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Vinny213
Guest
Thanks for responding. Can you refresh my memory on what that Aquinas qoute was?
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Vinny213
Guest
Hey Thenobes do you know how Catholcisim has interpeted the following scriptural qoute;
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Has Aquinas expounded on this passage in any way? I think a catholic can interpert it as someone trying to establish his own rightousness outside of grace or trying to create a rightousness that orginates within himself. Christ fulfills the law so that we can all receive rightousness as a gift infused to us when we believe and take a profession of faith at baptism. What do you think? Any thoughts?
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Has Aquinas expounded on this passage in any way? I think a catholic can interpert it as someone trying to establish his own rightousness outside of grace or trying to create a rightousness that orginates within himself. Christ fulfills the law so that we can all receive rightousness as a gift infused to us when we believe and take a profession of faith at baptism. What do you think? Any thoughts?
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PJM
Guest
REALLY?
Have you ever read the Old Testament? Jesus IS the SAME GOD.
Lev. 26:18 “But if you will not yet for all this obey me: I will chastise you seven times more for your sins,”
Psalms 88:33 “I will visit their iniquities with a rod: and their sins with stripes.”
2 Peter 2:4: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment”
Rev. 20:13: “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works”
Psalms 50:7 “For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.”
Eccl. 16:10 “He had not pity on them, destroying the whole nation that extolled themselves in their sins.”
Matt. 5:22: “But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
Matt. 10:28: “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Luke 12:5: “But I will shew you whom you shall fear: fear ye him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him”
GOD IS BOTH “GOOD” AND “JUST” therefore He MUST judge us based on our own decisions; both good and bad.
FORGIVENESS is by Christ THROUGH the Sacrament of Confession… any other way is foolish and HIGH risk, and extremely conditional.
1 John 1:9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.”
John 20:23: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
God Bless,
Pat/PJM
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with you, but one must be mindful of the context. The Jews of Jesus’ day thought that the Pharisees, whose standards were higher than everyone’s, and whose dedication to their religious way of life was superabundant where the epitome of holiness. Jesus even instructed the disciples to do what the Pharisees instructed because they sat on Moses’ seat.
Acts 26:10
I have belonged to the strictest sect of our religion and lived as a Pharisee.
Phil 3:5-6
Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
They were thought to be righteous under the Law, and blameless before God.
Rom 3:1-3
3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much, in every way. For in the first place the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
The Pharisees were considered keepers of the Oracles of God.
I do agree with you that Jesus was calling for a degree of perfection beyond all these externals, but the reason it was so extraordinary to hear is that the common conception was that the Pharisees were the top of the religious heap.
Jesus expects us to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. I agree, that it is not to drive the believer to despair, but the modern notion that we cannot live without sin is a myth. Man was not made for sin, and we don’t HAVE to sin. Christ has defeated sin and death, and His grace shed abroad in our hearts is more than sufficient to keep us in a state of purity.
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guanophore
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No, it is not. This is a modern myth.
Divine perfection is what occurs when we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. God created man without sin. Sin is not part of the image of God in which we are created. Sin entered the world through the Fall, and Jesus triumphed over sin on the cross, therefore, we no longer have to walk in sin If we walk by the Spirit, we will not sin.
I think you correctly identified this above, when you talked about being in a state of grace. We are perfected in Baptism, and it is our responsibility to maintain that purity.
Matt 19:16-26
Then someone came to him and said, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; also, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “I have kept all these; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, but **for God all things are possible.” **
With the grace of God, it is possible to follow HIs commandments, and to break our attachments to material goods.
Both things are true. God’s commandments have not been suspended or “loosened” under the New Covenant. Rather, He places His Spirit withn us to enable us to keep them.
John 14:15-22
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21** They who have my commandments** and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”
God has not commanded us to do something He does not enable us to do .
1 John 5:1-5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
It would be more accurate to say that Wesley retained this aspect of the Catholic faith.
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Vinny213
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“True faith is immediately effectual in securing Justification, though faith works by love and produces the fruits of righteousness, its Justifying efficacy is due solely to its embracing Christ. Saving faith according to the Bible is not only a necessary condition but is sufficient condition for Justification. Rome declares that a person could have such faith without being justified if a person commits a mortal sin, such sin deemed mortal because it kills the grace of Justification even if faith remains intact. Thus, Rome teaches that one can have faith without Justification which is a clear and persistent denial of Sola Fide.”
