Questions regarding Maronites

[neokarny]

I’m moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish’s website and saw pictures from “First Communion Sunday 2012.” The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?

The page goes on to say, “not only did the children receive their First Holy Communion, their parents and nearly every other man, woman and child also participated, either receiving Jesus in the host or being blessed with the holy chalice.”

So does this mean that Maronites don’t serve the Eucharist under both kinds?

And FWIW, to me, the setup itself looks rather Latin. I’m afraid I’m a bit ignorant regarding the Maronites, but does this look like an average Maronite church? And I don’t just mean the lack of icons, since I know the Syriac Orthodox don’t tend to have too many either. Here’s a picture from the page:

http://stignatiusmaronitecatholicchurch.org/images/stories/children before altar.jpg

 

[MorEphrem]

In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don’t know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.

In the US, Maronite priests and deacons administer communion under both species in the form of intinction. In Lebanon, it was my experience that generally only the celebrant administered both species. If one is unable to receive they are blessed on the head by the ciborium/chalice.

In terms of the church’s setup, sadly we’re very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you’re interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.

I should mention in the US we generally just recycle Protestant and old Latin parishes. In Lebanon, most of the churches have beautiful stonework. Furthermore, since we are a Syriac Church we should have a sanctuary veil (i.e. a curtain that runs in front of the altar like in the link above) although I have seen few. Statues have been banned in the church proper by prescriptions of a synod to restore patrimony rolleyes I believe but no one follows that. We have work to be done.

 

[neokarny]

In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don’t know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.

In the US, Maronite priests and deacons administer communion under both species in the form of intinction. In Lebanon, it was my experience that generally only the celebrant administered both species. If one is unable to receive they are blessed on the head by the ciborium/chalice.

In terms of the church’s setup, sadly we’re very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you’re interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.

I should mention in the US we generally just recycle Protestant and old Latin parishes. In Lebanon, most of the churches have beautiful stonework. Furthermore, since we are a Syriac Church we should have a sanctuary veil (i.e. a curtain that runs in front of the altar like in the link above) although I have seen few. Statues have been banned in the church proper by prescriptions of a synod to restore patrimony rolleyes I believe but no one follows that. We have work to be done.

I see, thank you. I was actually hoping this parish wasn’t too Latinized since I was thinking about giving it a visit after I move. I still might, but it would’ve been nice to see a more traditional Maronite church in person.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I’m moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish’s website and saw pictures from “First Communion Sunday 2012.” The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?

The page goes on to say, “not only did the children receive their First Holy Communion, their parents and nearly every other man, woman and child also participated, either receiving Jesus in the host or being blessed with the holy chalice.”

So does this mean that Maronites don’t serve the Eucharist under both kinds?

And FWIW, to me, the setup itself looks rather Latin. I’m afraid I’m a bit ignorant regarding the Maronites, but does this look like an average Maronite church? And I don’t just mean the lack of icons, since I know the Syriac Orthodox don’t tend to have too many either. Here’s a picture from the page:

http://stignatiusmaronitecatholicchurch.org/images/stories/children before altar.jpg

That looks nothing like the Maronite church I go to. I believe first of all there is normally a veil that covers the area with the tabernacle that is opened sometime during the liturgy. As far as icons are concerned I guess that varies from parish to parish especially if they’re financially strapped. The Maronite church I go to is riddled with icons with a great big one of the Theotokos painted on a dome above the altar. The priest’s vestments look more eastern and he has these cuff things around his wrists and wears this black hat thing kind of like what the Copts wear. There is a lot more incense and the censer has bells on it and there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending). They do serve communion under both species by intinction, that is, they dip the host into the precious blood and place it on the tongue.

 

[CompSciGuy]

In terms of the church’s setup, sadly we’re very very very very Latinized so there are very few churches with proper sanctuary arrangements. If you’re interested in seeing a more authentically Syriac setup (this is a church in Austin, TX): Our Lady of Lebanon.

Oh hahaha! What a coincidence. This just happens to be the parish that I attend. This was what I was describing in my last post.

 

[Denho]

…there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending).

Those are liturgical fans. There are specific names for them in Greek and Syriac, but they served a purpose in ancient times and, like most liturgical apportionments, lost their original uses and gained symbolic ones. Often Syriac fans will have bells on them and will be used at poignant moments of the liturgy, representing the choirs of angels.

You’ll see a very small handful of Maronite parishes using them (TX, SC, FL (at least they used to), MI (they sit on the walls, not sure if they actually use them), and in Syria (if there are any Maronites left…).) but they are fun.

