Questions on Trent

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n Romans 4, Paul reaches the heart of his argument, appealing to the example of Abraham. ‘What then shall we say that Abraham our forefather discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. What
does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ In other words, a salary isn’t a gift; the company owes it to you. Rome actually argues that we merit (de congruo) justification by cooperating with grace. But merit is precisely what Paul is excluding here. ‘However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.’ In one fell swoop, Paul destroys every plank in the Roman doctrine of justification. Rome says that justification is merited; Paul says it is a gift. Rome says that it is given to those who work for it; Paul says it is given to those who do not work for it. Rome says that God only justifies those who are truly holy inherently; Paul says that God only justifies those who are truly wicked inherently. Rome says that justification is a process of attaining righteousness; Paul says that justification is a declaration of imputed or ‘credited’ righteousness.
That excerpt came from Michael Horton any thoughts? Is this accurate of Catholicism?
 
In the Roman system, as we have seen, justification is sanctification. Through baptism, we are renewed and by cooperating with grace infused we merit final justification.

The long and short of this was that on the eve of the Reformation itself, there were many different interpretations of this doctrine, but the decisive moment occurred not with Luther, but with the Roman Catholic humanist, Erasmus, to whose criticism of the Latin text of Scripture we have already briefly alluded.

The Latin Vulgate, Jerome’s 4th century translation of the Scriptures, had been the official translation throughout the middle ages, and its integrity was generally assumed. But then came the Renaissance, a recovery of classical learning that included a return to the original Greek text of Scripture. As Oxford theologian Alister McGrath observes, the best example of the errors in the Latin Vulgate, corrected in tail end of the Renaissance, concerns its translation of the Greek word ‘dikaiosune,’ which means ‘to declare righteous.’ It is a legal term, a verdict. But the Latin Vulgate had translated ‘dikaiosune’ with the Latin word iustificare, which means ‘to make righteous.’ Erasmus and a host of classical scholars recognized that the Greek text required an understanding of justification that referred to a change in status rather than to a change in behavior or mode of being. Again, Erasmus had no doctrinal stake in this matter. He was not only a loyal son of the Roman church; he had engaged in heated polemics with Luther over free will. Nevertheless, he was Europe’s leading authority on the classical languages and could not overlook the glaring mistranslations. For this reason it has been said that Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.

Many Roman Catholic biblical scholars of our own day recognize that the Roman position is untenable in the light of the biblical text. I am not only referring to such controversial theologians as Hans Kung, but to the accepted interpretations of Roman doctrine.

Bearing the nihil obstat and Imprimatur of the Roman Church, Sacramentum Mundi is a modern encyclopedia of Roman doctrine. In its article on Justification we read that justification ‘implies a relation with a judgment rather than a mode of being.’ The term for Paul,
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‘always has a certain forensic flavour which prevents its becoming a mere synonym of regeneration or re-creation. In later theology, however, this sense is often lost, and justification comes to mean nothing more than the infusion of grace (D 799). Now when St. Paul applies the juridical terminology to the new Christian reality, it acquires an entirely new meaning. It refers now not to the future but to the past (Rom.5:9), not to the just man but the sinner (Rom.4:5). And so the basis of justification must also be different. It can no longer be observance of the law. It must be Christ, whom God has made our righteousness and sanctification and redemption (1 Cor.1:30), which is the same thing as saying that we are justified by faith in Christ (Rom.3:28).’  by Ricardo Franco, pp. 239-240]
Furthermore, arguably the two most widely respected Roman Catholic biblical scholars, J. A. Fitzmyer and Raymond Brown, have recognized that justification is understood in the biblical text to mean legal acquittal and not a process of growth in inherent righteousness. ‘Justification in the Old Testament,’ writes Fitzmyer, ‘denotes one who stood acquitted or vindicated before a judge’s tribunal…This uprightness (righteousness) does not belong to human beings (Rom. 10:3), and is not something that they produced or merited; it is an alien uprightness, one belonging to another (Christ) and attributed to them because of what that other had done for them…This justification comes about by grace and through faith’ (Romans, AB 33, pp.116-19).

