarian heresy (arianism) didn’t prevail at the end not because the Pope and Athanasius of Alexandria were more intelligent or powerful than arian emperors and bishops (in fact the earthly powers were in hands of arian heretics), rather because Jesus never gave up alone His Church. It’s His promise. Today we are living dangerous times and the Church probably will be attacked in a terrible way because Satan knows the time is over.

In Matthew 24:9-14 Jesus speaks about the importance of persevering "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then* many will fall away, and betray** one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he **who endures to the end *will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. "

So I recommend you that you persevere within the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church , don’t give up despite all the bad news you read, pray and persevere.
 
Even if the hypothetical situation that you mentioned were to occur, it would not mean that the gates of hell had prevailed over the Church. You have to consider this - let’s just say that a giant meteor comes and wipes out all the Bishops, the Pope and the Vatican during the synod. The chair of Peter is empty, major church hierarchy has been eliminated. Is Catholicism dead? Of course not. The Catholic Church still exists regardless of what happens or changes on earth because it is based on truth, it was built upon Christ and exists in the spiritual realm even if the physical realm turns to dust and passes away. The Church is not a Pope, nor is it a place. So long as there is Christ there will always be the Church, His bride. Truth still exists even if an errant Pope decides to alter Church teaching. He can do so in the material sense - but the Church’s truth remains unaltered in God’s eyes, and in the eyes of those who truly live in God.
 
Ashira said:
Even if the hypothetical situation that you mentioned were to occur, it would not mean that the gates of hell had prevailed over the Church. You have to consider this - let’s just say that a giant meteor comes and wipes out all the Bishops, the Pope and the Vatican during the synod. The chair of Peter is empty, major church hierarchy has been eliminated. Is Catholicism dead? Of course not. The Catholic Church still exists regardless of what happens or changes on earth because it is based on truth, it was built upon Christ and exists in the spiritual realm even if the physical realm turns to dust and passes away. The Church is not a Pope, nor is it a place. So long as there is Christ there will always be the Church, His bride. Truth still exists even if an errant Pope decides to alter Church teaching. He can do so in the material sense - but the Church’s truth remains unaltered in God’s eyes, and in the eyes of those who truly live in God.
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While I don’t believe this for a minute - I am just being hypothetical (to the point of absurdity) - consider the possibility that the synod and the Pope could make some major pronouncement in favour of some kind of same-sex marriage, just maybe significantly differentiating it from holy matrimony. I don’t think it should or will. But promulgating something many of us would disagree with doesn’t make it wrong per se - just something uncomfortable for many of us. By closing its eyes and ears to pressing pastoral concerns, maybe THAT represents the triumph of the gates of hell (or getting closer to it) ?

To reiterate I am just being hypothetical - such a statement will certainly not be forthcoming (no matter how much the liberal wing hopes for it and however much the conservative one is fearful). My point is that however conservative or liberal we are should be able to entertain this kind of possibility as representing the truth. But again - this isn’t going to happen so don’t worry.

Allowing divorced-remarried catholics in otherwise good standing to receive holy communion would be I think a disciplinary matter (as others have pointed out), and so isn’t “covered” by infallibility. (In the same way, for example, that priestly celibacy is a disciplinary matter - not that I think any change forthcoming on that front); there would be nothing wrong or “hellish” with the Church changing its mind on the matter, though some people would surely disagree with the decision.

Not every “liberal” bishop has espoused actually heretical views; and there are lots of valid questions to be asked even if answering them in certain ways might well constitute heresy. There’s nothing wrong with asking the question, after all. Others have correctly pointed out already that there have been times in the church’s long history when not merely some but a majority of bishops have held heretical views (on very much more important questions like the nature of Christ!) - but the Truth, as the saying goes, will out. Please don’t worry on that front but we can all pray for guidance for every leader of our church locally, nationally and globally.

Read, think, and pray 😃

God bless
 
Persecuted said:
I’m sure you may all be sick of hearing about the synod but I have some genuine concerns to the extent that it’s almost becoming a (mini) crisis of faith for me.

I reverted to the Catholic in 2013 and one of the main reasons (among others) was the infallibility of the Catholic Church and the doctrinal certainty that Protestantism could not provide.

I’m a bit slow with the news so I have only know started to learn about the synod on the family and I have some questions regarding it and its impact (if any) on the infallibility of the Church.

From what I can gather, some of the items of concern are gay marriage and communion for the divorced and re-married.

Hypothetically, if the synod, with Pope Francis’ approval did approve of gay marriage, this would then certainly be the gates of hell overcoming the Church, would it not?

The second point I’m not so sure about. If the synod did allow for communion for the divorced and re-married, is this just a matter of bad discipline, or would also be an example of the gates of hell overcoming the Church?

I am also quite concerned about the number of bishops and cardinals that seem to be intent on implementing their liberal agendas in the Church. I have seen others here have similar concerns. Is it not the duty of the shepherds to protect their flock from such wolves? I’m sure ex-communication is not an easy, painless process but surely for the good of the Church there must be a consideration to remove these people from positions of authority?