 

[malphono]

Well, it seems some of my Maronite brothers have been here before me but I’ll pipe-up with a few comments anyway. (There’s no escape … ,)

neokarny;10967429:

I’m moving soon to Dayton, OH and out of curiosity I was looking at the local Maronite parish’s website and saw pictures from "First Communion Sunday 2012

." The children are obviously older, so do Maronites separate Chrismation from Baptism like the Latins?

In regards to Chrismation, like other Eastern Churches, it is given at Baptism. I don’t know if this is a recent (i.e. past several decades) restoration.

This was a restoration that began in 1942 with the promulgation of the restored Ritual of Sacraments, and picked-up steam, so-to-speak, in post-conciliar times. Restoration of the practice of infant communion was intended but was blocked by Rome.

The priest’s vestments look more eastern and he has these cuff things around his wrists and wears this black hat thing kind of like what the Copts wear.

I’m hoping he doesn’t wear the hat during Mass. It’s called a tobiyye and is similar to the Coptic 'emmah and the Syriac koub’ono, and should be worn as choir or street dress. It is not liturgical.

The cuffs, however, are liturgical, but unfortunately are rarely seen these days. Beyond that, and as much as I’m nor thrilled with the apparent absence of the cuffs (or, for that matter, the layout of the church in the photo), the priest’s vestments seem to be relatively authentic.

CompSciGuy;10967704:

There is a lot more incense and the censer has bells on it and there are these guys who carry this big circular gold-looking things on sticks (sorry, I am about as knowledgeable about the Maronite church as you, I just started attending).

Those are liturgical fans. There are specific names for them in Greek and Syriac, but they served a purpose in ancient times and, like most liturgical apportionments, lost their original uses and gained symbolic ones. Often Syriac fans will have bells on them and will be used at poignant moments of the liturgy, representing the choirs of angels.

You’ll see a very small handful of Maronite parishes using them (TX, SC, FL (at least they used to), MI (they sit on the walls, not sure if they actually use them), and in Syria (if there are any Maronites left…).) but they are fun.

Use of the fans has become increasingly less common in the post WW I period. These days they are truly another rarity. AFAIK, they are still used in Aleppo but I’m less sure that they’re used elsewhere in Syria (sadly there aren’t very Maronites left there), but I suspect they might be used in Israel.

Anyway, as is the case with the Syriac and Coptic Churches in general, traditionally there are really no “musical instruments” as such, so one major purpose of the fans was as a percussion device (along with one or two other things) to help “keep-time” for the chant at certain times during the service.

And lest I forget, the sanctuary veil is almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Sadly, an ad orientem altar is also a rarity, but is seen somewhat more frequently.

We have work to be done.

Indeed so. The current and unending trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations will ultimately choke the life out of us.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I was also curious about something. At the parish I attend, the priest says mass facing the people. I know so little about the Maronite liturgy still; is this something that came about after Vatican II as with the Latin rite, or has it always been done this way as opposed to ad-orientem?

 

[CompSciGuy]

Indeed so. The current and unending trend of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations will ultimately choke the life out of us.

I agree; I myself could be described as a Latin-rite Catholic but I don’t like it when Eastern Catholic churches try to latinize either. I think the Eastern spirituality and liturgical practices are a tremendously beautiful treasure to the Catholic Church and ought to be preserved and practiced. Stay as eastern as possible.

 

[malphono]

I was also curious about something. At the parish I attend, the priest says mass facing the people. I know so little about the Maronite liturgy still; is this something that came about after Vatican II as with the Latin rite, or has it always been done this way as opposed to ad-orientem?

The versus populum business is 100% a post-conciliar neo-latinization. It is, perhaps, the most obvious sign of the inherent problem within the Maronite Church.

 

[kornblatt]

I wonder if someone out there can tell me the INGREDIENTS, and maybe even PROPORTIONS or RECIPES for the INCENSE used in Maronite churches. I keep trying to re-create it, and I have come close, but it’s just not the same. If there is a brand out there that makes the appropriate recipe, I’d love to have a link to the company.

Thank you all for your assistance.

• Joe

 

[dzheremi]

Why are you doing that, kornblatt?

 

[malphono]

Why are you doing that, kornblatt?

It’s got to be a bad joke. At least I hope that’s all it is.

 

[dzheremi]

I’m mostly curious given the religious affiliation of the poster. Some months ago I remember attending liturgy and afterwards, over the Agape meal, Abouna shared with us a meditation on incense and its proper place in the worship (the COC uses a lot of incense), and he specifically told us that we are not to offer incense ourselves, e.g., in our homes or elsewhere. In the Coptic Orthodox Church, anyway, there are rules regarding who can incense the church, icons, or otherwise handle the censor, and the explanation as to why that’s not an okay thing to do is with reference to Numbers 16 and Korah’s rebellion against Moses and Aaron. The lesson was that we do not want to end up as the rebellious did after taking up the censers themselves. Being a Jew, I would be surprised if the poster did not know this story. So the idea of a Jew (or a Christian!) not taking that lesson, and trying to concoct incense in their own homes for any reason…not to put too fine a point on it, but I wouldn’t want to risk ticking off God like that.

