Questions on Trent

[Vinny213]

It would not surprise me to learn that there are still Catholics who do this. However, you will not find this in the Teaching of the Church as represented in the Catechism, or any doctrines of the faith.

What did Trent, Vatican 1 and 2 say about time in purgatory? You mentioned that the catechism (I am assuming you mean the modern one published in 1994) does not talk about time in purgatory. Have you read the opusangeaolrum article that I sent you? I think that website is sanctioned by the Vatican. What have modern popes like Ratzinger and John Paul the II said about time in purgatory? I know popes in the last couple of centuries still counted indulgences according to earth time.

 

[Vinny213]

Since the CC has never done this, such a question is like “when did you stop beating your wife”. It is based on a false assumptions.

But as late as last century it has been done.

 

[Vinny213]

Faith is the beginning of salvation, the foundation and root of justification; by virtue of the faith which he believes, man can be justified even if he dies before receiving the sacrament.

2bb Justification is the transition to the state of grace and adoption as children; justification means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Justification is both the "justice of God’ and “our justice”; man cooperates in his redemption.

…

2cb Sanctifying grace–the grace of justification-- eliminates all that has the character of sin; justification, however, does not consist solely in the remission of sins; it brings about the sanctification of the interior man; into man are infused the virtues of faith, hope, and charity.

So faith in order to be justifying in Catholicism must be united to charity and hope right? Trust is not sufficient because it is only one of the three virtues and unless the other two are added then it will suffice. Is faith considered a merit for initial justification, does that not contradict the idea that faith is a gift given to us by God? I thought we don’t merit initial justification in anyway and that we bring no merits to the table when we are justified at baptism.

 

[Vinny213]

God wants man truly, ontologically, just, not merely declared just. Otherwise He’d be in the awkward position of giving man laws he couldn’t possibly obey, then blaming him for disobedience anyway, then sort of capriciously deciding at some later date to forgive sins and declare man just-at least some-in spite of his sin. God’s creation, in this case, remains soiled, out of sync with His will, with sinners apparently entering heaven.

That is why we need an imputed righteousness I guess. Does not God accept the ungodly though? When we are first justified at baptism we are still sinners and not ontologically just yet, right?

 

[fhansen]

Faith is the beginning of salvation, the foundation and root of justification; by virtue of the faith which he believes, man can be justified even if he dies before receiving the sacrament.

2bb Justification is the transition to the state of grace and adoption as children; justification means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Justification is both the "justice of God’ and “our justice”; man cooperates in his redemption.

…

2cb Sanctifying grace–the grace of justification-- eliminates all that has the character of sin; justification, however, does not consist solely in the remission of sins; it brings about the sanctification of the interior man; into man are infused the virtues of faith, hope, and charity.

So faith in order to be justifying in Catholicism must be united to charity and hope right? Trust is not sufficient because it is only one of the three virtues and unless the other two are added then it will suffice. Is faith considered a merit for initial justification, does that not contradict the idea that faith is a gift given to us by God? I thought we don’t merit initial justification in anyway and that we bring no merits to the table when we are justified at baptism.

Like all gifts of grace, faith can be resisted/rejected, we’re never forced to cooperate:
**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42**

‘Moving towards justice’, begins, after grace, with faith. But our justice in no way ends there. In Catholic theology faith, as a theological virtue doesn’t necessarily imply trust. Faith is the supernatural ability to know things to be true-to be able to intellectually assent to those truths-without the benefit of sight/empirical proof. Hope gives us the ability to place our trust and confidence in revealed truths and their corresponding promises.

In any case we’re to do the best we can with what we’re given- we’re expected to invest the gifts we have- as the Parable of the Talents explains. For someone who, say, has no opportunity except to express his faith and hope, and at least the beginnings of love, as the thief on the cross did, that’s all that can be expected. For someone who lives longer and has the opportunity to be Baptized, knowing that this is commanded by Jesus through the Catholic faith, then Baptism would be expected. If someone lives beyond Baptism, then growth in faith, hope, and love would be expected, with fruits expressing those virtues.

The reason that scripture tells us we’ll be judged by what we do, as per Matt 25:31-46, for example, is simply because works, in general, reveal where are hearts are at, and scripture tells us that God judges by the heart. This doesn’t mean we can’t fake justice/righteousness-it’s done all the time, in fact. This is what Paul was getting at. As a Pharisee he excelled at fulfilling the Law. But did he really? No, he was only putting on a pretense-a show-of righteousness because he was lacking the only authentic motivator for righteousness, which is love. So mere obedience of the law is worthless, as is mere works of any kind if they’re not motivated by love, which is available to the degree God desires in us only by grace, i.e. only from Him, whom we must turn to in order to have it. As St John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, put it:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[fhansen]

God wants man truly, ontologically, just, not merely declared just. Otherwise He’d be in the awkward position of giving man laws he couldn’t possibly obey, then blaming him for disobedience anyway, then sort of capriciously deciding at some later date to forgive sins and declare man just-at least some-in spite of his sin. God’s creation, in this case, remains soiled, out of sync with His will, with sinners apparently entering heaven.