But we can even go a step beyond Sacramentum Mundi and Fitzmyer, citing an article that our opponents will no doubt respect, since it is published in their magazine, This Rock (April 1995). After attacking the Protestant doctrine of ‘faith alone,’ Leslie Rumble concedes, ‘Now it is quite true that Paul made use of a word which in the Greek language had the technical meaning of legal acquittal. And if the word can have no other meaning than that, one could scarcely dispute the interpretation of justification as implying no more than to be accounted as righteous or not guilty in the sight of God.’ But alas, ‘Luther had not the advantages of modern scholarship.’ ‘He belonged to an age when it was thought that the real meaning of the New Testament could be best ascertained by discovering the exact sense of the Greek language in which its books were originally written.’ Rumble evidently thinks that the meaning of the biblical text cannot be discerned in the same manner as Homer or Aristotle.

Having conceded that the New Testament Greek text agrees with Luther, Rumble nevertheless rejects this view on the basis that ‘the whole religious outlook’ takes precedence over the fine print. Although he admits that this interpretation is at odds with the Scriptures in their original language, we are supposed to take Rumble’s word for it that ‘the whole religious outlook’ of the Bible endorses the Roman position, even though its actual words contradict it.

The verbal ending of dikaiow is declarative; if the biblical writers intended by ‘justification’ a process of moral transformation, there is a perfectly good verbal ending for that sort of thing in Greek: adzo rather than ow. For instance, ‘to make holy’ is translated from the Greek verb, ‘hagiodzo,’ and this word is never rendered ‘to justify.’ When the biblical writers refer to justification, they use the declarative ending; when they refer to sanctification, they use the progressive ending. If it is good enough of a distinction for the biblical writers themselves, surely we should have not trouble with the Bible’s own language.

Is the above true?
 
God wants man truly, ontologically, just, not merely declared just. Otherwise He’d be in the awkward position of giving man laws he couldn’t possibly obey, then blaming him for disobedience anyway, then sort of capriciously deciding at some later date to forgive sins and declare man just-at least some-in spite of his sin. God’s creation, in this case, remains soiled, out of sync with His will, with sinners apparently entering heaven.

But does God deal with us in mercy and love or is he some stern judge who demands absolute perfect obedience from us? Can God be lenient and merciful?
Of course He’s lenient and merciful-beyond measure! But even His justice is based on His love; again, those who adamantly, continuously reject love-who reject God-for selfish pride eventually get what they want. Purgatory is a merciful “place” of final purification for those already saved and yet not fully “sold out” to God. Justice, otherwise, might demand their condemnation.
 
“Luther points to Augustine for the sense that the righteousness of God is that by which God imparts and makes people righteous. Luther emphasized the immediacy of justification.”

I think a Catholic can agree with the above statement since they also believe that God gives us an infused righteousness as a gift which makes us righteous.
The problem is that, in large part, the Reformers taught the foolish idea of the permanency of salvation-that one could do nothing to lose it, or could do nothing to lose it so long as they fervently maintained belief, or could do nothing to lose it so long as they had the right kind of faith, or could do nothing to lose it so long as they were numbered among the “elect” to begin with (that they were “true believers” or “really saved”), or so long as they persevered, or some other such contrived means which ends up putting the salvation cart ahead of the horse, as if Matt 25:31-46 and similar passages were simply dismissed or their meanings twisted to fit their theologies. Trent referred to this as the “vain confidence of the heretics”.
 
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 Is this accurate of Catholicism?
Vinny, it is against the forum rules here to cut and paste from other web sites, especially without giving the source. I have asked you to take parts of the Council of Trent documents or the Catechism and bring them here to clear up your questions. Instead you continue to use Wikipedia and other non-Catholic sources. Why?