 

[kornblatt]

The poster who responded to me is correct, and yes, I do know these injunctions as written in the first 5 books of Moses. However, as long as one does not use an identical recipe either to that which was used in the 2 Holy Temples in Jerusalem, or to that which is used by a church EXACTLY, incense is permitted. For my religion, it only requires the addition or subtraction of an ingredient, or slightly different proportions. There is no blanket injunction against incense at all; rather the injunction is against using specific types and proportions of incense. I hope this clears things up for any of you who had similar concerns. Anyway, I am looking for the Maronite recipe, so that I may tweak it slightly. (I know it is heavy on Cedar, but otherwise, the components are in significantly smaller proportions.) Besides, all Judeo-Christian-Muslim traditions have essentially the same rules regarding when and how incense is permissible. If it is not made to a church or Holy Temple recipe, one may use incense as air freshener, and it is perfectly permitted. If anyone else has any questions, I’d love to have the opportunity to answer them, especially when one is concerned about a seeming lack of knowledge on my part. (I have studied the Bible and its commentaries quite extensively fr the past 25 years.)

 

[kornblatt]

It’s got to be a bad joke. At least I hope that’s all it is.

I’m a bit offended, poster. As I previously explained, there is a clear Biblical difference between incense (i.e. that which is meant for worship) and the production of a pleasant fragrance, which is completely permissible, especially if one does not use the smoke as part of prayer, ritual, or sanctification of people or items. To those of you who don’t get the difference, I refer you to the many thousands of pages of extensive Rabbinic commentaries regarding that which non-Jews term the Old Testament. Before I would attempt to go anywhere near the permissible/prohibited line, I have studied in exquisite detail the permissions explicitly granted by the Bible and its legitimate interpreters. Think pretty air freshener (which I would venture to say all Judeo-Christian-Muslim traditions permit), activated by combustion, rather than ecclesiastical incense. There is a difference. Ask your religious leader; I expect you would be cautioned to only do this if you know what the rules are (so perhaps you might be discouraged by your religious leader), but to put a fine point on it, that which is not prohibited is, by definition, permitted.

 

[kornblatt]

I wonder if someone out there can tell me the INGREDIENTS, and maybe even PROPORTIONS or RECIPES for the INCENSE used in Maronite churches. I keep trying to re-create it, and I have come close, but it’s just not the same. If there is a brand out there that makes the appropriate recipe, I’d love to have a link to the company.

Thank you all for your assistance.

• Joe

So to clarify my original post, I was looking for leads on ingredients, or even companies who make it. It is easy to adulterate incense by adding an additional ingredient, rendering it useless for religious purposes, but permissible for the simple production of a pleasant aroma in the home. In fact, by having a recipe, I can ensure that I do not make a perfect re-creation of the actual incense used in the churches. I do not mean to offend anyone; rather I wish to learn more. We are all commanded to know our neighbors, and without dialogue, we can’t possibly accomplish this feat. Let’s dialogue, rather than descend into the myre of stereotypes, misunderstandings, and loosely-cloaked insults (i.e. “This must be a joke”). I have not said anything inflammatory, and I do want to initiate a dialogue. The righteous among all people ought to welcome such an opportunity.

 

[kornblatt]

And FYI: Several members of my family converted to Judaism from Maronite Catholicism. (Let’s not debate whether conversion is legal, sanctioned, or ethical; rather, let’s accept the fact that it does happen in all directions, from many religious to many other religions.) As a result, I have spent quite a bit of time in Maronite churches. And I always enjoy the dialogues I have with both religious and congregational leaders, as well as lay-members of the church hierarchy.

My religion does not explicitly prohibit my presence in a church, even during services, as long as I don’t participate. Similarly, I always approach the priest of a church I might attend for a wedding or funeral, for example, to ensure that I wouldn’t offend the leaders or the congregants, and have always been told that Maronites permit non-Christians to sit quietly and observe the service without participation. Therefore, I believe I am on quite solid theological ground.

The Maronite Mass is beautiful, especially the parts spoken or sung in Syriac (a language with which I have familiarity; one of my baccalaureate degrees is in ancient Middle-Eastern languages).

