Questions/thoughts regarding Judas

[AzrealGelert]

Hi there,
I am not a member of the Catholic Church, or any other, I am not baptized/christened into any denomination. However, my wife is and ipromised her I would explorer my faith and the Catholic Church a little more, and i am now fulfilling this promise.

Obviously, exploring the Catholic Church leads to certain questions, I am hoping you won’t mind me coming here and asking/discussing something that is on my mind.

I would like to talk about Judas Iscariot. The Catholic Church seems to be really hostile towards Judas, and I fail to see why. Firstly, The Catholic Church has given Sainthood to all the disciples apart from Judas, which I find questionable. He was a disciple of Jesus and fulfilled prophecy. Just as Mary was born to have a Virgin birth, wasn’t Judas born to fulfill his role in the story of Christ?, without him, in fact, Christ could not fulfill his prophecy of resurrection.

Secondly, at the last supper I have heard that Jesus washed all of the feet of the disciples, if this were true could this not be seen as a sign of forgiveness, especially in regards to Judas. More importantly than this, Jesus knew one of them would betray him, and knew it would be Judas to fulfill this prophecy. He kissed Judas and told him to “go quickly, and do what he must”. Could this not be seen as Jesus comforting Judas, and was his way of saying, I know what you are going to do, and it’s ok, hence Jesus said “Must do”. Could this be the first time Jesus forgave someone for their sin before it was committed, although it could be argued that it had already been committed in his heart, and that it was prophecy, so it was inevitable for him to commit this sin. With this said, the possibility of suicide sending Judas to purgatory or hell, could also be put in with the notion that the betrayal was prophecy given to Judas to fulfill as was the his suicide, as it correlates with his betrayal, also, again, Jesus saying the words “do what you must” may not only relate to the betrayal but also the suicide because he knew that Judas would not be able to live with himself.

This brings me on to the suicide itself, which people say is the reason Judas went to purgatory or possibly hell. There is no way that Judas didn’t repent or seek forgiveness when he committed suicide. Regret, relates directly to remorse, which in turn relates to reconciliation. Now Judas regretted, and had so much remorse for the role he played that he killed himself, he killed himself knowing that he would most likely go to hell for what he did, and felt so ashamed for what he did he would rather send himself to hell than live with his action, he willingly (In his knowledge) judged himself as un-savable, and wanted to send himself to hell. Now how much remorse, regret, does that show? I think it shows a complete and utter display of regret, and remorse, which again correlates directly to reconciliation. Surely Judas entered the Kingdom of Heaven due to his obvious remorse and regret for what he did, even though it was his role to play, and was fulfilling Gods prophecy, how could God not forgive him for fulfilling his own prophecy?

I fail to see why there is so harsh treatment of Judas to the point of the Catholic Church saying he is the only one who may be in hell, and making him the only disciple who isn’t canonized. As the Catholic Church did not canonize Judas, is this not a sign of judgment? Who are we to judge anyone, especially a disciple of Jesus, who fulfilled Gods prophecy? Does the Church not think he judged himself enough, by killing himself, and in fact we should show love to him, as he had to fulfill this terrible burden/prophecy? Abraham carried burden, as did Moses, and didn’t Jesus say, “Those who do not pick up their own cross will not be my disciple”? Could this not be Judas’ cross to carry?

Please do not take this as an attack on the Catholic Church, it isn’t, this is an area of the Catholic Church’s beliefs I must question to progress forward as I myself relate to Judas. Why? I find Judas shows humans for what we really are, imperfect, Judas helps us to realize that humans are, and can’t be perfect, so much so, that we are even capable of betraying the son of God, he helps us realize that even being imperfect doesn’t mean we don’t have a role to play, as he did. I also find myself relating to Judas as times I feel I have betrayed Jesus many times throughout my life.

As a side note, is there not talk in revelations about a crown with 12 stars, indicating the 12 disciples (Judas being one of them). Also, as some point didn’t Jesus say to his disciples, you all have a place in heaven with me, or something along those lines?

I thank you for your time in regards to these questions, thoughts regarding Judas. Again this is not an attack on the Catholic Churches position, but more asking what exactly is there position, and the explanation the Catholic Church can provide for my ideas, questions surrounding Judas.

