Questions on Trent

[Vinny213]

So the above quote from Aquinas is in harmony with modern catholic teaching? It seems Aquinas seems to be saying that initial justification is instantaenous and the transfer from a status of ungodly to godly happens in an instant at baptism. However the increase in justice where the godly grow in godliness is gradual.

 

[Vinny213]

Here is the link to the Aquinas quote if any wonders where I am getting my sources:
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/nature_grace.viii.v.vii.html

Aquinas is saying that the transfer from the Kingdom of darkness to that of lift happens instantly. Here is just an excerpt that can be found in the above link:
the justification of the ungodly in its entirety has its origin in the infusion of grace. The free will is moved by grace, and guilt is removed by grace. Now the infusion of grace takes place in an instant, without any succession. For if any form is 195not imprinted on its subject suddenly, the reason is that its subject is not disposed to it, and that the agent needs time to make it so. Hence we see that a substantial form is received by matter at once, whenever matter becomes disposed to it through preliminary alteration. Hence also the atmosphere is at once illuminated by a body which is actually bright, since it is of its own accord disposed to receive light. Now we have already said that God needs no disposition, other than that which he himself creates, in order to infuse grace into the soul. As we said in Q. 112, Art. 2, he sometimes creates a disposition sufficient for the reception of grace all at once, sometimes by gradual degrees. A natural agent cannot adapt matter in an instant, because there is something in matter which resists his power. Matter is consequently adapted the more quickly the stronger is the power of the agent, as we may observe. The divine power can therefore adapt any created matter whatsoever instantly to its form, since the divine power is infinite. Much more can it so adapt the free will, the movement of which can be instantaneous by nature. The justification of the ungodly is therefore achieved by God in an instant.

I just want to compare this with the following quote from Trent to those who might accuse me if straying off topic and not dealing with catholic sources:

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instru-[Page 35]mental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which [Page 36] Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

Those anyone see any harmony with the quote from Trent and that from Aquinas?

 

[Vinny213]

We have to be careful to distinguish the justification of the ungodly (initial justification) here from progressive justification of the already justified or the eschatological justification at the final judgment (final justification). Catholics teach God justifies the ungodly instantaneously by grace alone apart from any merit: in this it is ungodly sinners who are being made righteous by grace, not “those who are truly holy inherently.” But after this justification has taken place, Christians become (or at least can become) more and more holy by growing in grace, and inasmuch as this is referred to as progressive justification, one could say that the object of justification here is in fact someone who has already been made holy, but “inherently” is a very misleading word to apply even here, since although the righteousness is considered by Catholics as being located within (by the divine grace indwelling or infused), the origin and cause of this grace is outside the believer (which makes it in this sense an alien righteousness). Saying Catholics believe it’s “inherent” makes it sound like they believe it originated from within rather than from without (and so this is a poorly chosen word in my opinion to describe the Catholic view and gives a distorted picture for Protestant audiences). Finally, at the eschatological judgment (final justification) the situation is also the justification of the holy. Believers (who have been made holy by grace) are at this judgment judged (and justified) according to works (Romans 2). While progressive and final justification have the holy person as their object, neither senses of justification are how Catholic interpret most the key passages in Romans where Paul talks about the “justification of the ungodly” (Romans 4:5), and the first sense of justification (initial justification) does not have the holy person as the object of justification.

 

[guanophore]

Yes but initial justification happens instantly and is not gradual. We are instantly justified at baptism but we must grow in that grace received and hold on to that gift, that is the process. So it would be incorrect for a protestant to assume that in Catholicism the justification of the ungodly takes place over a person’s lifetime if they mean divine acceptation by that.

Yes, I see your point. But we are talking apples and oranges in such a context. Most Protestants separate justification (initially being placed in right relationship with God) from sanctification. So when we try to talk about these concepts, we usually end up talking past one another. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that sanctification is a life long process. What we don’t agree upon is that justified people can fall from grace, and no longer be in right relationship with God (because of the sin which separates us).

The Apostles taught that divine acceptance is based upon being justified (being in right relationship with God). Since they also taught we can fall from grace, and fail to be united with our heavenly inheritance, not all those who are justified are eventually glorified.

I notice that certain catholic apologists are not always careful to make that distinction between initial and progressive justification, they sometimes gloss over the event part. Thus, the infusion of grace, turn toward God, turn from sin, and remission of sin all takes place simultaneously. Aquinas argues that justification of the ungodly takes place instantaneously rather than successively. Here is what Aquinas said:

I agree with you, but not catholic apologists only, but most Catholics have no clue what occurred in baptism, and the power that is at work within them to will and to do His good pleasure.

 The justification of the ungodly is caused by the justifying grace of the Holy Spirit. Now the Holy Spirit comes to men's minds suddenly, according to Acts 2:2: "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a mighty wind coming," upon which the gloss says that "the grace of the Holy Ghost knows no tardy efforts." Hence the justification of the ungodly is not successive, but instantaneous. I answer that, The entire justification of the ungodly consists as to its origin in the infusion of grace. For it is by grace that free-will is moved and sin is remitted. Now the infusion of grace takes place in an instant and without succession.

Yes.

 

[guanophore]

 So the above quote from Aquinas is in harmony with modern catholic teaching? It seems Aquinas seems to be saying that initial justification is instantaenous and the transfer from a status of ungodly to godly happens in an instant at baptism. However the increase in justice where the godly grow in godliness is gradual.

Yes, this is Catholic teaching.

 Here is the link to the Aquinas quote if any wonders where I am getting my sources:

ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/nature_grace.viii.v.vii.html

Thank you, this is much appreciated!

Your credibility has increased markedly.

I just want to compare this with the following quote from Trent to those who might accuse me if straying off topic and not dealing with catholic sources:

Who might do such a thing?

  Those anyone see any harmony with the quote from Trent and that from Aquinas?

I think a better question would be, where do you see any disharmony.

 

[guanophore]

We have to be careful to distinguish

Who is “we”, and why must “we” be careful to distinguish?

the justification of the ungodly (initial justification) here from progressive justification of the already justified or the eschatological justification at the final judgment (final justification). Catholics teach God justifies the ungodly instantaneously by grace alone apart from any merit: in this it is ungodly sinners who are being made righteous by grace, not “those who are truly holy inherently.” But after this justification has taken place, Christians become (or at least can become) more and more holy by growing in grace, and inasmuch as this is referred to as progressive justification,

It is also called sanctification, and in the East, theosis.

one could say that the object of justification here is in fact someone who has already been made holy, but “inherently” is a very misleading word to apply even here, since although the righteousness is considered by Catholics as being located within (by the divine grace indwelling or infused), the origin and cause of this grace is outside the believer (which makes it in this sense an alien righteousness).

No. When we are sealed in baptism, an ontological change takes place. We are made partakers of the divine nature. God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. We are being transformed from one glory into another. We are UNITED to HIm, in His death and resurrection. We become MEMBERS of Him, and His One Body. Therefore the grace is no longer “alien” or outside the believer, but infused into the person, and one is brought “in Christ”.

This is where the Reformers part ways with the Apostles, because the Apostles taught that His grace is no longer alien once we are infused with it. As partakers of the Divine Nature, we are now in HIm, with HIm, and through Him, and as we are sanctified, it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us.

 Saying Catholics believe it’s “inherent” makes it sound like they believe it originated from within rather than from without (and so this is a poorly chosen word in my opinion to describe the Catholic view and gives a distorted picture for Protestant audiences).

I can see your point. Infused might be a better word, but no matter how you look at it, the gulf between the views will out at some point. We are either snow covered dunghills, or we are created anew in Christ. You can’t really have it both ways.

Finally, at the eschatological judgment (final justification) the situation is also the justification of the holy. Believers (who have been made holy by grace) are at this judgment judged (and justified) according to works (Romans 2). While progressive and final justification have the holy person as their object, neither senses of justification are how Catholic interpret most the key passages in Romans where Paul talks about the “justification of the ungodly” (Romans 4:5), and the first sense of justification (initial justification) does not have the holy person as the object of justification.

Yes this is true, and if you are saying this is why “we” need to distinguish, then I see your point.

 

[Vinny213]

No. When we are sealed in baptism, an ontological change takes place. We are made partakers of the divine nature. God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. We are being transformed from one glory into another. We are UNITED to HIm, in His death and resurrection. We become MEMBERS of Him, and His One Body. Therefore the grace is no longer “alien” or outside the believer, but infused into the person, and one is brought “in Christ”.

I meant to say that the justice which is infused into us at baptism does not originate within us but is in fact alien. The difference with the reformers being that once this righteousness is infused into us it no longer remains alien but becomes ours and inherent to us. With the reformers the alien righteousness remains alien and external to us and never becomes inherent to us. Plus there is no either or in catholic theology, the infused righteousness is alien because it originates from God but is ours because it inheres in us and is inherent. I am simply paraphrasing the theology of Aquinas.

 

[fhansen]

No. When we are sealed in baptism, an ontological change takes place. We are made partakers of the divine nature. God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. We are being transformed from one glory into another. We are UNITED to HIm, in His death and resurrection. We become MEMBERS of Him, and His One Body. Therefore the grace is no longer “alien” or outside the believer, but infused into the person, and one is brought “in Christ”.