I found the above qoute from Michael Horton. It shares another concern of mine which has to do with how we can have saving faith and still not be justified. Please let me know if the above comment is in any way inaccurate?
I found the above qoute from Michael Horton. It shares another concern of mine which has to do with how we can have saving faith and still not be justified. Please let me know if the above comment is in any way inaccurate?
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fhansen
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Yes, this is right on. Catholics don’t subscribe to sola fide-“even the demons believe”, etc. And there’s no such term in scripture as “saving faith”:
From the Catechism:
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
From Trent, session 6:
For, although no one can be just, but he toi whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which*[Page 36]Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
“Sola Caritas” might better describe the Catholic concept of the justice God desires in and for man.
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Vinny213
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Thanks for the extensive reponse. I think justifying faith means solely trust in God’s mercy and promises in Protestant theology. But in RC church one must have hope, and love and the other virtues attached to faith in order to be united to God. So trust is not enough then? Is trust considered a theolgical virtue?
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fhansen
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Yes. The term “faith” is often used in Catholicism in similar manner to the Protestant usage, at least insofar as it’s used to describe trust, dependency, reliance on God. But the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love have their own specific meanings in theology. They’re all supernatural virtues, meaning they’re unattainable by man unless obtained as gifts of grace. Technically, faith means intellectual assent to the truths proposed by God to us via the Church, such as belief in God, belief in the Ressurection, the virgin birth, and other such articles of faith. Faith gives us the ability to believe in-to know-what we cannot see. But even that kind of faith by itself puts us at no great advantage over, say, demons, because they believe already; due to their perspective they have no choice but to have this same knowledge regarding Christian truths.
The term “hope”, as the second virtue, actually connotes a stronger meaning than we usually imagine it to; hope is the ability to place ones confidence and trust in the promises proposed by faith. This, together with “faith”, is basically what most are thinking of when they use the term faith, and is what is described in Heb 11:1.
But faith and hope, without love, are still seriously lacking.:
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1Cor 13:13
Faith and even hope can exist without love but the theological virtue of love includes and encompasses all the rest. Man’s justice is incomplete until and unless the other virtues move into this final one.
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guanophore
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No, Vinny. Keeping the commandments is entirely possible. You are right, that one obeys the commandments by grace, through faith, but it is not a matter of “instead”. It is “through”.
Luke 1:5-7
In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Many saints of the OT lived blamelessly before God. You can read about them in Heb. 11.
They all did it the same way we can, by grace, through faith.
Are you seriously going to try to convince persons who have received the Apostolic faith, that what has been handed down to them is not accurate, because some disgruntled lawyer 1600 years after the fact rejects the Truth?
We do not save ourselves by keeping the Law of God. We keep His commandments because of love. He first loved us, and poured HIs Spirit into us, enabling us to follow HIs commandments.
We are saved by grace, through faith, so that we can do the works.
The fact that the Law does not make us righteous does not mean we are unable to keep it.
God does not command us to do that which He does not enable us to do.
Obviously, Calvin did not read the reference of Luke to the parents of John the Baptist. It seems pretty clear that they were able to keep the Law.
Luke 10:25-28
Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”
Jesus was not lying to the teacher of the law.
This is also a position that contradicts Scripture.
Rom 7:16-17
I agree that the law is good.
Gal 5:14
14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Sounds like there might be something other than cursing.
This is certainly true.
Yes, Paul does, but Paul supports that we keep the commandments of God.
The Law does not make us righteous. Grace makes us righteous. That same grace that justifies us before God enables us to follow His commandments.
Yes, he is quite mistaken.
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Vinny213
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I noticed aquinas says that justification is merely remission of sins. This seems to contradict Trent which says that justification includes sanctiifcation and renewal of man. Is there an actual contradiction between the two or am i just imagining one?
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PJM
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hi Vinny,
That IMO seems like a duh
IF and WHEN our sins ARE actually forgiven in the sacrament of Confession which ALLOWS us to KNOW [not simply hope] that they have been; it results in scantification [GRACE] and renewal [Help to avoid sinning again]
God Bless,
Pat/PJM
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Vinny213
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I found this Aquinas quote where he makes a distinction between the two different types of justices in justification. Here it is:
….justification [properly so called] may be taken in two ways. First, according as man is made just by becoming possessed of the habit of justice; secondly, according as he does works of justice, so that in this sense justification is nothing else than the execution of justice. Now justice, like the other virtues, may denote either the acquired or the infused virtue…… The acquired virtue is caused by works; but the infused virtue [of the execution of justice] is caused by God Himself through His grace. The latter is true justice, of which we are speaking now, and in respect of which a man is said to be just before God, according to Rom. 4.2. (10)
it seems that Aquinas is distinguishing between two types of righteousness. Do you know if what he is saying here is compatible with RC teaching and Trent? What does he mean by acquired and true justice? I also realize that Catholicism makes a distinction between infused righteousness which is the formal cause of our justification and inherent and acquired righteousness which we accomplish through moral renewal in progressive justification, the cause and source of that renewal being that infused grace. Any thoughts?
….justification [properly so called] may be taken in two ways. First, according as man is made just by becoming possessed of the habit of justice; secondly, according as he does works of justice, so that in this sense justification is nothing else than the execution of justice. Now justice, like the other virtues, may denote either the acquired or the infused virtue…… The acquired virtue is caused by works; but the infused virtue [of the execution of justice] is caused by God Himself through His grace. The latter is true justice, of which we are speaking now, and in respect of which a man is said to be just before God, according to Rom. 4.2. (10)
it seems that Aquinas is distinguishing between two types of righteousness. Do you know if what he is saying here is compatible with RC teaching and Trent? What does he mean by acquired and true justice? I also realize that Catholicism makes a distinction between infused righteousness which is the formal cause of our justification and inherent and acquired righteousness which we accomplish through moral renewal in progressive justification, the cause and source of that renewal being that infused grace. Any thoughts?
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fhansen
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The quote is from the Summa, VOl II, q113. Actually, according to Aquinas in the same question, grace is infused at the same time as sins are remitted. Grace is our righteousness-the righteousness Adam lost. Remission of sins is sort of the negative aspect of righteousness-the lack of unrighteousness to put it one way. But that’s still inadequate to complete mans integrity. We need grace, continuously, habitually, in order to be who we’re intended to be. And that grace derives directly from God’s love for us. In any case the only authentic righteousness for man comes from God alone-that’s what we’re here to learn. And I think this squares well with Trent, session 6 on justification. Here’s the first paragraph:
“This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.”
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guanophore
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I think what you are seeing here are the two sides of one coin. It is sin which separates us from God, so when our sins are remitted, they no longer stand between the human soul, and the Creator.
Isa 44:23
2 I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud,
and your sins like mist;
return to me, for I have redeemed you.
Ps 103:10-12
10 He does not deal with us according to our sins,
nor requite us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
When our sins are remitted we are restored to a justified state before God. When we are in this state of grace, we are able to participate in the process of sanctification, during which we are made holy through grace.
2 Cor 3:18
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness ****from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
In the East this is called theosis.
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Vinny213
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I understand but what does he mean by acquired righteousness and true righteousness? He seems to be distinguishing between two different types of righteousness. The former justifying us before God and attained before any moral renewal is achieved through progressive justification. That moral renewal being the acquired justice I guess. So justification is not based on the moral renewal achieved by the believer but only on the infused habit given as a gift. Also is Trent talking about initial justification in the following canon:
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
I noticed the following interesting quote about Trent which comes from Jedin’s book:
The Carmelite Vincent de Leone put the Fathers on their guard against a condemnation of the sola fide formula without supplementing it with an accurate explanation of its meaning, on the ground that it is also found, though in another sense, in the writings of many Fathers, for instance in those of St. Hilary of Poitiers, and in those of some other Catholic theologians.
What is the above trying to say?
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
I noticed the following interesting quote about Trent which comes from Jedin’s book:
The Carmelite Vincent de Leone put the Fathers on their guard against a condemnation of the sola fide formula without supplementing it with an accurate explanation of its meaning, on the ground that it is also found, though in another sense, in the writings of many Fathers, for instance in those of St. Hilary of Poitiers, and in those of some other Catholic theologians.
What is the above trying to say?
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fhansen
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Yes, Trent is talking about initial justification. Faith alone is insufficient.
