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Vinny213
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I wonder what people think about my observation of Wesley’s beliefs compared to catholic beliefs in quote 117? I would appreciate some feed back.
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fhansen
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I think it’s important to mention that the “sin nature” is not who we are,-or who we’ve become -as a result of the Fall. The Reformers taught that concupiscence is Original Sin that exists in fallen man. And if this is the case then we’re completely hopeless at overcoming it. In Catholic teaching, man fell to who he naturally is when the Spirit of God is effectively gone, no longer indwelling him. Then man finds himself in a battle; he’s lost those gifts-that grace-that sustained his integrity, his self-control that can only be perfectly maintained as he’s in relationship with and subjugated to God.
But his will isn’t totally compromised; God seeks to draw man’s will into alignment with His, without coercion. Man struggles with sin/concupiscence and this is a good fight, because it’s a struggle with and for our wills, testing and refining us to ultimately detach us from the sin that turns us away and separates us from God.*
And perfection, for man, is simply to be whoever God created us to be, no more and no less, detached from sin.
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fhansen
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I agree in general. There’s much in Methodism I’ve come to appreciate-both before and after I returned to the Church. Wesley’s statements regarding love, for one thing, show a great deal of understanding of that virtue IMO-and of God and His will for us.
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guanophore
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Yes.
And yet, we are in agreement that it is possible to fall from grace, and that not everyone who is made righteous at initial justification will be united with theri heavenly reward.
I am sorry to hear that, because it is God who makes the rules about who dwells with Him for eternity.
Rev 21:26-27
27 But **nothing unclean shall enter **it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The Gk used here for unclean is koinon, common, profane, or defiled (unholy). We cannot enter the presence of God in an unholy state.
Matt 5:48
48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
God is mercyful and does not demand strict obediance. Plus purgatory is manily to pay the remaining debt due to our temporal punishment.
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Vinny213
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I think wesleys teaching about no merit in justification and forgiveness of sins is compatible with catholic teaching on initial justification which happens at baptism. However in catholic teaching unlike wesley justification is both an event and process not just an event since catholic teaching does not have an either or.
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guanophore
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You are right, but they understand sanctification in the same way we understand the process of justification. It is only a semantic difference.
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fhansen
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Wesley was Arminian as well- much closer to Catholicism than Calvinism regarding free will.
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Vinny213
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I think the last qoute which deals with the rightousness of the pharisees does not have to do with attaining moral perfection to get to heaven but more with the fact that the pharisees were wretched sinners whose unrightousness can easily be surpassed by the common person. Jesus is just calling us to a higher standard than the sinful pharisees. The only thing we need to do to get to heaven is not die in a state of mortal or venial sin. There is not a particular degree of holiness that one needs to achieve to get to heaven, that will just drive the common sinner to despair because he figures he can never be good enough to get to heaven. The only thing man has to do is not die in sin or out of a state of grace.
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fhansen
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Yes, Jesus calls us to a higher standard. Not merely our actions, but our hearts must be in the right place first of all. Ontologically just, not only outwardly so, which is simple hypocrisy. Paul said that, as a Pharisee he was by all accounts perfect In terms of obedience to the Law. But he failed miserably nonetheless in being authentically righteous.
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PJM
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OK???
Friend; neither the Bible, the CC or God agree with you
Genesis 17:1 “And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect.”
Deuteronomy 18:13 “Thou shalt be perfect, and without spot before the Lord thy God.”
Ps.18: 30 “This God – his way is perfect; the promise of the LORD proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him”
Luke 6:40 “The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master.”
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt.19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” John.17:23 “I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.” : Rom.12: 2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect”
2 Timothy 3:17 “That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”
Ephesians 6:13 “Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect"
1 Peter 1:16 “Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy”
SO MY FRIEND; IF ONES DIES IN THE “STATE OF GRACE” BUT HAS A “PAYBACK” DUE FOR TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT; AND THAT IS RE-PAID THROUGH PURGATORY; IS NOT THAT PERSON THEN “PERFECTED”
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Vinny213
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But it is impossible for a believer to attain absoloute perfection in this life. Define perfection? What does one have to do to become perfect? God does not go by strict law, he is a loving father not a stern judge. He discplines us like a parent those, therefore he would not keep us out of heaven for small sins. Do you at least agree with my observation of Wesley and catholic teaching on justification?
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fhansen
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Like a good father should, God wants us to be who we were created to be. His purpose is ultimately that creation will be restored to alignment with His perfect will-of course, since He can’t help but know what’s best for us, as well as what gives us the greatest happiness! He’s patient, kind, merciful, and just and grants us with the grace necessary to help us turn fully to Him, even if purgatory is required. He doesn’t insist that perfection is reached in this life, only that we’re on the course towards it to the best we can, utilizing the gifts He gives. He does, however, want us perfect before heaven. And, again, not only because He wants the best from us, but because He wants the best for us. God didn’t create us to sin, or command us to do something we’re incapable of doing, even if we necessarily require His help to do it (which is the point of the New Covenant BTW). Here’s some related (name removed by moderator)ut from Trent, Session 6, chap 9:
**But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. **
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PJM
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So Vinny my friend
"God can’t do ANY “good thing”
OF course He can; and OF course we too are able with His Grace:thumbsup:.HOW can we know this?
BECAUSE OF THE “SAINTS” Big “S”
Are you aware of the process of canonazation?
From Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary
CANONIZATION. Declaration by the Pope that a deceased person is raised to the full honors of the altar, i.e., a saint after previously having been beatified. Two miracles credited to the beatus (feminine: beata) are usually required before canonization to attest the heroic virtue of the saint. Beatification allows veneration of the blessed, canonization requires it. The canonization is celebrated at St. Peter’s and is usually followed by a solemn triduum in another church in the city or elsewhere within a limited time. (Etym. Latin canonizare, to canonize; from canon, catalogue of saints.)
