Questions regarding modern-day plenary indulgences

[Mike_from_NJ]

Then-pope Benedict XVI granted to Catholics a plenary indulgence which extends from October 2012 to November 2013. I have a few questions for those who can clarify some things for me.

My understanding of Purgatory (and I could be very wrong) is a place for those who have passed on the purify themselves of past sin, so that they can be eventually entered into Heaven.

1. How does an indulgence completed by the living help a deceased person in Purgatory? It would seem to me that Purgatory has a very specific purpose, and whatever happens there has to be between that person and God so that he or she can be made right.
2. If what I have read is correct, the time one spends in Purgatory can be many times greater than that of some one else. Also, no on earth can say how long that would be. Is there truly no limit to the length of time that can be cleared by a plenary indulgence?
3. How does the pope determine what acts will fulfill an indulgence?
4. The one question that most confuses me is this: Why does an act that confers a plenary indulgence during the alloted time not do so beyond that time? In other words, why is there a time limit on the effectiveness of these acts and how is the range of time determined?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DavidFilmer]

1. How does an indulgence completed by the living help a deceased person in Purgatory? It would seem to me that Purgatory has a very specific purpose, and whatever happens there has to be between that person and God so that he or she can be made right.

The Church teaches that prayer can have a positive effect, even if the person who is doing the praying has no personal benefit.

1. If what I have read is correct, the time one spends in Purgatory can be many times greater than that of some one else. Also, no on earth can say how long that would be. Is there truly no limit to the length of time that can be cleared by a plenary indulgence?

You are encumbered with a temporal existence, where your very existence is dolled out to you moment by moment. The Saints in purgatory are beyond such constraints.

1. How does the pope determine what acts will fulfill an indulgence?

How does the Pope define any matter of Doctrine? This is a question for a whole nuther thread.

1. The one question that most confuses me is this: Why does an act that confers a plenary indulgence during the alloted time not do so beyond that time? In other words, why is there a time limit on the effectiveness of these acts and how is the range of time determined?

Ibid.

 

[LilyM]

In answer to your first question, I’d say imagine that a friend or family member of yours goes to jail for failing to pay a debt. If you were able to scrape together money, you may well be able to pay the people they owe money to and persuade the authorities to let them out early because the debt has been repaid. This in essence is what we do for the deceased soul, pay off its debts on its behalf.

In regard your second, It is wrong to think of purgatory in terms of time. Obviously when Jesus returns everyone will either go to heaven or hell, which would mean those who still had to serve ‘time’ would be let out early. Purgatory is outside of time, as are heaven and hell.

The old books and documents speak of ‘300 days indulgence’ or ‘7 years indulgence’ or the like. This is not a reference to ‘time off’ Purgatory, but meant that the prayer was the equivalent of doing 300 days or 7 years so-called ‘canonical penance’ (in the early church people were prescribed these penances which might, for example, include a certain amount of time spent in fasting and prayer).

As for Queston 4, some acts and prayers such as reading scripture for half an hour or more, always carry a partial or plenary indulgence no matter what day or year you do them. Some, such as venerating the Cross on Good Friday, only carry an indulgence if done on the specified day (the practice of public and communal veneration of the cross only occurs on Good Friday, so it would be pointless to grant the indulgence on other days). Others are special indulgences for particular times or years.

A good analogy might be restaurants. A restaurant might offer everyday specials under certain conditions, eg discounts for students or veterans or seniors. Or it might offer special occasion discounts such as special prices on Valentines’ or Mother’s Day. Or the restaurant might, as an example, celebrate the 35th anniversary of its opening by offering certain specials for the whole year.

The reason you gain an indulgence at the specified time and not before or after? Essentially, because you do. A bit like the government declaring an amnesty period for people who are illegal immigrants or illegally own weapons. If such people turn themselves in before or after that amnesty period they suffer the full legal penalties, if during they don’t. Simple as that.

 

[Regina_Love]

If some one you love is hurt, and suffering, of course you would want to help them. If you can reduce their suffering, or help carry their burden you would do it as an act of love. That is what Jesus did for us when he died for us, and opened the gates of Heaven. How pleased is he when we too respond with love, and a desire to help those suffering. God wants all of his family to share in the mission of his Catholic Church, and salvation. He invites us all to be his hands, and feet to serve and love each other. The Holy Spirit invites us to pray for one in other!

 

[Michael_Allen]

Hi Mike

I can see the “benefit” of acts that lead to indulgences - that participating in these acts and prayers is going to deepen our faith. I also see in scripture a call to pray for others to aid them (1John 5:16, for example) - there is a community aspect to our prayers. But I also struggle when this becomes highly specified (e.g. time periods in which the prayer or act “works”). I guess I just focus on the general benefits of acts and prayers of faith - benefits to ourselves and others.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Mike

I can see the “benefit” of acts that lead to indulgences - that participating in these acts and prayers is going to deepen our faith. I also see in scripture a call to pray for others to aid them (1John 5:16, for example) - there is a community aspect to our prayers. But I also struggle when this becomes highly specified (e.g. time periods in which the prayer or act “works”). I guess I just focus on the general benefits of acts and prayers of faith - benefits to ourselves and others.

Well, when I think about it there’s nothing to say that the same benefits aren’t maybe obtainable outside that time period - it’s just that if it is within then we can be certain that they are.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Thank you all for your answers so far.