And I’m not sure about your quote-the translation seems to be a bit at odds with my version of the Summa. Regarding the two justices, Aquinas distinguishes between one that is aquired by being infused prior to sin-as originally with Adam-while another that is acquired by the transmutation from a state of injustice to justice-from a state of sin to a state of grace. Both are from God.
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guanophore
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At baptism we are placed in right relationship with God. His righteousness is poured into our hearts, and " our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Heb 10:22
If a person dies immediately after baptism, then they have a direct ticket to heaven. This is one reason the ancients used put off being baptized until the last minute of life.
However, most of us live behond that baptism, so we then begin the arduous journey toward personal sanctity. Justification is achieved by BOTH the initial and the progressive work of grace.
Initial justification:
Rom 3:23-26
3 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
And through progressive sanctification:
Rom 2:13
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
The “doing” requires that we participate and work together with the grace of God that has been given to us as a free gift.
Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
No. This canon was designed to combat the one of the “5 solas”, specifically sola fide. The Apostles taught that saving faith is never “alone”. It is always accompanied by faith and hope. Faith that saves is faith that works, so ergos hagios (good works) will always accompany saving faith.
The other sola being addressed here is grace alone, which the Calvanists explicate to mean monergism. On the contrary, the apostles taught that we must work out what is at work in us. In modern theological discussion this position is called “synergism”. Calvanists consider this position to be at least semi-Pelagian.
Vinny213;10226839:
The same thing that the Joint Declaration is saying, essentially that we have essential agreement on initial justification.
Vinny, you are certainly persistent.
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Vinny213
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The Catholic paradigm does not state that good works (by which I mean good works done out of love for God) are “required” for justification. Nor does the paradigm say that good works are “necessary” for justification. I think Jason Stellman had an earlier comment which used the word “necessary”, but I absolutely deny that are “necessary” for justification in my Catholic paradigm.
Furthermore, in no sense can a fallen man “rely on” good works for justification.
The Catholic paradigm is absolutely contrary to this, because in the paradigm, it is absolutely impossible for a human to do a good work (a work pleasing to God), before that person is justified. It’s absolutely impossible because a person can’t do a work which is pleasing to God before that person has been given the supernatural virtue of agape. And if a person were given the virtue of agape, that person would be justified, because God does not give agape until the moment of justification. In justification, the gift of the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and love are all at once, and that person’s former sins are forgiven. This gift is totally gratuitous on the part of God. The gift is not given because of anything pleasing that the person has done, but only because of God’s goodness and love for man, a love by which He gave up his Son to suffer and die for man’s sins
All this is referring to initial justification which is achieved completely through baptism. At baptism we are justified and given a perfect justification. Good works help us to hold on to it and grow in it (progressive justification). I think we need to distiguish between justifcation and increase of justice, because if we dont it seems that we need our good works to come into a state of godliness which is only achieved by being infused with grace at baptism. So yes, justification is in a sense dependent on sanctification. But not in the sense that perfect sanctification is required for justification. But only in the sense that in the process of sanctification, a justified man will do good works, and these works will increase his justification/merit before God.
Furthermore, in no sense can a fallen man “rely on” good works for justification.
The Catholic paradigm is absolutely contrary to this, because in the paradigm, it is absolutely impossible for a human to do a good work (a work pleasing to God), before that person is justified. It’s absolutely impossible because a person can’t do a work which is pleasing to God before that person has been given the supernatural virtue of agape. And if a person were given the virtue of agape, that person would be justified, because God does not give agape until the moment of justification. In justification, the gift of the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and love are all at once, and that person’s former sins are forgiven. This gift is totally gratuitous on the part of God. The gift is not given because of anything pleasing that the person has done, but only because of God’s goodness and love for man, a love by which He gave up his Son to suffer and die for man’s sins
All this is referring to initial justification which is achieved completely through baptism. At baptism we are justified and given a perfect justification. Good works help us to hold on to it and grow in it (progressive justification). I think we need to distiguish between justifcation and increase of justice, because if we dont it seems that we need our good works to come into a state of godliness which is only achieved by being infused with grace at baptism. So yes, justification is in a sense dependent on sanctification. But not in the sense that perfect sanctification is required for justification. But only in the sense that in the process of sanctification, a justified man will do good works, and these works will increase his justification/merit before God.
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, and yet those works are instrumental in keeping him out of hell. Read the Parable of the Talents, noting what happens to the wicked and lazy servant, as well as Matt 25:31-46.
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