Please help to allay my concerns if you can.
Click to expand...
The “Gates of Hell” will NEVER prevail against Christ’s Catholic Church, Never has and never will. Take Jesus at His Word and TRUST Him. Don’t listen to the media. They don’t run the Catholic Church even tho they would like to. We need to be concerned at how faithful we are to the TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw
 
Persecuted said:
Hypothetically, if the synod, with Pope Francis’ approval did approve of gay marriage, this would then certainly be the gates of hell overcoming the Church, would it not?
Click to expand...
Gay “marriage” in not on the table at the Synod. What was discussed was perhaps of finding some good in same-sex unions and perhaps blessing those unions while at the same time preserving the Church teaching on sexuality (e.g. better a stable union than promiscuous behaviour), but not gay marriage. I doubt either that a “blessing” of same-sex unions will occur, but perhaps some degree of greater tolerance.

The same with divorce and remarriage. There is no plan to change the teaching on the indissolubility of a valid sacramental marriage, but there has been some discussion about whether allowing communion for the divorced and remarried under certain conditions might be tolerated. The question under discussion would be whether this falls under discipline or doctrine. Opinion does appear divided on that last point, even among the cardinals. But keep in mind that this is a discussion among bishops, and the Holy Father asked for all to be able to give their opinions openly, without fear of recrimination. Some clerics unfortunately have problems with that and are close to open dissent with the Holy Father.

If you want some advice from a revert to the Church many years ago, who has passed through his own “dark night of the soul”… faith should be something of a continual process of self-conversion to Christ and shouldn’t be about worrying about this or that point of doctrine or discipline or what is doctrine vs. what is discipline; Christ is who saves, not discipline or doctrine. We know that we must strive to configure our lives to Christ (doctrine), and we also know that we must obey legitimate authority (discipline). When there is confusion over whether something is doctrine or discipline, even among clergy, can there be any danger in taking the high road and obeying the discipline just the same? If the Church even goes so far as to change a discipline or making it more flexible, we can if we wish continue to take the narrower definition but we can’t impose it on others.

On the Synod issue I see too many people worried about other folks’ issues (homosexuality, remarriage etc.) and I think that we should instead keep the eye on the prize as it affects our own lives. We all fall short of the Glory of God, and worrying about our own temptations and faults would do us far more good than worrying about a homosexual’s.

Lastly I would say something I heard from a fellow oblate friend recently: fear is the antithesis of faith and is the tool of the devil. Fear not, remember the Promise of the keys.
 
fasolislithuan said:
Today we are living dangerous times and the Church probably will be attacked in a terrible way because Satan knows the time is over.
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Yes, and methinks things will only get worse.
Memaw said:
The “Gates of Hell” will NEVER prevail against Christ’s Catholic Church, Never has and never will. Take Jesus at His Word and TRUST Him. Don’t listen to the media. They don’t run the Catholic Church even tho they would like to. We need to be concerned at how faithful we are to the TRUTH. God Bless, Memaw
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What more can be said?

Pray. Pray for the Pope and for the bishops and all the clergy.

Times such as these are times to ask for and exercise faith all the more, not times to lose faith (not that there is ever an appropriate time to do that).

“But when the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?”

Pray, hope, and don’t worry.
  • St. Padre Pio
 
OraLabora said:
Gay “marriage” in not on the table at the Synod. What was discussed was perhaps of finding some good in same-sex unions and perhaps blessing those unions while at the same time preserving the Church teaching on sexuality (e.g. better a stable union than promiscuous behaviour),
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There is no good in sin nor is it valid to bless sinful behavior.
 
OraLabora said:
On the Synod issue I see too many people worried about other folks’ issues (homosexuality, remarriage etc.) and I think that we should instead keep the eye on the prize as it affects our own lives. We all fall short of the Glory of God, and worrying about our own temptations and faults would do us far more good than worrying about a homosexual’s.
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It is remarkable that whenever the faithful raise concerns about matters that will affect us we are told to shut up and not be concerned about other people’ sins. Well, I hate to tell you but if we have bishops promoting such stuff then the faith will be compromised and that will have consequences. People will be taught false doctrine for a start. How does that not affect me and every other Catholic? I’m in a position - as a parent - to say to my children that what some bishops are saying is a lie and that they should look elsewhere for authority in teaching. How is this not a huge problem and a very practical issue?
 
Persecuted said:
I’m sure you may all be sick of hearing about the synod but I have some genuine concerns to the extent that it’s almost becoming a (mini) crisis of faith for me.

I reverted to the Catholic in 2013 and one of the main reasons (among others) was the infallibility of the Catholic Church and the doctrinal certainty that Protestantism could not provide.

I’m a bit slow with the news so I have only know started to learn about the synod on the family and I have some questions regarding it and its impact (if any) on the infallibility of the Church.

From what I can gather, some of the items of concern are gay marriage and communion for the divorced and re-married.

Hypothetically, if the synod, with Pope Francis’ approval did approve of gay marriage, this would then certainly be the gates of hell overcoming the Church, would it not?