That is why we need an imputed righteousness I guess. Does not God accept the ungodly though? When we are first justified at baptism we are still sinners and not ontologically just yet, right?

And yet scripture tells us that sinners don’t enter heaven. This is one reason why the doctrine of purgatory/final purification, held in one form or another by all the ancient Churches, makes so much sense. Of course God wants His creation to be ontologically just! He certainly didn’t create sin, or desire His creation to sin! Sin is opposition to His will, in fact. Sin is what caused all the mess to begin with-sin is exactly what separates man from God. God is in the “business” of rectifying that fact, not ignoring it.

 

[Vinny213]

But when we first enter in a relationship with God at baptism we are still sinners. We are not ontologically just yet when we approach the baptismal font with our faith and will. So in initial justification God accepts us in our sin nature, though he does change our nature by infusing the virtues in us at baptism. At the final judgement God does not accept sinners in heaven because we are expected to do something with the gifts we have received. Protestants say imputed rightousness is what allows sinners to enter heaven, though I find no more scriptural evidence for that doctrine then I do for purgatory.

 

[fhansen]

But when we first enter in a relationship with God at baptism we are still sinners. We are not ontologically just yet when we approach the baptismal font with our faith and will. So in initial justification God accepts us in our sin nature, though he does change our nature by infusing the virtues in us at baptism. At the final judgement God does not accept sinners in heaven because we are expected to do something with the gifts we have received. Protestants say imputed rightousness is what allows sinners to enter heaven, though I find no more scriptural evidence for that doctrine then I do for purgatory.

Still, if a person dies without Baptism while he would’ve otherwise obtained it if possible, his faith would suffice as a Baptism of desire. Or, if invincibly ignorant of commands such as Baptism, but faithful nonetheless, ontological justice could still be his.

 

[Vinny213]

Where does scripture say that sinners don’t enter heaven? What is a sinner? Someone who dies in mortal sin? Is it possible to die without venial sins? I don’t think God demand absoloute perfection from us. He does grade on the curve.

 

[Vinny213]

So we can become ontologically just and obtain infused grace outside of baptism? God has to infuse grace into us before he can accept us right? Where does scripture say that sinners can’t enter heaven?

 

[Vinny213]

Can people be ontologically just without grace? That is pelagianism.

 

[fhansen]

Where does scripture say that sinners don’t enter heaven? What is a sinner? Someone who dies in mortal sin? Is it possible to die without venial sins? I don’t think God demand absoloute perfection from us. He does grade on the curve.

**Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Gal 6:7-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5: 3-5

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev 21:6-8

**

 

[fhansen]

Can people be ontologically just without grace? That is pelagianism.

Catholcism teaches that God can give grace as He wills, outside of His sacraments if necessary.

 

[fhansen]

Where does scripture say that sinners don’t enter heaven? What is a sinner? Someone who dies in mortal sin? Is it possible to die without venial sins? I don’t think God demand absoloute perfection from us. He does grade on the curve.

You have to understand that sin, in the end, is rebellion against God. It’s more than simply ‘doing bad stuff’. It’s to oppose Gods will, it’s to place other things before Him, the ultimate Good, to be inordinately attached to those lesser things. And God is what makes heaven what it is; the vision of God is the source of unending happiness and satisfaction for man- the only source.

So to will anything other than God first above all else means we’re probably not even capable of “seeing” Him - because we simply aren’t sold out to that vision yet. And to sin mortally, by continuously, adamantly placing pride and selfish desires above love, above God, is to eternally reject Him. And the absence of God is hell.

 

[PJM]

Vinny213
With respect to justifying faith, what is considered justifying faith in Roman Catholicism and how does it differ from the protestant conception? Is trust in God’s mercy completely out of the question in the catholic definition of justifying faith? I heard that faith is a virtue in Roman Catholicism so correct me if I’m wrong.

Hi Vinny; may I respond to both your post?

“Faith, Hope and Charity” are the 3 Theological Virtues of the CC

Because of Numerous Protestant Communions, each with there own understanding One answer can’t apply to "all’.

Protestants frequently hold two positions that are at least similar; if not alike.