I thank you in advance for reading this, and hope I have made sense to a degree of what I am getting at!
I look forward to hearing from anyone

 

[smad0142]

Welcome to the forum! The post was long and I am in a rush so I will only address part of it.

Judas was not predestined to by the murderer of Christ. He chose to do it. There are a plethora of ways in which Christ could have been handed over to death. One could even argue that since the world was still under the dominion of Satan at the time that even if all humans refused to harm Christ (which is itself a strech because of our fallen human nature) than God the Father would have permitted the demons of hell to unleash their fury on Christ. Judas is maligned because he betrayed Christ, which he did not have to do, and because he seems to have done it partly out of greed. I hope this helps.

 

[adrift]

You and your questions are most welcome here. It is what this site is about.

Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas had not been born.
His suicide was an act of despair. I believe it was the unforgivable sin which is not believing God can forgive you. He was sorry but he didn’t trust God enough nor understood Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness.

I am sorry that Judas didn’t seek fogiveness as Peter did.

 

[faerie114]

he would rather send himself to hell than live with his action, he willingly (In his knowledge) judged himself as un-savable, and wanted to send himself to hell.

I think this statement explains why he is not canonized and recognized by the Church as a ‘good follower’ of Christ. Yes, he did regret his actions and maybe even felt remorse for it. But he didn’t trust in the mercy of Jesus, instead he ‘judged’ himself and found himself unworthy of forgiveness and love. If only he asked for forgiveness from all the other disciples and stayed with them, he would have been there to witness the Resurrection and be forgiven in person by Jesus.
That is my two cents. I also remember a priest saying: There is no sin greater than the mercy of Christ.

God bless!!

 

[EatTheFishPeter]

QUESTIONS OVERLOAD:coolinoff:
1.He traded Christ for 20 pieces of silver. Was too proud to believe God would forgive him. What do you mean by hostile?
2. Nobody except the people in Heaven know where Judas went.
3. The crown of twelve stars:
“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”-Revelations 12:1
This woman is Mary, the stars represent the 12 Tibes and 12 apostles. If you are wondering why there are still 12 stars after what Judas did, Judas Iscariot was replaced by Matthias( read Acts 1:15-26).

 

[surritter]

Judas has free access to all the joys and benefits bestowed on the other Apostles (such as Jesus’ forgiveness) if he had merely accepted those gifts. He betrayed God himself, but that too was forgivable – if he had merely been receptive to God’s forgiveness.
Because of his apparent unwillingness to accept God’s gift, and his final despair, he is definitely different from the other Apostles, and not someone to be held up as an example of a true Christian.

 

[AzrealGelert]

Hi there,

Thanks everyone for discussing this subject. It seems when I have approached some of my wifes friends, and congrigents regarding Judas they seem, in the way they speak, seem hostile.

I am confused why you say Judas didnt believe God would forgive him, when the only thing it does clearly say

“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, **repented **himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”

Doesnt the act of repenting show he did seek forgiveness from God?

Thanks everyone

<3

 

[EatTheFishPeter]

Part of the story of the rich young man:
“Then Peter said to him in reply, ‘We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?’ Jesus said to them, 'Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”-Matt 19:27-28
They are talking about heaven.
(I would recommend reading the whole chapter, and this is The NEW CATHOLIC ANSWER BIBLE, I would recommend getting this if you want to know more about the Roman Catholic faith, It is much easier to use if you don’t have one)

 

[EatTheFishPeter]

What bible are you using? And what is the chapter and verse of this quote? I think either you’re not using a Catholic bible (Vatican approved), or your not quoting it correctly.

 

[AzrealGelert]

I read this from King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.).Maybe i should pick up my wifes Bible

 

[Evan]

Two things.

1. Saints are those the church KNOWS are in heaven. It is not an honorary title given to someone posthumously. Judas was an apostle (so he gets that title), but his final destination is not known.
2. Canonized Saints are to be held up as examples for the faithful to emulate. And betrayal and suicide are not actions the Church encourages. If he had repented and lived a life of heroic virtue afterwards, he would have been canonized. But it’s really hard to repent from a successful suicide event.