This excerpt appears to be part of a bible study from this site:
z11.invisionfree.com/unshakable/ar/t261.htm

Instead of using other’s opinions of what Catholicism is about, why not look at Catholic documents? I am beginning to wonder if you really want to know what the CC teaches, or if you are just interested in throwing various other people’s opinions around.
Roman Catholicism. In the Roman tradition the righteousness of God was understood more as that which was demanded by God.
I challenge you to find any Catholic document that supports this idea.

The Catholic understanding of righteousness is that we are adopted children of God, and that we enter a relationship with Him here, which He intends to last for eternity.
The medieval understanding of the nature of justification referred not merely to the beginning of the Christian life, but to its continuation and ultimate perfection, in which the Christian is made righteous in the sight of God and the sight of others through a fundamental change in nature (McGrath).
There is nothing “medieval” about this understanding. This is what the Apostles taught. It was preserved infallibly in the Church for the last 2000 years.
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The prevailing pre-Reformation view in the West of the righteousness of God was that of a distributive justice whereby God judges justly according to God’s holiness.
This is not a “pre-Reformation” view either. God has been judging by His own standard of Holiness since the creation of mankind.
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 A common theological position was that righteousness of God was a subjective genitive, God’s holiness being the norm by which all would be judged. Luther’s personal struggle with the inexorable righteousness of God resulted in an understanding of the righteousness of God that was deeper than his tradition had grasped.
This is certainly an interteresting opinion It is impossible to know whose opinion it is, since no names are given on the webstite from which it was taken. It reflects a gross ignorance of the Catholic Sacred Tradition , as well as an ignorance of the psychological struggles Luther expereinced with regard to his guilt.

Luther did finally come to grasp what his confessors and spiritual directors had been trying to instill in him for decades about God’s grace, forgiveness, and justification. Unfortunately, he was unable to undrestand this without falliing into various heresies.
In Catholic thought, justification was not considered something in the present as much as a process leading to the ultimate future judgment.
This is inaccurate. Catholic thought has always been , is now,a nd will be “all about” getting into a state of grace (in the present) and remaining there.

It seems like only a person very ignorant of “Catholic thought” could make a statement like this.

I strongly recommend, if you really are interested in learning what Catholics believe, that you do so from Catholic sources.
 
“Luther points to Augustine for the sense that the righteousness of God is that by which God imparts and makes people righteous. Luther emphasized the immediacy of justification.”

I think a Catholic can agree with the above statement since they also believe that God gives us an infused righteousness as a gift which makes us righteous.
Yes, what Augustine wrote is certainly Catholic. Luther was unable to accept what Augustine wrote within the Catholic context where it’s meaning was comprehensive. For some reason he had great difficulty grasping what the CC teaches about the immediacy of justification, and felt that he needed to reinvent the doctrines according to his own needs.
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Is the above quote accurate of the Roman Catholic understanding of judgement and salvation?
No.
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 Does not God deal with us in mercy and love instead of strict justice? Is he not a loving father instead of some stern distant judge?
He deals with us according to both. His justice and His love. This is not “either / or” but “both”.

It is not loving father “instead” of stern judge. Both are true.
 
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In other words, a salary isn’t a gift; the company owes it to you. Rome actually argues that we merit (de congruo) justification by cooperating with grace. But merit is precisely what Paul is excluding here. ‘However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.’ In one fell swoop, Paul destroys every plan in the Roman doctrine of justification. Rome says that justification is merited; Paul says it is a gift. Rome says that it is given to those who work for it; Paul says it is given to those who do not work for it. Rome says that God only justifies those who are truly holy inherently; Paul says that God only justifies those who are truly wicked inherently. Rome says that justification is a process of attaining righteousness; Paul says that justification is a declaration of imputed or ‘credited’ righteousness.
That excerpt came from Michael Horton any thoughts? Is this accurate of Catholicism?
No, it is not, but I am thinking that you really don’t want to know what is “accurate of Catholicism”, since you are refusing to accept what the CC teaches, and you keep looking at anti-Catholic sources.