Salvation by Faith Alone; and Once Saved Always Saved

Here is a site you can check out

Sacred Narratives

Like many Christians, Methodists believe that fallen humans are saved when their sins are forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. John Wesley's distinctions between prevenient, justifying, and sanctifying grace distinguish Methodists from other Protestant Christians.

www.patheos.com

Wesley distinguished three different types of grace: prevenient, justifying, and sanctifying grace….Prevenient grace is always present to everyone, making it possible for all to know of God’s love.It is in part up to each person to respond to this love.If individuals accept God’s love they are given justifying grace; that is, by God’s grace their sins are forgiven.On the issue of justification (forgiveness) by God’s grace alone, without merit on our part, Wesley agrees completely with the three major reformers. Finally, with justifying grace that forgives your sins comes sanctifying grace, which (with God’s help) makes it possible to live a life that approaches and can realize sinless perfection. End Quote

These positions are reached [and are reachable ONLY by culling passages that support their desired positions. This is a GROSS violation of the One Infallible rule for right understanding of the Bible:

***NEVER EVER; CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE TEACHING IN THE BIBLE MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER TEACHING! Where this even a possibility [its NOT!] the entire bible would be wothless to teach or learn ones faith.:*thumbsup:

The difference has to do with “GRACE”. Type and its power and effects.

Clearly salvation is a PROCESS that begings with Grace, leads to an Offer of Grace and if accepted can then lead to “Faith.” BUT that is the beginning, not the END.

John 3:5 commands w/ Mt. 28:19 Baptism
Mt. 19:17 commands continued obedience to the Commandments, which BTW are not just 10; but 10 catagories of possible sins.

It is acknowledged by all seeminly that “sins MUST be forgiven.” Protestants hold that “Belief in Christ as God” WARRANTS God giving complete and total “Justification” based ONLY on this Faith.

This is not what God teaches and commands. Forgiveness of sins wich are ON-GOING in most "believers"1 John 1: 8-10. And MANY are in “Mortla sin” [unto spiritual death] 1 John 5:16-17.

Jesus Himself Ordained and Commands how HE WILL forgive sins; following OT Tradition of using Priest [Lev, 4 and 5]; now Perfected as we to MUST be. Gen. 17:1, Mt. 5:48 and the ONLY way that happens is John 20: 19-23 **

=Vinn: ]But when we first enter in a relationship with God at baptism we are still sinners. We are not ontologically just yet when we approach the baptismal font with our faith and will. So in initial justification God accepts us in our sin nature, though he does change our nature by infusing the virtues in us at baptism. At the final judgement God does not accept sinners in heaven because we are expected to do something with the gifts we have received. Protestants say imputed rightousness is what allows sinners to enter heaven, though I find no more scriptural evidence for that doctrine then I do for purgatory.

PURGATORY is in the “bible” [which BTW is NOT in the bible either]

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

BECAUSE GOD IS PERFCET ONLY THOSE WHO 2 R PERFECT CAN GET INTO HEAVEN. Purgatory is sort of a 'Soul-Wash" that permits ALL who die w/o unforgiven
Mortal sins through the sacrament of Confession to go THROUGH Purgatory and end in heaven.

God CANNOT amd most certainly will NOT judge protestants different than catholics.

Becaus there is Only One God; LOGICALLY there can and is ONLY One set of Faith beliefs. READ Mt.28:19-20 carefully. cf. "What I Jesus taught 2 U “my Apostles ONLY”

GO! and theach the Entire World mandating Papal succession to accomplish it!.
to you MY Apostles ALONE is the Command and Mandate! And through then todays CC.

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

 

[guanophore]

If you would use the quote button at the bottom of the post, the contents of the previous poster will load into the window and it will be clear whose comments you are quoting.

What did Trent, Vatican 1 and 2 say about time in purgatory?

Trent primarily was convened to answer heresies and the focus was on defining doctrines of the faith, specifically the nature of justification, sanctification, and clarifying indulgences in the face of gross abuses. The doctrine on purgatory was focused on rebutting the heterodoxies rampant that we did not need purification after death.

At Trent the previous practice of accepting monetary and other pecuniary gifts on behalf of suffering souls was discontinued. Indulgences have never been “for sale”, but to prevent abuses or even the appearance that they could be, the Council decreed this change.

Vatican did not define any new doctrines, as it was primarily a pastoral council directed toward praxis.

You mentioned that the catechism (I am assuming you mean the modern one published in 1994) does not talk about time in purgatory.

Yes. Catholics are bound to believe that the holy souls that have gone on before us exist in a state of being purified so they can have the beatific vision, and that our prayers and acts of penance can benefit them on their journey. However there are no binding doctrines about time.

Have you read the opusangeaolrum article that I sent you? I think that website is sanctioned by the Vatican. What have modern popes like Ratzinger and John Paul the II said about time in purgatory? I know popes in the last couple of centuries still counted indulgences according to earth time.

Yes, indulgences have still be counted in earth time, and this has not been prohibited by the Vatican, to my knowledge. What the Holy Fathers encourage in us is that we pray for one another, including those who have completed their race and have run for the prize. We pray for them at every Mass, and offer other penances for them as well.

Were you able to read the books of Macabees?

 

[Vinny213]

I appreciate the Wesley quote. I noticed that there is alot a catholic can agree on with him. The preveniant grace part is clearly compatible with catholic teaching. The part about our sins being forgiven freely without any merits on our parts in justification is also a good reflection of catholic teaching on initial justification and how we can never merit the grace given to us at baptism in initial justification. We bring no merits or good works at baptism and initial justification. I think were catholic teaching differs from wesley is on the issue of imputed rightousness and the nature of justifcation (declare rightous vs make rightous). I disagree with the fact that we have to be perfect to enter heaven. God is mercyful and does not demand strict obediance. Plus purgatory is manily to pay the remaining debt due to our temporal punishment.

 

[guanophore]

But when we first enter in a relationship with God at baptism we are still sinners. We are not ontologically just yet when we approach the baptismal font with our faith and will.

Yes. God justifies the ungodly. Jesus came to call sinners, not the righteous.

 So in initial justification God accepts us in our sin nature, though he does change our nature by infusing the virtues in us at baptism.

Yes and no. We are born from above, and adopted as sons, and He places His Spirit within us. But our “sin nature” is not gone. We are washed of all sins, original and personal, but we still have a tendency toward the desires of the flesh, referred to in Scripture as the carnal nature, or the “flesh”. The Latin Church calls this “concupiscence” (tendency to turn away from God). We struggle with the carnal man as long as we are in the flesh.

At the final judgement God does not accept sinners in heaven because we are expected to do something with the gifts we have received. Protestants say imputed rightousness is what allows sinners to enter heaven, though I find no more scriptural evidence for that doctrine then I do for purgatory.

Yes, imputed righteousness does allow us to be made ready for heaven. We are changed, and our sin nature is gradually replaced by divine nature. Unlike Protestants, Catholics accept the Apostolic Teaching that what was imputed to us is real, actual grace (infused) as opposed to declared. So we walk by the Spirit, and do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. As He grows in us, our fleshly nature grrows less. In the East, this transformation is called theosis. In the end, it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us. We must decrease, and He must increase.

But as late as last century it has been done.

People used to get baptized for the dead, too. That did not make it part of the doctrine of the faith!

Catholics used to believe the earth was flat, too. They believed the sun revolved around the earth. Catholics believing and practicing certain things based on their lack of knowledge does not make such practices doctrines of the faith.

 

[Vinny213]

Yes, indulgences have still be counted in earth time, and this has not been prohibited by the Vatican, to my knowledge. What the Holy Fathers encourage in us is that we pray for one another, including those who have completed their race and have run for the prize. We pray for them at every Mass, and offer other penances for them as well

So indulgences are still counted in earth time? So has the Vatican defined time in purgatory recently and gone into specifics about that, since according to you they do not prohibit counting time in purgatory according to earth time. Are you familiar with opusolrem website? Have you read that article which pulled those two qoutes on indulgences on?

 

[guanophore]

 Where does scripture say that sinners don't enter heaven?

Rev 21:27
27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

What is a sinner? Someone who dies in mortal sin?

And those who are not in a state of grace in this life.

Is it possible to die without venial sins? I don’t think God demand absoloute perfection from us. He does grade on the curve.

Yes, of course. If holiness were not possible, then God would not ask us to strive for it.

Heb 12:14-15
4 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;

Can people be ontologically just without grace? That is pelagianism.

You are right. The more accurate way to understand those being found just before God outside the visible boundaries of the One Church is that they have responded to the grace that is poured out upon all of humanity, and have conformed their lives according to the natural law of human conscience, in which God’s just demands are written.

So we can become ontologically just and obtain infused grace outside of baptism?

Yes. God has commanded that we become baptized, but He is not confined to baptism. All the OT saints were justified by grace, through faith, prior to the institution of baptism. Read about them in Heb. ch. 11.

Luke 1:5-7
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

God has to infuse grace into us before he can accept us right?

God can accept whoever He wants, however He likes! There is a way in which the HS is present in and through Christians that was not available under the Old Covenant. Jesus said “the least in the Kingdom of Heaven” is greater than John the Baptist, but He also said there was none greater than John. We see many heroic saints in the OT, but Jesus said

John 14:15-17

15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

We know that the OT prophets experienced the HS, but He dwells in believers in a different way.