I think the reason why I’m having trouble with the idea of indulgences by the living for the deceased is that I’ve never interpreted Purgatory as a place of punishment. I’ve always thought of it as a transformative process to make a sinner ready for entry into Heaven. The analogy for me (and again this is only based of my understanding) is if someone takes a test for another to get into medical school. The student gains entry but doesn’t possess the skills and knowledge for medical school.

My questions regarding the Church’s place in plenary indulgences focus on the particulars. In my mind there is no problem with the church speaking generally that doing holy things can reduce one’s time in Puragtory. It’s when it gets into specifics that I become confused.

LilyM, I initially though of coupons but I didn’t believe the analogy holds up. The church doesn’t make the rules, it only announces them based on scripture and sacred tradition. The coupon analogy ends up being more of a manager coming up with a limited time coupon, but we want to make sure that he ran it by the owner first (which is why I have these questions).

DavidFilmer, you noted that this is no different than any other matter of doctrine. I’m not wholly convinced yet. On practically any other thread on CAF, when people question why the Church holds a position on such-and-such matter posters can point to where it derives from. When it comes to why Benedict chose a specific 13 month period and those specific acts, I’d like to know where those positions derive from. Again, I’m here to fill gaps in my knowledge, I’m just not sure that saying the pope can make a proclamation explains why he did so.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you all for your answers so far.

I think the reason why I’m having trouble with the idea of indulgences by the living for the deceased is that I’ve never interpreted Purgatory as a place of punishment. I’ve always thought of it as a transformative process to make a sinner ready for entry into Heaven. The analogy for me (and again this is only based of my understanding) is if someone takes a test for another to get into medical school. The student gains entry but doesn’t possess the skills and knowledge for medical school.

My questions regarding the Church’s place in plenary indulgences focus on the particulars. In my mind there is no problem with the church speaking generally that doing holy things can reduce one’s time in Puragtory. It’s when it gets into specifics that I become confused.

LilyM, I initially though of coupons but I didn’t believe the analogy holds up. The church doesn’t make the rules, it only announces them based on scripture and sacred tradition. The coupon analogy ends up being more of a manager coming up with a limited time coupon, but we want to make sure that he ran it by the owner first (which is why I have these questions).

DavidFilmer, you noted that this is no different than any other matter of doctrine. I’m not wholly convinced yet. On practically any other thread on CAF, when people question why the Church holds a position on such-and-such matter posters can point to where it derives from. When it comes to why Benedict chose a specific 13 month period and those specific acts, I’d like to know where those positions derive from. Again, I’m here to fill gaps in my knowledge, I’m just not sure that saying the pope can make a proclamation explains why he did so.

But in this case the owner has given the manager full power to decide what specials the restaurant offers and when Jesus gave the Apostles (and through them their successors) power to bind and loose. This is an instance of that power being used.

Think about it - priests don’t need to ‘run it by the boss’ to check that someone’s sins are actually forgiven when they pronounce them absolved, or the Mass effectively celebrated when the priest celebrates it.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

But in this case the owner has given the manager full power to decide what specials the restaurant offers and when Jesus gave the Apostles (and through them their successors) power to bind and loose. This is an instance of that power being used.

Think about it - priests don’t need to ‘run it by the boss’ to check that someone’s sins are actually forgiven when they pronounce them absolved, or the Mass effectively celebrated when the priest celebrates it.

I’m not sure it’s in the same ballpark, though. There is an unwavering and unchanged tradition to confession. It would be like if there were only certain dates or seasons where you could confess your sins to a priest; or if a priest announced after Sunday mass that all next week if you confess your sins your spouse’s sins get forgiven at no additional cost.

 

[aemcpa]

Christ instituted the Sacraments, whereas the Church instituted indulgences. So the Church gives, and the Church takes away. There is nothing intrinsic in any particular prayer or action that automatically yields the remission of temporal punishment due to sin, but the Church has the authority to bind and loose, so she can grant some indulgences perpetually and others for a time. Usually this is to encourage a particular movement in the life of the Church. The Jubilee Years are a good example of this, as is the Year of Faith. Nothing intrinsic changes about the prayer or pilgrimage, but if the Church deems it more beneficial for Catholics to do something en masse during a particular year or time so that it becomes a more powerful witness to the world, then she can “incentivize” that action, so to speak for that year or time by attaching additional concrete spiritual benefits to it. Another example of this is that praying for the dead at a cemetery is a partial indulgence, except during the first days of November, when it is plenary. This is because the Church remembers the faithful departed in a particular way on November 1 (All Saints) and November 2 (All Souls), and the Church uses that grant as a way to capitalize on the increased zeal that people naturally have for the dead at that time of year so that more souls will be prayed for. It’s a very practical way that the Church shows her care for souls.

 

[fred_conty]

Mike,
indulgences came from the power of Peter to forgive sins. This power reaches into eternity by forgiving the punishment of eternal punishment. Now if Peter has this power to forgive eternal punishment, then he would also have the power to forgive temporal punishment of purgatory, a lesser punishment.

When a plenary indulgence is given, it is only with certain conditions being fulfilled.
Usually some prayers for some special intentions. For example, communion and confession, along with other prayers. And so the reason for the indulgence is not only for those in purgatory, but for the catholics on earth to encourage them to receive the sacraments and to pray.

Explaining purgatorial time and depth of suffering is another whole thread.

Just some thoughts.