The miracles are God’s afirmation that they were “Perfect” and ARE with Him in Heaven
God Bless my friend,
pat/PJM
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Vinny213
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I understand what people are saying here. I think we are expected to follow and obey Gods commandments to the best of our abilities and strive to preservere and remain in a state of grace in this life. However God does not command strict obediance, but he still wants us to make the most with the gifts were given. Saints are far few and between in this life, though we should become partakers of the divine nature and be deified.
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PJM
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Very good;
we ARE getting closer to the entire truth; step by step.
Vinny; PLEASE look uo Matthrew 19:17 to see if God agrees with you.
Your in my prayers,
pat/Pjm
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Vinny213
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The whole intent of that passage was to let man realize that obeying and keeping the commandments are impossible therefore man should trust in Jesus instead.
Consider this observation from Calvin with respect to the Matthew quote:
“Hence we infer, that this reply of Christ is legal, because it was proper that the young man who inquired about the righteousness of works should first be taught that no man is accounted righteous before God unless he has fulfilled the law, 620 (which is impossible,) that, convinced of his weakness, he might betake himself to the assistance of faith. I acknowledge, therefore, that, as God has promised the reward of eternal life to those who keep his law, we ought to hold by this way, if the weakness of our flesh did not prevent; but Scripture teaches us, that it is through our own fault that it becomes necessary for us to receive as a gift what we cannot obtain by works. If it be objected, that it is in vain to hold out to us the righteousness which is in the law, (Ro 10:5,) which no man will ever be able to reach, I reply, since it is the first part of instruction, by which we are led to the righteousness which is obtained by prayer, it is far from being superfluous; and, therefore, when Paul says, that the doers of the law are justified, (Ro 2:13,) he excludes all from the righteousness of the law.”
Consider this observation from Calvin with respect to the Matthew quote:
“Hence we infer, that this reply of Christ is legal, because it was proper that the young man who inquired about the righteousness of works should first be taught that no man is accounted righteous before God unless he has fulfilled the law, 620 (which is impossible,) that, convinced of his weakness, he might betake himself to the assistance of faith. I acknowledge, therefore, that, as God has promised the reward of eternal life to those who keep his law, we ought to hold by this way, if the weakness of our flesh did not prevent; but Scripture teaches us, that it is through our own fault that it becomes necessary for us to receive as a gift what we cannot obtain by works. If it be objected, that it is in vain to hold out to us the righteousness which is in the law, (Ro 10:5,) which no man will ever be able to reach, I reply, since it is the first part of instruction, by which we are led to the righteousness which is obtained by prayer, it is far from being superfluous; and, therefore, when Paul says, that the doers of the law are justified, (Ro 2:13,) he excludes all from the righteousness of the law.”
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Vinny213
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And this other observation:
“We have no right, therefore, to deny that the keeping of the law is righteousness, by which any man who kept the law perfectly — if there were such a man — would obtain life for himself. But as we are all destitute of the glory of God, (Ro 3:23,) nothing but cursing will be found in the law; and nothing remains for us but to betake ourselves to the undeserved gift of righteousness. And therefore Paul lays down a twofold righteousness, the righteousness of the law, (Ro 10:5,) and the righteousness of faith, (Ro 10:6.) He makes the first to consist in works, and the second, in the free grace of Christ.”
You guys tell me if you think Calvin is mistaken in assuming law-keeping and holy living is impossible.
“We have no right, therefore, to deny that the keeping of the law is righteousness, by which any man who kept the law perfectly — if there were such a man — would obtain life for himself. But as we are all destitute of the glory of God, (Ro 3:23,) nothing but cursing will be found in the law; and nothing remains for us but to betake ourselves to the undeserved gift of righteousness. And therefore Paul lays down a twofold righteousness, the righteousness of the law, (Ro 10:5,) and the righteousness of faith, (Ro 10:6.) He makes the first to consist in works, and the second, in the free grace of Christ.”
You guys tell me if you think Calvin is mistaken in assuming law-keeping and holy living is impossible.
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Vinny213
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Obtaining eternal life requires: a clear perception that Jesus is God; a clear understanding of what God requires, the perfect keeping of His law; hence, an honest evaluation of our inability to do that. These are prerequisite to the exercise of personal faith, which consists of turning from our sin and surrendering our lives to the unqualified Lordship of Jesus Christ!
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fhansen
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Calvin had a hard time figuring this thing out. He presumed that it was impossible for man to fulfill the Law, forgetting that, “with God, all things are possible” (Matt 19:26). This simple truth is the basis of the New Covenant. Man always needed God-we just need to find that out for ourselves first so we may turn, and be healed. No need to twist Jesus’ words in Matt 19:17 when we understand their meaning.
The Law can’t justify man because it only affords an outward show of holiness. Instead we’re to clean the inside first, get our hearts in the right place, and then the outside shines on it’s own. This is only possible via grace. IOW, it’s not impossible for man to fulfill the Law. Why would God give man laws he couldn’t fulfill, then hold him accountable for not fulfilling them? Rather it’s impossible for man to fulfill the Law without grace, without God. Man’s injustice consists of this very fact, that he’s separated from-out of communion with-God. All sin flows from that condition.
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thenobes
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Remember your previous quote from aquinas?
Well, Aquinas answered this. Note the bolded, underlined, and italicized section.
(m.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FS_Q100_A12.html)
Quote:
So the Law saves only by allowing the exercise of faith (according to Aquinas). This accords with the Catholic Church’s teachings.
peace
steve
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