The second point I’m not so sure about. If the synod did allow for communion for the divorced and re-married, is this just a matter of bad discipline, or would also be an example of the gates of hell overcoming the Church?

I am also quite concerned about the number of bishops and cardinals that seem to be intent on implementing their liberal agendas in the Church. I have seen others here have similar concerns. Is it not the duty of the shepherds to protect their flock from such wolves? I’m sure ex-communication is not an easy, painless process but surely for the good of the Church there must be a consideration to remove these people from positions of authority?

Please help to allay my concerns if you can.
Click to expand...
Whatever decision is made by the Church, the infallible teachings on faith and morals shall be maintained, this is a dogma of faith.
 
I think that what was perhaps meant is that some type of recognition of the good inherent in a relationship or in anything else would not necessarily be wrong.

In the ‘Confessions’, St. Augustine wrote at length about finding the good in every act. He concluded that the motivation for many sinful acts was a wish for companionship, which he believed was good. This had to do with his resistance to the concept that pure evil in itself could exist alone in the world. This was a philosophical issue he sought to resolve on his approach to conversion to Christianity.

In this way, Augustine did not think it wrong to look for and recognize what is good wherever it exists.

However, I personally believe it would prove extremely problematic for the Church to go so far as to bless homosexual unions as such. I cannot fathom this happening nor have I seen where bishops are promoting any such thing.

ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/selfish-armchair-christians-distance-people-christ-pope-says
 
OraLabora said:
Gay “marriage” in not on the table at the Synod. What was discussed was perhaps of finding some good in same-sex unions and perhaps blessing those unions while at the same time preserving the Church teaching on sexuality (e.g. better a stable union than promiscuous behaviour), but not gay marriage. I doubt either that a “blessing” of same-sex unions will occur, but perhaps some degree of greater tolerance.

The same with divorce and remarriage. There is no plan to change the teaching on the indissolubility of a valid sacramental marriage, but there has been some discussion about whether allowing communion for the divorced and remarried under certain conditions might be tolerated. The question under discussion would be whether this falls under discipline or doctrine. Opinion does appear divided on that last point, even among the cardinals. But keep in mind that this is a discussion among bishops, and the Holy Father asked for all to be able to give their opinions openly, without fear of recrimination. Some clerics unfortunately have problems with that and are close to open dissent with the Holy Father.

If you want some advice from a revert to the Church many years ago, who has passed through his own “dark night of the soul”… faith should be something of a continual process of self-conversion to Christ and shouldn’t be about worrying about this or that point of doctrine or discipline or what is doctrine vs. what is discipline; Christ is who saves, not discipline or doctrine. We know that we must strive to configure our lives to Christ (doctrine), and we also know that we must obey legitimate authority (discipline). When there is confusion over whether something is doctrine or discipline, even among clergy, can there be any danger in taking the high road and obeying the discipline just the same? If the Church even goes so far as to change a discipline or making it more flexible, we can if we wish continue to take the narrower definition but we can’t impose it on others.

On the Synod issue I see too many people worried about other folks’ issues (homosexuality, remarriage etc.) and I think that we should instead keep the eye on the prize as it affects our own lives. We all fall short of the Glory of God, and worrying about our own temptations and faults would do us far more good than worrying about a homosexual’s.

Lastly I would say something I heard from a fellow oblate friend recently: fear is the antithesis of faith and is the tool of the devil. Fear not, remember the Promise of the keys.
Click to expand...
I believe this is quite correct on every point. 👍
 
Ashira said:
Even if the hypothetical situation that you mentioned were to occur, it would not mean that the gates of hell had prevailed over the Church. You have to consider this - let’s just say that a giant meteor comes and wipes out all the Bishops, the Pope and the Vatican during the synod. The chair of Peter is empty, major church hierarchy has been eliminated. Is Catholicism dead? Of course not. The Catholic Church still exists regardless of what happens or changes on earth because it is based on truth, it was built upon Christ and exists in the spiritual realm even if the physical realm turns to dust and passes away. The Church is not a Pope, nor is it a place. So long as there is Christ there will always be the Church, His bride. Truth still exists even if an errant Pope decides to alter Church teaching. He can do so in the material sense - but the Church’s truth remains unaltered in God’s eyes, and in the eyes of those who truly live in God.
Click to expand...
But without the Bishops, we don’t have apostolic succession, which is one of the four marks of the true church, no? And if St. Ignatius is concerned, the full existence of the church is the bishop with the congregation. And without bishops, we don’t have any of the sacraments (except baptism and holy matrimony I suppose from Catholic theology).
 
Contra_Mundum said:
I’m in a position - as a parent - to say to my children that what some bishops are saying is a lie and that they should look elsewhere for authority in teaching. How is this not a huge problem and a very practical issue?
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What is it that some bishops are saying that is a lie? Could you provide an example?
 
Thomas_White said:
What is it that some bishops are saying that is a lie? Could you provide an example?
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Example: the meeting that took place in Rome the other day. How are we supposed to understand that? Exercise in faithfulness and orthodoxy?
Can they be trusted to teach the true faith?
 
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