Instead of jabbing at each other, let’s talk. Is that not what Jesus would have preached, until one is confirmed to be a heretic? And, after all, the Book of Revelation is explicit in its statements that the Jews will return to a newly-built third Holy Temple before the end of the world.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, kornblatt. I did not mean to imply that you did not know it – in fact, that’s why I wrote that I would be surprised if you didn’t (as it’s pretty basic stuff; I think Abouna just wanted to remind us, as it was connected to that day’s liturgical activities and readings). That said, it does still call into question why you would want a specifically “Maronite” recipe for your incense, as you are not a Christian. I don’t mean to put you on the spot (I do not wish to make this a debate), but there is Christian symbolism imbued in a church’s use of incense or the censer that would not be appropriate for you as a Jew. And, of course, given that it is intimately connected to the faith and to be used only in that context (cf. the above, about how people aren’t to offer it outside of the church), it’s really not for non-believers, so it is not appropriate that anyone actually give you this information, whether you will “tweak it” or not. Please do not play with the faith of others just because you like the smells of the Maronite incense.

Maronite incense prayer in Syriac

With these clouds of fragrant smoke
And the scent of sweet perfume
O Lord, grant remembrance to
The faithful who died.
All those who with fervent faith
Fed upon your holy flesh
And drank of your sacred blood
Then died in your hope.

Faithfully the just have died
Resurrection is the hope
Awaiting the Lord to come
To give them their due.
Nothing any eye has seen,
Nothing human ear has heard.
Nor what any mind has thought
The worthy receive.

Let us hear the Son who speaks
At the time the dead will hear
The life-giving voice of God
And rice incorrupt
For those who accomplished good.
Resurrection and new life;
But those who accomplished ill
Will stand to be judged

Isaac buried Abraham
While he grieved and mourned for him,
Since life after death was hid,
Unknown to mankind.
But to Moses God appeared,
Speaking with him to reveal
The just and the righteous are
Alive with their God.

A new vessel has been seen
Laden with a great reward
Traversing a stormy sea
Enriched by its store.
Mary is the vessel’s name
Christ within her the reward
Who travels throughout the world
To give mortals life.

 

[kornblatt]

Sorry, kornblatt. I did not mean to imply that you did not know it – in fact, that’s why I wrote that I would be surprised if you didn’t (as it’s pretty basic stuff; I think Abouna just wanted to remind us, as it was connected to that day’s liturgical activities and readings). That said, it does still call into question why you would want a specifically “Maronite” recipe for your incense, as you are not a Christian. I don’t mean to put you on the spot (I do not wish to make this a debate), but there is Christian symbolism imbued in a church’s use of incense or the censer that would not be appropriate for you as a Jew. And, of course, given that it is intimately connected to the faith and to be used only in that context (cf. the above, about how people aren’t to offer it outside of the church), it’s really not for non-believers, so it is not appropriate that anyone actually give you this information, whether you will “tweak it” or not. Please do not play with the faith of others just because you like the smells of the Maronite incense.

Maronite incense prayer in Syriac

With these clouds of fragrant smoke
And the scent of sweet perfume
O Lord, grant remembrance to
The faithful who died.
All those who with fervent faith
Fed upon your holy flesh
And drank of your sacred blood
Then died in your hope.

Faithfully the just have died
Resurrection is the hope
Awaiting the Lord to come
To give them their due.
Nothing any eye has seen,
Nothing human ear has heard.
Nor what any mind has thought
The worthy receive.

Let us hear the Son who speaks
At the time the dead will hear
The life-giving voice of God
And rice incorrupt
For those who accomplished good.
Resurrection and new life;
But those who accomplished ill
Will stand to be judged

Isaac buried Abraham
While he grieved and mourned for him,
Since life after death was hid,
Unknown to mankind.
But to Moses God appeared,
Speaking with him to reveal
The just and the righteous are
Alive with their God.

A new vessel has been seen
Laden with a great reward
Traversing a stormy sea
Enriched by its store.
Mary is the vessel’s name
Christ within her the reward
Who travels throughout the world
To give mortals life.

Thank you for clarifying your concerns. This is the type of dialogue I wish. Quite simply, I believe Maronite incense (with which I am much more familiar than the incense used in any other denominational Catholic church) is one of the most beautiful smells I have ever experienced, and every time I smell it, I am immediately taken back to my great-grandmother’s funeral when I was about ten years old. That is why I want to make a slightly-modified form of said incense. It is not at all meant to disrespect anyone or any beliefs; rather it ought to be seen as flattery. It is an unforgettable smell, and if I can get pretty close to it, it would make me happy to have portions of my home share that scent in a purely secular sense, which (I apologize for repeating myself) is not prohibited in any way, providing the recipe is not exact, and that it is not used in any way for any religious purpose.