It is clear that Michael Horton does not understand how the CC uses the term “merit” in this context.

It would make more sense if you understood it as “worthy”. God makes us “worthy” of salvation when we cooperate with His free gift, by transforming us into the image of His son.

1 John 3:1-3
3:1 See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

I am not even sure I should attempt to respond to the post following this, as is such a blatant violation of the forum rules. It may be that you will not continue to be allowed to post here.
 
There is nothing “medieval” about this understanding. This is what the Apostles taught. It was preserved infallibly in the Church for the last 2000 years.

I know this is the teaching of Augustine as well not just the medieval period. I also have a question on justification to ask you. Is it true that in Catholicism justification is also an event not just a process? In baptism we are instantly infused with sanctifying grace and instantly justified, making this the event part. Being conformed to Christ’s image is the process. I think its important because this was also the teaching of the medievals and early church fathers.

This is not a “pre-Reformation” view either. God has been judging by His own standard of Holiness since the creation of mankind.

Yes but is God’s own standard strict obedience and justice or can he be lenient and merciful? I think that was part of Luther’s struggle, he felt that God would never accept him because he demands absolute perfection and anything less than that is sin and damnation. I am wondering if this was just a misunderstanding on Luther’s part of catholic teaching.

A common theological position was that righteousness of God was a subjective genitive, God’s holiness being the norm by which all would be judged.

Are you saying that the above is in fact inaccurate?

This is inaccurate. Catholic thought has always been , is now,a nd will be “all about” getting into a state of grace (in the present) and remaining there.

I think that is important to stress because many are of the opinion (including Michael Horton) that in Catholicism justification is only something that occurs at the ends of ones life when that person has made good use of the sacraments, confessed their sins to a priest and died without sin. They fail to realize that justification has a past dimension in Catholicism and that it is an already attained state which man does not have to work for or merit because it happens gratuitously at baptism.
 
I will engage with you. I have already checked the sources you have sent me. If I bring quotes from Thomas Aquinas does that count as following the guidelines?
 
There is nothing “medieval” about this understanding. This is what the Apostles taught. It was preserved infallibly in the Church for the last 2000 years.

I know this is the teaching of Augustine as well not just the medieval period. I also have a question on justification to ask you. Is it true that in Catholicism justification is also an event not just a process? In baptism we are instantly infused with sanctifying grace and instantly justified, making this the event part. Being conformed to Christ’s image is the process. I think its important because this was also the teaching of the medievals and early church fathers. .
In Catholcism justification and sanctification are inseparable. To the extent one has opportunity to be sanctified, they must be-they’re expected to grow in holiness. From the Catechism:
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

So it’s not either/or, one-time event vs progresive process, it’s both/and. If a person dies right after Baptism with the proper disposition of faith, he will enter Gods presence immediately. God challenges most of us, however, with the gift of longer lives, which test and refine our will to remain in a state of holiness. In every case God judges by the heart.
 
I will engage with you. I have already checked the sources you have sent me. If I bring quotes from Thomas Aquinas does that count as following the guidelines?
[CONTENT RULES

Do not paste entire articles from web sites into a post. If you wish to reference an article on the web, link to its web address, instead. ](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2)

Failing to provide references and links to where you are taking your text is considered plagaiarism.

You opened this thread for Questions on Trent. I recommend you stick to the topic.

I don;t think you anticatholic bible study material you are posting here has any relationship to the topic.
 
With regard to salvation being by works or by faith, I think it is correct to say that we are saved by grace through faith and God works through us to do good works which ultimately we are eschatologically justified by. However I think Catholics got Pauline justification wrong. The Protestants also get this wrong. It is not an imputation of Christs righteousness. Justification is the process whereby we are translated from our condition of guilt in Adam to the state of being forgiven in Christ Jesus. Baptism provides for us an engrafting into the mysteries of Christs death and resurrection. We Are crucified and raised already in Christ and our justification ( forgiveness of sin and guilt) come as a result of this baptismal regeneration. It is Christ’s death and our baptism that our sins are not imputed to us, which is another way of describing justification, which is the remission of sins (rom 4:6-9) I think Trent reflects this as well.
 