 

[surritter]

It probably depends on the translation of the Bible. When that version says that Judas “repented,” it means that he regretted what he had done. That is understandable, but that’s still different from begging for God’s mercy.
The story seems to play out this way: Judas regretted his sin, and in his despair he went out and hanged himself. Isn’t that different from someone who regrets a sin and then goes to the Savior to ask for forgiveness?

 

[Nine_Two]

If you want to look at Judas and why he is held in the light he is, you should compare him with St. Peter.

Both of these individuals betrayed Christ. Judas by leading the Sanhedrin to him, and Peter by denying he ever knew him in Christ’s time of greatest need (compare the women and the Apostle John who stuck by him after the garden).
I think we can all agree that what Judas did was worse, nonetheless Christ had earlier said that “He who denies me will I also deny before the Father”.
Yet Peter is a saint.

Why? Because Peter acknowledged he had done wrong, and he repented, and he went to those whom he betrayed, and asked them for forgiveness. When he had the opportunity, he stood with Christ once more, and quite proudly confessed him.
Later, according to tradition, he would die a martyr.

Judas acknowledged what he had done, and certainly seems to have been sorry he committed the act, but he didn’t go back to the apostles to ask for forgiveness - a requirement of repentance, nor does he seem to have been prayerful about it. Instead he ran off and killed himself - committing further sin.

 

[snarflemike]

Keep in mind that the Church doesn’t decide who is a saint in heaven and who isn’t. The Church receives that revelation from God. So even if Judas was saved, God has not chosen to reveal this (nor has he chosen to reveal that Judas is in hell).

 

[John_Carlton]

I’m going to take a different approach. We don’t know what Judas believed. We do know that suicide is a sin, a coward’s way out. Judas could well have believed in God’s forgiveness even as he took a life which God had given. That changes nothing. What remains is that Judas, knowing and believing, or believing and choosing to disregard, transgressed the commandment against murder. Our lives are not our own, they were purchased with a great price, that being the Crucifixion. Nearly every Catholic Catechism has taught that suicide trangresses the Commandment against murder because we presume to do with a thing God has given that which ought not to be done. As for Judas’ betrayal itself, that’s a complicated topic, I don’t have an answer. In a sense, Judas represents us all, as does Pope Saint Peter, and the entire race of the Jews, and the Gentiles from the start. We have all trangressed the laws of God, and some of us have even seen His face and despite that, chosen to sin. And God forgace them, also to their face. Pope Saint Peter was such a one, he was the head to Judas’ tails. Judas looked upon the face of God and chose to despair, consider that. If you or I saw God’s face, would we have recourse to despair? I should think not. Judas was blessed among men, yet rather than rejoice in his blessings he became so embroiled in his existential dramaturgy that he chose to commit self-murder rather than do the right thing, which is repent. To repent takes a turning of the heart, to repent takes life, Judas traded his life for his sins, what he did was not repentance, what he did was refuse to make amends. It is true the Bible teaches that life must pay for life, but the Bible also teaches that it is not man’s lot to weigh the price of life, which is perhaps why murder is such a dreadful abomination. We don’t know if Judas is in Hell or not, despite that, because God, Who exists outside time may well have visited Judas in his final breaths and offered him repentance. One simply cannot tell. I’m sorry for the lengthiness of my post. I hope that our answers satisfy you and pray that you will find in God’s Holy Church the fullness of the answers you seek.

May God bless you,

 

[AzrealGelert]

I would like to thank you all for your thoughts and opinions, they are all extremely welcome, and interesting! You may ask why i don’t ask my wife (Roman Catholic). Well I promised here I wold explorer my faith, and explore the idea of her Church. In return I wanted to find my own answers, and conclusions on the Church’s beliefs, rather than me asking my questions to her, and receiving her opinions, thus making it awkward if i disagree. So i am looking outside of our house - hope that makes sense.

I think someones opinion/thoughts on such a subject like Judas can be changed in 24hours. So I will take a step back, mate pray on these answers, put some serious thought into everything you have all said, and see where i arrive, and if my questions regarding Judas are now answered, or i am still lingering on an aspect of it, and then maybe return to this post to pick your brains some more!!