I meant to say that the justice which is infused into us at baptism does not originate within us but is in fact alien. The difference with the reformers being that once this righteousness is infused into us it no longer remains alien but becomes ours and inherent to us. With the reformers the alien righteousness remains alien and external to us and never becomes inherent to us. Plus there is no either or in catholic theology, the infused righteousness is alien because it originates from God but is ours because it inheres in us and is inherent. I am simply paraphrasing the theology of Aquinas.

Now that sounds Catholic-and right- to me!

 

[Vinny213]

Yes, this is Catholic teaching.
So the justification of the ungodly does take place in an instant in baptism because grace is infused instantaneously.? So in this case Justification (or initial justification) is not gradual but instantaneous? Am I correct?

 

[guanophore]

So the justification of the ungodly does take place in an instant in baptism because grace is infused instantaneously.? So in this case Justification (or initial justification) is not gradual but instantaneous? Am I correct?

Yes, this is the Teaching of the Apostles, preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Vinny213]

Does anyone know why masses are said for the dead? Is it to get them out of purgatory or for other reasons as well? Plus nobody has told me how time is exactly measured in purgatory. Is it still measured according to earth time like years and centuries, because I know in the past indulgences where measured according to earth time. What does the catechism and councils say about this?

 

[Vinny213]

"And so, when talking about purgatory, it is important to be aware that the Church has officially stated only two truths that must be believed as dogma. These are as follows: one, that there is a purgatory; and two, that the souls in purgatory can be helped by our prayers and sacrifices. All we know with certainty, then, is that purgatory, in fact, exists. For the “church has defined nothing about the nature, place, and duration of purgatory.”

I found this from the following link: opusangelorum.org/formation/purgatory.html
However then I also found this which seems to contradict the previous quote.

“However, if we do not take the initiative and move the Poor Souls to the pool of God’s grace by our prayers and sacrifices, they will languish for years and maybe centuries in the fires of purgatory.”

 

[guanophore]

Does anyone know why masses are said for the dead?

Yes. Every well catechized Catholic and Orthodox Christian knows why.

A read of the books of Macabbees will help you.

Is it to get them out of purgatory or for other reasons as well?

We actually don’t know who is in purgatory, and who is not, unless it is specifically revealed by God, which it ususally is not.

Praying for those who have gone on before us in the faith also strengthens us, and keeps us mindful that we are one Body in Christ.

Plus nobody has told me how time is exactly measured in purgatory.

This question has been answered several times for you Vinny.

If you use the button at the top of the thread called “view first unread” it will keep track of where you were last and you don’t miss as many posts.

Purgatory is outside the space/time continuum, so time cannot be “measured” there.

Is it still measured according to earth time like years and centuries, because I know in the past indulgences where measured according to earth time. What does the catechism and councils say about this?

Yes, in the past, indulgences were measured according to earth time.

In the ancient Church, penances often carried long periods of time, and these same standards of penance were applied to the souls in Purgatory. However, this is a case of persons who are contained within the space/time continuum projecting our concepts into an environment where time does not exist. These links will help you with your questions.

catholic.com/radio/shows/the-bible-blueprint-for-purgatory-7363

catholic.com/speakers/talks/7012

catholic.com/speakers/talks/5951

catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-purgatory-a-catholic-invention-no-way

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

 

[guanophore]

"And so, when talking about purgatory, it is important to be aware that the Church has officially stated only two truths that must be believed as dogma. These are as follows: one, that there is a purgatory; and two, that the souls in purgatory can be helped by our prayers and sacrifices. All we know with certainty, then, is that purgatory, in fact, exists. For the “church has defined nothing about the nature, place, and duration of purgatory.”

I found this from the following link: opusangelorum.org/formation/purgatory.html
However then I also found this which seems to contradict the previous quote.

“However, if we do not take the initiative and move the Poor Souls to the pool of God’s grace by our prayers and sacrifices, they will languish for years and maybe centuries in the fires of purgatory.”

This latter statement does not reflect any official teaching of the CC.

 

[Vinny213]

So you are saying that current catholic teaching does not measure purgatory according to earth time. What do you make of the fact that indulgences were given that were measured in days, weeks and months? Is this no longer done? Those two qoutes that I gave you come from an article that comes from a prominent catholic website. You said that you have read the article. Have you heard of the sabbitine privelage?

 

[guanophore]

So you are saying that current catholic teaching does not measure purgatory according to earth time.

This method of conceptualizing has never been a doctrine of the faith, though it has been a very common way of trying to understand Purgatory.

What do you make of the fact that indulgences were given that were measured in days, weeks and months?

I can think of no other way to explain this other than what I have repeatedly said on this thread. It may be that the links I provided above can do it better.

Is this no longer done?

No. Here is an informative article with some early history of the use of penance and indulgences.

dominicanidaho.org/Indulg_fathers.html

" As was noted in the previous section, early Christians often shared in the penances being carried out by their excommunicated former brethren. In some cases, the Church exercises its authority to lighten the mortifications. Cardinal Gibbons writes:

We find the Bishops of the Church, after the Apostles, wielding this same power (to forgive sins). No one disputes the right, which they claimed from the very first ages, of inflicting canonical penances on grievous criminals, who were subjected to long fasts, severe abstinences, and other mortifications for a period extending from a few days to five or ten years and even to a lifetime, according to the gravity of the offense. The penalties were, in several instances, mitigated or cancelled by the Church, according to her discretion, for a society that can inflict punishment can also remit it. (Gibbons, 1917).

The early Church, therefore, exercised her authority to lessen punishments for scandalous sin. This early usage of indulgences, considered by some to have been developed in the second century of the Church, dates to Apostolic times. James Cardinal Gibbons explains:

The prerogative of granting indulgences has been exercised by the teachers of the Church from the beginning of its existence. St. Paul exercises it in behalf of the incestuous Corinthian whom he condemned to a severe penance proportioned to his guilt, “that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.” And having learned afterwards of the Corinthian’s fervent contrition, the Apostle absolves him from the penance that he had imposed: “To him, that is such a one, this rebuke is sufficient, which is given by many. So that contrawise, you should rather pardon him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with sorrow. … and to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything. . .I have done it in the person of Christ.”

The early church had established lengths of time for the standard penances of certain sins. These same time frames were applied to those who did not live long enough to complete them in this life.

This way of conceptualizing penance is no longer practiced.

 

[guanophore]

So you are saying that current catholic teaching does not measure purgatory according to earth time. What do you make of the fact that indulgences were given that were measured in days, weeks and months? Is this no longer done? Those two qoutes that I gave you come from an article that comes from a prominent catholic website. You said that you have read the article. Have you heard of the sabbitine privelage?

Yes you can read more about it here:

newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm

This is considered a private revelation, and although accepted by the Church, is not binding upon the faithful.

 

[Vinny213]

When did the catholic church stop counting purgatory according to earth time? I think as late as the 19th century the church was still counting purgatory according to earth time. Does the new advent article mention this whole issue?
Could you also explain this in light of the fact that Rome has granted indulgences, measured in days, weeks, etc., and in light of the Sabbatine Privilege?

 

[Anthony_V]

When did the catholic church stop counting purgatory according to earth time? I think as late as the 19th century the church was still counting purgatory according to earth time. Does the new advent article mention this whole issue?
Could you also explain this in light of the fact that Rome has granted indulgences, measured in days, weeks, etc., and in light of the Sabbatine Privilege?

Why does it matter when the Catholic Church stopped counting Purgatory according to Earth time? The Sabbatine Privilege was based on private revelation. While it was written as a papal bull, it was not dogmatic in nature; a Catholic does not have to accept it to go to heaven.

Let me put it this way: time is not essential to the character of Purgatory.

 

[guanophore]

  When did the catholic church stop counting purgatory according to earth time?

Since the CC has never done this, such a question is like “when did you stop beating your wife”. It is based on a false assumptions.

Eastern Catholics/Orthodox, though they were part of the early penances described in the article I linked for you yesterday, never developed or espoused the Western concept of purgatory, much less consider the process of purification according to the space/time continuum in which we find ourselves. Eastern Catholics/Orthodox are much more willing and able to leave such concepts in the form of “mystery”.

That being said, there are persons who were Catholic, and other persons who called themselves Catholic who have counted purgatory according to earth time, and some who have abused the concepts of indulgences and purgatory to the great detriment of the faith (Tetzel, for example).

Such people misrepresenting and abusing the One Faith does not constitute 'church teaching".

 I think as late as the 19th century the church was still counting purgatory according to earth time.

It would not surprise me to learn that there are still Catholics who do this. However, you will not find this in the Teaching of the Church as represented in the Catechism, or any doctrines of the faith.

Does the new advent article mention this whole issue?

The New Advent article explains the concepts of purgatory and indulgences as they are understood in the Western mindset. Since the “counting of time” in Purgatory is not part of the doctrines of the faith, it will not be found in the official teaching documents of the Church such as the Catechism.

Could you also explain this in light of the fact that Rome has granted indulgences, measured in days, weeks, etc., and in light of the Sabbatine Privilege?

The granting of indulgences is a pastoral perogative of the Bishop. It is not a requirement of the faith.

How various Bishops over the course of centuries organize the granting of indulgences is a reflection of the times.