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 However I think Catholics got Pauline justification wrong. The Protestants also get this wrong.
I am glad that you found an answer that suits yourself. Perhaps you no longer have need of participating in the Catholic Answers Forum.
 
I said I think, I am not certain though, which is why I am here to learn more. Please do not write me off as some sort of troll. I apologize if that is the impression I gave.
 
I said I think, I am not certain though, which is why I am here to learn more. Please do not write me off as some sort of troll. I apologize if that is the impression I gave.
In Catholicism justification is way more than the mere forgiveness of sins. It’s the addition of grace. To put it simply, it’s the addition of God’s Spirit into mans being. Man cannot be just without that.
 
In Catholcism justification and sanctification are inseparable. To the extent one has opportunity to be sanctified, they must be-they’re expected to grow in holiness. From the Catechism:
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

So it’s not either/or, one-time event vs progresive process, it’s both/and. If a person dies right after Baptism with the proper disposition of faith, he will enter Gods presence immediately. God challenges most of us, however, with the gift of longer lives, which test and refine our will to remain in a state of holiness. In every case God judges by the heart.
I understand what your saying, but justification at baptism happens instantly and is an event. At baptism we are instantly infused with sanctifying grace and instantly made righteous, that is an event. This sanctifying grace instantly justifies us at baptism. I just want to correct Protestant misunderstanding that our justification as understood as a right standing with God is a process when it is an instantaneous event that happens at baptism. The process of justification means growing in that justice received and holding on to it making sure that we preserve it and dont lose it.
I recommend this great article from catholic apologist Bryan Cross:
calledtocommunion.com/2009/12/justification-catholic-church-and-the-judaizers/
 
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I understand what your saying, but justification at baptism happens instantly and is an event. At baptism we are instantly infused with sanctifying grace and instantly made righteous, that is an event. This sanctifying grace instantly justifies us at baptism. I just want to correct Protestant misunderstanding that our justification as understood as a right standing with God is a process when it is an instantaneous event that happens at baptism.
I am beginning to think that perhaps you are cognitively unable to hold two truths in your mind simultaneously, so you may not be able to appreciate that both things are true.

The Protestants do not “misunderstand” that our justification with God is a process. This is Catholic teaching.
The process of justification means growing in that justice received and holding on to it making sure that we preserve it and dont lose it.
I recommend this great article from catholic apologist Bryan Cross:
calledtocommunion.com/2009/12/justification-catholic-church-and-the-judaizers/
It seems like you know that both things are true, so I am not sure what the trouble is.

I don’t see how you can correct a “Protestant misunderstanding” when you can’t seem to understand yourself!

Justification is about being in right relationship with God. We enter a right relationship with God initially through baptism. We work out the grace of our baptism throughout our lives so as to remain in right relationship with Him (a state of grace).
 
Baptism saves.

Baptism happens at a discrete moment in time. The Free grace from God in that discrete moment in time flows from the past through the present and will continue to flow into the future if not interrupted by mortal sin.

The whole Christian life from baptism to death is a process of justification.

Every time one mortally sins the flow of grace is interrupted and a person is on the way to hell.

Everytime a person confesses their mortal sins to a priest and are forgiven then the flow of grace begins agin and they are on their way to heaven.

It is true that God knows who will persevere to the end but absent a special revelation of God we never know for 100% certainty if we will persevere or not.

The good thief on his cross was told by Jesus “today thou shall be with me in paradise”. He received a special revelation that he would persevere from Our Lord Jesus who is God. Most all of the rest of us don’t receive a revelation like that.