Thanks everyone

<3

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Hi there,

Thanks everyone for discussing this subject. It seems when I have approached some of my wifes friends, and congrigents regarding Judas they seem, in the way they speak, seem hostile.

I am confused why you say Judas didnt believe God would forgive him, when the only thing it does clearly say

“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, **repented **himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”

Doesnt the act of repenting show he did seek forgiveness from God?

Thanks everyone

<3

No, he did not seek forgiveness from Christ. He condemned himself to death, he played God, literally. He chose to betray Christ, he could have chosen not to. He chose to resist the forgiveness which he KNEW very well that Christ would offer him, even after the betrayal. And he chose to murder himself rather than be humble and come back into the love and mercy of Jesus.

By the way, most psychologists and psychiatrists agree that suicide is not an act of despair as much as it is an act of anger - at others and/or at one’s self or God. So letting Judas off the hook and saying, “He was depressed because of his actions,” doesn’t jive with what suicidal people really think.

However, NONE OF US know for certain what happened to Judas’ soul after he died.

 

[Church_Militant]

Amazing…my wife and I were just talking about this recently!

I was telling her that the Church teaches that we cannot know the final end of another and that there was certainly much contrition and repentance in Judas’ actions. It’s possible that the reason that Our Lord said it would have been better if he had never been born, was because of this great suffering that his actions brought upon him when he realized what he had done and who Jesus was. We can’t be sure of that.

Still, even though he committed suicide, the Church holds out hope for all such in its teachings.

Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

I would rejoice to find Judas in Heaven when I get there and embrace him.

 

[Koineman]

I am confused why you say Judas didnt believe God would forgive him, when the only thing it does clearly say

“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, **repented **himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”

Doesnt the act of repenting show he did seek forgiveness from God?<3

This is a good question, but to answer it, we have to go to another passage. There is a sorrow that actually produces death according to St. Paul in 2 Corinthians 7:10-11:

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

Note the two kinds of sorrow: godly and worldly. Godly sorrow produces a repentance that leads to salvation, so it is safe to conclude that its opposite–worldly sorrow–does not produce such a repentance. Judas had worldly sorrow, and that explains why he felt remorse over what he did but never repented of his sin. If he had repented of his sin (not just felt remorse), he would not have committed suicide, since true repentance is always accompanied by faith, and faith is always accompanied by hope and love. Someone who has faith, hope and love doesn’t go out and commit suicide because of their guilt. Suicide is born of despair, not hope.

I think that true repentance involves being sorry for sin as sin and not just because of fear of the consequences of that sin. It’s like a criminal who is caught in the wheels of justice: Does he feel bad because he has really hurt others because of his crimes, or is it just because he is afraid of being sentenced to jail (or worse)? Similarly, with us, when we go to confession and repent of sins, is it just because we fear hell, or is it also because our sin offends a holy, good God, who deserves all our praise? Wisely, the Act of Contrition expresses both aspects of repentance.

 

[R_C]

I read a lot of wonderful answers. Indeed, we don’t know where is Judas. All we know is that the Lord said:

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

These are hard words coming from our dearly beloved Lord…if Judas - who was going to betray him - did not faint or repent in tears at these words…!

Also Judas, being one of the Apostles, had seen the fullness of Christ’s power, had his feet washed by the Lord, shared in the Holy Communion receiving the Body of Christ from the hands of Jesus Himself, and yet went to betray Him, betrayal by a kiss. Now S. John tells us that the Lord stood up and identified Himself as the man they were looking for. Furthermore, He did so by saying: “I am”, and we know well what those words mean, so powerful they were that everyone fell back on the ground when the Lord pronounced them.

And yet, what did Judas do? Luke tells us that of all the things he could have done, he approached the Lord and kissed Him. So shocking and sorrowful was this to the Lord that He asked:

Judas, are you betraying the son of man with a kiss?

But indeed St. Mathew reports that Judas “repented” and the Catholic Encyclopedia writes:

though the circumstances of the death of the traitor give too much reason to fear the worst, the Sacred Text does not distinctly reject the possibility of real repentance. And Origen strangely supposed that Judas hanged himself in order to seek Christ in the other world and ask His pardon

“Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned”