Questions re: a traditionalized offering of NOM

[Archbishop_10-K]

Hello, folks. I have a series of very specific questions regarding a “traditionalizing” of the Pauline aka Novus Ordo Mass. My home parish offers it in a very traditional manner, and if their practices are “kosher”, I’d like to be able to make a case for them to the chaplain of my university, which offers the NO Mass in Latin as well, but in a bare-bones style.

1. Is it licit for a priest to say the entire Mass, from beginning to end, from the altar ad Orientem with the Chalice resting there the entire time (like in the Tridentine Mass), rather than from the side during the Liturgy of the Word and final blessing, with the Chalice put to the side? Are there any rubrics to encourage this?
2. Is it licit or encouraged for a priest to retain such customs as the enjoining of the thumb and forefinger after the consecration, or the wearing of the maniple?
3. Are there any churches where extra priests, rather than concelebrate, wear the dalmatic and serve as deacons instead, like the deacon and subdeacon in the Tridentine Mass?
4. What are the norms for the Gospel reading? At my parish, the clergy make a procession with the thurifer, crucifer, torches, MC and deacon out of the sanctuary into the center of the nave, where the deacon incenses the gospel and then chants it while its held up by the MC. This actually seems a lot more solemn and traditional than just reading it from the ambo, but I haven’t seen it done or prescribed anywhere else.
5. Is there a source for petitions in Latin for the General Intercessions, and their musical notations?
6. Where could I find musical notation for Eucharistic Prayer I?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hello, folks. I have a series of very specific questions regarding a “traditionalizing” of the Pauline aka Novus Ordo Mass. My home parish offers it in a very traditional manner, and if their practices are “kosher”, I’d like to be able to make a case for them to the chaplain of my university, which offers the NO Mass in Latin as well, but in a bare-bones style.

1. Is it licit for a priest to say the entire Mass, from beginning to end, from the altar ad Orientem with the Chalice resting there the entire time (like in the Tridentine Mass), rather than from the side during the Liturgy of the Word and final blessing, with the Chalice put to the side? Are there any rubrics to encourage this?
2. Is it licit or encouraged for a priest to retain such customs as the enjoining of the thumb and forefinger after the consecration, or the wearing of the maniple?
3. Are there any churches where extra priests, rather than concelebrate, wear the dalmatic and serve as deacons instead, like the deacon and subdeacon in the Tridentine Mass?
4. What are the norms for the Gospel reading? At my parish, the clergy make a procession with the thurifer, crucifer, torches, MC and deacon out of the sanctuary into the center of the nave, where the deacon incenses the gospel and then chants it while its held up by the MC. This actually seems a lot more solemn and traditional than just reading it from the ambo, but I haven’t seen it done or prescribed anywhere else.
5. Is there a source for petitions in Latin for the General Intercessions, and their musical notations?
6. Where could I find musical notation for Eucharistic Prayer I?

These are personal comments, not specific answers to your questions.

The N.O. can be said ad Orientem , the chalice I’m not sure.
I have seen Traditional vestments used in the N.O.
I have also seen other priests not concelebrate but serve as deacons. I believe the Gospel must be read from the sanctuary, but it can be incensed and processed from the altar to the ambo through the nave. Petitions in Latin? Would anyone understand what they are praying for? The celebrant can sing the entire N.O. and chant the Gospel.

 

[Chatter163]

Hello, folks. I have a series of very specific questions regarding a “traditionalizing” of the Pauline aka Novus Ordo Mass. My home parish offers it in a very traditional manner, and if their practices are “kosher”, I’d like to be able to make a case for them to the chaplain of my university, which offers the NO Mass in Latin as well, but in a bare-bones style.

1. Is it licit for a priest to say the entire Mass, from beginning to end, from the altar ad Orientem with the Chalice resting there the entire time (like in the Tridentine Mass), rather than from the side during the Liturgy of the Word and final blessing, with the Chalice put to the side? Are there any rubrics to encourage this?

There are no rubrics to encourage this.

1. Is it licit or encouraged for a priest to retain such customs as the enjoining of the thumb and forefinger after the consecration, or the wearing of the maniple?

There are no rubrics to encourage this.

1. Are there any churches where extra priests, rather than concelebrate, wear the dalmatic and serve as deacons instead, like the deacon and subdeacon in the Tridentine Mass?

No, one of the main thrusts of the post-VII reforms was for each cleric to act according to his true order. There is no more acting as a deacon; one either is or is not.

1. What are the norms for the Gospel reading? At my parish, the clergy make a procession with the thurifer, crucifer, torches, MC and deacon out of the sanctuary into the center of the nave, where the deacon incenses the gospel and then chants it while its held up by the MC. This actually seems a lot more solemn and traditional than just reading it from the ambo, but I haven’t seen it done or prescribed anywhere else.

The rubrics direct that the gospel be said or sung from the ambo, though candles and incense are appropriate at this point.

1. Is there a source for petitions in Latin for the General Intercessions, and their musical notations?

There are generic Latin forms in the appendix for the English language Sacramentary; these contain no musical forms. When I have heard Latin intercessions, they have always been in simple plainchant.

1. Where could I find musical notation for Eucharistic Prayer I?

Missa in Cantu, published by Solemnes in the late 70’s/early 80’s. It is out of print, but I have a copy. It is simple plainchant, mostly* recto tono*.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Chatter163,

Thanks for the answers.

A couple more questions, though:

No, one of the main thrusts of the post-VII reforms was for each cleric to act according to his true order. There is no more acting as a deacon; one either is or is not.

I thought that bishop is also a priest and a deacon, and a priest is also a deacon; this is why the bishop wears the dalmatic under the chasuble. In the papal ceremonies post-VII, I’ve seen priests and bishops wear dalmatics.

About the musical notation; yes, I meant the neumes for plainchant.

Furthermore about the ambo…

I thought the tradition was actually to have two podiums: one on the epistle side of the altar for the lay lectors, announcements, and secular usage; and one more ornate, elevated pulpit on the gospel side of the altar for the Gospel and the sermon.

 

[AJV]

1. Is it licit or encouraged for a priest to retain such customs as the enjoining of the thumb and forefinger after the consecration, or the wearing of the maniple?

There are no rubrics to encourage this.

I think though that even though there are no rubrics regarding the conjoining, it can still be practiced.

As for the maniple, I would have thought not, but I’ve read somewhere that Cardinal Arinze said it was OK?

Also for the final blessing, it may be given from the altar. The rubrics before the Postcommunion say “ad altare vel ad sedem”

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Br. Rich SFO:

I have also seen other priests not concelebrate but serve as deacons. I believe the Gospel must be read from the sanctuary, but it can be incensed and processed from the altar to the ambo through the nave. Petitions in Latin? Would anyone understand what they are praying for?

Br. Rich,

About the ambo thing, one reason might be because our pulpit is one of those traditional “crystal goblet” pulpits with a flight of stairs and space fit only for one person.

For the petitions in Latin, everyone in the congregation has a missalette printed specially for the parish with the Latin and English translation for everything, including the General Intercessions. I was just wondering if there were more, because we use the same exact formula all the time.

 

[Artfulldodger]

Hello, folks. I have a series of very specific questions regarding a “traditionalizing” of the Pauline aka Novus Ordo Mass. My home parish offers it in a very traditional manner, and if their practices are “kosher”, I’d like to be able to make a case for them to the chaplain of my university, which offers the NO Mass in Latin as well, but in a bare-bones style.

1. Is it licit for a priest to say the entire Mass, from beginning to end, from the altar ad Orientem with the Chalice resting there the entire time (like in the Tridentine Mass), rather than from the side during the Liturgy of the Word and final blessing, with the Chalice put to the side? Are there any rubrics to encourage this?
2. Is it licit or encouraged for a priest to retain such customs as the enjoining of the thumb and forefinger after the consecration, or the wearing of the maniple?
3. Are there any churches where extra priests, rather than concelebrate, wear the dalmatic and serve as deacons instead, like the deacon and subdeacon in the Tridentine Mass?
4. What are the norms for the Gospel reading? At my parish, the clergy make a procession with the thurifer, crucifer, torches, MC and deacon out of the sanctuary into the center of the nave, where the deacon incenses the gospel and then chants it while its held up by the MC. This actually seems a lot more solemn and traditional than just reading it from the ambo, but I haven’t seen it done or prescribed anywhere else.
5. Is there a source for petitions in Latin for the General Intercessions, and their musical notations?
6. Where could I find musical notation for Eucharistic Prayer I?

Say Arch, don’t you think its a question of intent rather than form ?

What I mean is if I was going to approach Almighty God I certainly would have all my ducks in a line if ya know what I mean.

Or do you know what I mean ?

Like Tridentine ==== SACRIFICE

Novus Ordo =-====== MEAL

Anyway hate to be a priest wresting with all that. or is it a question of language and ceremony that makes the day ?