While it is impossible to 100% be sure if we will persevere and St. Paul tells us to “work our our salvation with fear and trembling”–it is true that a Catholic can have not an absolute certainty but a moral certainty that they will persevere if they are in a state of grace–are receiving the sacraments–attending Mass, giving alms, praying and thanking God, and are living out the beatitudes with love or charity.

Moral certainty doesn’t mean that you don’t bew careful lest you should fall.

Grace is ALWAYS a FLOW–it is always CONTINUING like God who is continuing–remember God said I AM–not I WAS.

Justification isn’t something that WAS it is something that continues from the past through the present and into the future.

What I don’t understand about some Protestants is how they can’t grasp CONTINUANCE and how others can’t understand that just because faith CAN CONTINUE doesn’t NECESSARILY mean that it ALWAYS continues–it doesn’t continue every time that mortal sin happens!

Even if hypotheticaly a person dies right after baptism–even if only for a billionth of a second in time–for that billionth of second in time Grace FLOWS!

Therefore grace and justification and faith can NEVER ONLY BE DISCRETE or only be ALONE!

It is impossible to have “faith alone” for faith CAN’T be alone–a FLOW CAN’T be discrete!
 
Baptism saves.

Baptism happens at a discrete moment in time. The Free grace from God in that discrete moment in time flows from the past through the present and will continue to flow into the future if not interrupted by mortal sin.

The whole Christian life from baptism to death is a process of justification.

Yes but initial justification happens instantly and is not gradual. We are instantly justified at baptism but we must grow in that grace received and hold on to that gift, that is the process. So it would be incorrect for a protestant to assume that in Catholicism the justification of the ungodly takes place over a person’s lifetime if they mean divine acceptation by that. I notice that certain catholic apologists are not always careful to make that distinction between initial and progressive justification, they sometimes gloss over the event part. Thus, the infusion of grace, turn toward God, turn from sin, and remission of sin all takes place simultaneously. Aquinas argues that justification of the ungodly takes place instantaneously rather than successively. Here is what Aquinas said:

On the contrary, The justification of the ungodly is caused by the justifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit comes to men’s minds suddenly, according to Acts 2:2: “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a mighty wind coming,” upon which the gloss says that “the grace of the Holy Ghost knows no tardy efforts.” Hence the justification of the ungodly is not successive, but instantaneous. I answer that, The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted. Now the infusion of grace takes place in an instant and without succession.
 
Baptism saves.

Baptism happens at a discrete moment in time. The Free grace from God in that discrete moment in time flows from the past through the present and will continue to flow into the future if not interrupted by mortal sin.

The whole Christian life from baptism to death is a process of justification.

Yes but initial justification happens instantly and is not gradual. We are instantly justified at baptism but we must grow in that grace received and hold on to that gift, that is the process. So it would be incorrect for a protestant to assume that in Catholicism the justification of the ungodly takes place over a person’s lifetime if they mean divine acceptation by that. I notice that certain catholic apologists are not always careful to make that distinction between initial and progressive justification, they sometimes gloss over the event part. Thus, the infusion of grace, turn toward God, turn from sin, and remission of sin all takes place simultaneously. Aquinas argues that justification of the ungodly takes place instantaneously rather than successively. Here is what Aquinas said:

On the contrary, The justification of the ungodly is caused by the justifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit comes to men’s minds suddenly, according to Acts 2:2: “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a mighty wind coming,” upon which the gloss says that “the grace of the Holy Ghost knows no tardy efforts.” Hence the justification of the ungodly is not successive, but instantaneous. I answer that, The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted. Now the infusion of grace takes place in an instant and without succession.
Yes, that’s fine. But many Protestants will argue that this justification can’t be lost or compromised again, or that it doesn’t need, necessarily, to grow if possible. In the end God is the judge, the judge of what we’ve done with what we’ve been given, with all the various parameters that may be involved, from initial justification on through to our death. From our perspective the rest is academic for the most part, since only God knows with 100% certainty who is saved and who is not. We just need to do as He directs.
 
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